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金刻羽 中國劇本 超越社會主義和資本主義

(2023-05-18 06:13:54) 下一個

Keyu Jin, Associate Professor of Economics, Department of Economics

https://www.lse.ac.uk/economics/people/faculty/keyu-jin

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Email: k.jin@lse.ac.ukkeyujin@gmail.com
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Lei Wang:  lei.wang2021@aliyun.com

Education
PhD in Economics, Harvard University, CV
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CFM Associate
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Expertise Details
International Macroeconomics; International Finance and Trade; The Chinese Economy
London School of Economics and Political Science

 

The New China Playbook: Beyond Socialism and Capitalism 

新的中國劇本:超越社會主義和資本主義

by Keyu Jin (Author) May 16 2023

“Keyu Jin is a brilliant thinker.”

 —Tony Blair, former prime minster of the United Kingdom

A myth-dispelling, comprehensive guide to the Chinese economy and its path to ascendancy.

China's economy has been booming for decades now. A formidable and emerging power on the world stage, the China that most Americans picture is only a rough sketch, based on American news coverage, policy, and ways of understanding. 

Enter Keyu Jin: a world-renowned economist who was born in China, educated in the U.S., and is now a tenured professor at the London School of Economics. A person fluent in both Eastern and Western cultures, and a voice of the new generation of Chinese who represent a radical break from the past, Jin is uniquely poised to explain how China became the most successful economic story of our time, as it has shifted from primarily state-owned enterprise to an economy that is thriving in entrepreneurship, and participation in the global economy.

China’s economic realm is colorful and lively, filled with paradoxes and conundrums, and Jin believes that by understanding the Chinese model, the people, the culture and history in its true perspective, one can reconcile what may appear to be contradictions to the Western eye.

What follows is an illuminating account of a burgeoning world power, its past, and its potential future.

新的中國劇本:超越社會主義和資本主義
 
Keyu Jin(作者)2023年5月16日
 
“ Keyu Jin是一個出色的思想家。”  
 - 英國前總理托尼·布萊爾(Tony Blair)
 
神話銷售,《中國經濟及其上升途徑》的全麵指南。
 
數十年來,中國的經濟一直在蓬勃發展。 大多數美國人描繪的中國在世界舞台上的強大而新興的力量隻是基於美國新聞報道,政策和理解方式的粗略草圖。
 
輸入 Keyu Jin:一位世界知名的經濟學家,出生於中國,在美國接受教育,現在是倫敦經濟學院的終身教授。 一個人流利的東方文化和西方文化,以及新一代中國人的聲音,代表了過去的激進突破,吉恩完全準備解釋中國如何成為我們時代最成功的經濟故事,因為它已經改變了 從主要是國有企業到在企業家精神蓬勃發展的經濟,並參與全球經濟。
 
中國的經濟領域是豐富多彩而活潑的,充滿了悖論和難題,而金認為,通過理解中國模式,人民,文化和曆史,從其真正的角度來看,人們可以調和似乎與西方眼睛矛盾的事情。
 
接下來是對新興的世界大國,過去和潛在的未來的啟發性描述。

一個美國不理解的“原版中國”

PETER COY 2023年5月18日
 
金刻羽身在西方,但並沒有西化。她精通英語和法語,曾就讀於哈佛大學,現在倫敦政經學院任教。她在高盛和世界銀行裏遊刃有餘。但她仍然是一個驕傲的中國人。在最近的兩次產假期間,她與父母住在北京。她剛剛寫了一本書,她稱之為“閱讀原版中國”。也就是說,未經過西方視角的過濾。
 
有時令歐洲人和美國人感到驚訝的是,中國人在目睹並享受了西方最好的東西後,仍然偏愛中國。中國不是缺乏民主嗎?對維吾爾人和藏人等少數民族的鎮壓怎麽辦?汙染問題?對台灣的威脅和在南海的進犯?
 
在周二出版的《新中國策略:超越社會主義和資本主義》(The New China Playbook: Beyond Socialism and Capitalism)中,金刻羽沒有忽視中國的缺點和失敗。但是,在中美關係極度緊張之際,她講述了一個值得關注的微妙故事。
 
比如看這樣的數據:美國是民主國家,而中國顯然不是。但2017年至2020年進行的最新“世界價值觀調查”表明,95%的中國參與者對他們的政府充滿信心,而美國的這一比例為33%。同樣,93%的中國參與者認為安全比自由重要;隻有28%的美國人這樣想。
 
“中國的國民認為政府應該在社會和經濟問題上發揮更大的作用,並不認為幹預是對自由的侵犯,”金刻羽寫道。
 
邁向“閱讀原版中國”的第一步,是要明白存在這些巨大的文化差異,就像閱讀波德萊爾著作的法文原版或《瘋狂雜誌》(Mad)的英文原版一樣。
 
金刻羽在全書第一章描述了她在1990年代作為交換生在哈瑞斯曼中學經曆的文化衝撞,那是布朗克斯的一所精英私立學校。在課外,她被問到,“你感到被壓迫嗎?”她很快就參與了地方政治。“一個自豪的共青團員會發現自己沉浸在一個積極參與民主運動、大會和籌款活動的美國家庭中,看上去完全是超現實的,”她寫道。
 
這本書有相當一部分內容在講述中國的經濟奇跡。在最後一章《邁向新範式》中,她寫道,中國領導層“熱切希望”避免廣泛的不平等,因為那會滋生不信任和極端主義。“中國為其人民尋求橄欖形的收入分配,中間龐大,兩頭稀少。”
 
她寫道,中國要求本國的公司“合法、合理、合情”。中國各級政府“需要退居幕後,讓市場和企業家來發揮作用”——但實現這一目標的機製“還未成為新策略的一部分”。
幾周前采訪金刻羽時,我問她是否為了避免冒犯中國領導層而有所保留。“我不談論政治問題,”她說。“坦率地說,這是一部經濟學作品。”她還說:“要意識到在中國,絕大多數問題都在國內,這樣想或許會對美國人有所幫助。中國人並不總是想著美國。”
 
對我來說,她最新穎的一章是關於中國的“市長經濟”。中國渴望擁有賢能的官僚機構(盡管腐敗依然嚴重)。在一個級別上表現出色的官員會被提拔或橫向調動以積累經驗。相比之下,這就好比羅恩·德桑蒂斯為了讓拜登總統把他從佛羅裏達州州長提拔為加利福尼亞州州長而取悅他。
 
鄉鎮、市和省級的政治領導人過去把重點放在原材料產量上,依靠國有企業生產更多的鋼鐵、水泥等。但現在,在金刻羽看來,這些“市長”正專注於利用私營部門的創造力。
但是,我問金刻羽,習近平主席不是要重申政府對經濟“製高點”的控製嗎?“不要過多解讀浮誇的信息,”她回答道。“今天的現實是,私營部門完全掌握了主導權。”她說,最好的證據是中國經濟從新冠限製中緩慢反彈。“之所以不景氣,恰恰是對私營部門缺乏信心,”她說。“呼籲‘國家隊’合力進行大型基礎設施建設的老套路已經行不通了。”
我問她如何看中國領導人對置身事外的“躺平”一代的恐懼。這是真的,她說:“躺平關係到低結婚率和降低期望值。”另一方麵,她說,中國年輕人並沒有完全放棄;他們隻是不想做體力勞動或其他沒有吸引力的工作:“他們感興趣的是通過創新來解決社會問題,而不僅僅是適者生存。”
 
她說,中國年輕人“思想更開放,更有社會意識,更寬容,更能接受多樣性。”但這並不能使他們親美國。“他們喜歡好萊塢和NBA。他們喜歡在西方的經曆,”她說。“但這與他們選擇離家近的地方並創造當地文化並不矛盾。”
 
金刻羽說,回到橄欖形收入分配的比喻,對於中國人來說,“底線是避免美式資本主義。”她說,從本質上講,“中國希望成為一個更大、更明智的德國。更受控的資本主義。”
 
What Americans Don't Understand About China
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/17/opinion/china-keyu-jin.html?_ga=
 
 

Keyu Jin is in the West but not entirely of it. She's fluent in English and French, studied at Harvard and teaches at the London School of Economics. She knows her way around Goldman Sachs and the World Bank. But she is still a proud Chinese. She lived with her parents in Beijing during two recent maternity leaves. And she has just written a book about what she calls “reading China in the original.” Unfiltered, that is, by a Western perspective.

It sometimes comes as a surprise to Europeans and Americans that Chinese people who have seen and enjoyed the best of the West nevertheless prefer China. What about the lack of democracy and the repression of minorities such as the Uyghurs and Tibetans? The pollution? The threats against Taiwan and incursions in the South China Sea?

Jin doesn't ignore China's faults and failings in “The New China Playbook: Beyond Socialism and Capitalism,” which was published on Tuesday. But she tells a nuanced story that deserves attention at a time of extreme tension between China and the United States.

Consider this, for example: The United States is a democracy, and China isn't, of course. But the latest World Values Survey, conducted from 2017 to 2020, indicates that 95 percent of Chinese participants had significant confidence in their government, compared to 33 percent in the United States. Similarly, 93 percent of Chinese participants valued security over freedom; only 28 percent of Americans did so.

“Chinese citizens expect the government to take on larger roles in social and economic issues and do not see interventions as infringements on liberty,” Jin wrote.

Wrapping your mind around those stark cultural differences is the first step toward “reading China in the original,” just as you get more out of reading Baudelaire in the original French or Mad magazine in the original English.

In her opening chapter, Jin described her collision-of-cultures experiences as an exchange student in the 1990s at the Horace Mann School, an elite private school in the Bronx. Outside of class, she was asked, “Do you feel oppressed?” She quickly got involved in local politics. “That a proud Youth League member of the Communist Party could find herself immersed in an American family actively involved in democratic campaigns, conventions and fund-raising seemed utterly surreal,” she wrote.

Much of the book recounts China's economic miracle. In her final chapter, “Toward a New Paradigm,” she wrote that China’s leadership “fervently wishes” to avoid vast inequality that breeds distrust and extremism. “China seeks an olive-shaped income distribution for its people, ample in the middle and narrow at the extremes.”

China, she wrote, requires that its companies be hefa, heli and heqing — that is, lawful, reasonable and empathetic. Chinese government at all levels “will need to recede to the background while letting markets and entrepreneurs do the work” — but the mechanisms for making that happen “are not yet part of the new playbook.”

When I interviewed Jin a couple of weeks ago I asked whether she had pulled punches to avoid offending China's leadership. “I don’t talk about political issues,” she said. “To be frank, this is an economics work.” She added: “Perhaps it would be helpful for Americans to be aware that in China, the problems are overwhelmingly domestic. Chinese are not always thinking about America.”

To me, her freshest chapter is about China's “mayor economy.” China aspires to have a meritocratic bureaucracy (although corruption remains serious). Officials who excel at one level are moved up or transferred laterally to gain experience. For comparison, imagine if Ron DeSantis tried to please President Biden so Biden would promote him to governor of California from governor of Florida.

Political leaders at the township, municipal and provincial levels used to focus on raw output, relying on state-owned enterprise to churn out more steel, cement and so on. But now, in Jin’s view, these “mayors” are focused on harnessing the creativity of the private sector.

But, I asked Jin, isn't President Xi Jinping trying to reassert government control over the “commanding heights” of the economy? “Don't read too much into grandiose messages,” she responded. “The reality today is that the private sector is fully in the driver's seat.” The best evidence of that is the Chinese economy's slow rebound from its Covid shutdown, she said. “The reason it's sluggish is precisely that there's a lack of confidence in the private sector,” she said. “The old playbook of calling on Team China to do large infrastructure, that is no longer working.”

I asked her about Chinese leaders' fears of a disengaged “lying flat” generation. It's real, she said: “Lying flat is associated with few marriages and reduced expectations.” On the other hand, she said, young Chinese aren’t exactly giving up; they just don't want to do manual labor or other unappealing work: “They're interested in innovating to solve society's problems, not just survival of the fittest.”

Young Chinese “are more open-minded, more socially conscious, more tolerant, more accepting of diversity,” she said. But that does not make them pro-American. “They like Hollywood and the N.B.A. and they like their experience in the West,” she said. “But it’s not contradictory with the fact that they choose to be close to home and invent local culture.”

For the Chinese, “the bottom line is to avoid an American-style capitalism,” Jin said, coming back to the metaphor of an olive-shaped income distribution. Essentially, she said, “China wants to be a bigger and smarter Germany. More managed capitalism.”


When people talk about the exorbitant cost of college, they tend to focus on rising sticker prices. But that's wrong in two ways, as this chart based on a report by the College Board shows.

First, sticker prices haven't risen as rapidly as the Consumer Price Index for the past two years. Second, most students don’t pay full freight because they get grants. Average net prices, adjusted for inflation, are back to 2006-2007 levels. But college is still too expensive for low-income students, Phillip Levine, a Wellesley College economist and nonresident fellow of the Brookings Institution, wrote in a report for Brookings last month. “This lack of college affordability for lower-income students, not the dramatic rise in sticker prices which only higher-income students pay, is what should capture our attention,” Levine wrote.


“Everything, everyone, anywhere, anytime — all is open to challenge and criticism.”

— James M. Buchanan, autobiographical essay collected in “Lives of the Laureates: Twenty-Three Nobel Economists,” sixth edition, edited by Roger W. Spencer and David A. Macpherson (2014)

金刻羽:美國真的能理解中國嗎?

DAVID MARCHESE  
 
就像人與人之間的關係那樣,國家之間的關係也很容易建立在無意的誤解、錯誤的假設,以及過於簡化的事實基礎上。倫敦政治經濟學院教授、瑞士信貸董事會成員金刻羽即將出版新書《新的中國戰略手冊》(The New China Playbook),在這本有時具有煽動性、有時令人不安的書中,她試圖重建西方與中國關係的基礎,她認為西方對中國經濟、中國的經濟野心,以及中國如何看待全球競爭的理解存在嚴重缺陷。金刻羽希望通過這種重建來幫助改善中國與其假定的地緣政治對手之間的冷淡關係。金刻羽在北京出生,在哈佛大學獲得了經濟學博士學位,她的父親金立群曾任中國財政部副部長。“我們正處在一個極其危險的世界中,”她說。“如果不做出更大努力來了解彼此的觀點,和平共處恐怕是不可能的。”(金刻羽2022年加入瑞士信貸董事會,之後不久,這家銀行因一係列醜聞和虧損瀕臨崩潰。瑞士信貸已在這次采訪之後被另一家瑞士銀行瑞銀收購。金刻羽通過一名發言人拒絕對瑞士信貸的情況置評。)
 
關於中國經濟以及中共領導人如何看待中美競爭,美國的決策者究竟存在怎樣的誤解中國當前的經濟挑戰是克服中等收入陷阱,這也許是美國不了解的東西。這不都是關於要取代美國成為全球霸主,那會給中國帶來巨大的負擔和責任。我不認為中國已經做好準備或願意承擔那些責任。將中國僅僅視為試圖取代美國的國家隻會引發更多的恐懼。雖然美國可以就真正的國家安全擔憂拿出更好的政策,但在我們看來,美國政府正在做的事情太不符合美國價值了,比如減少發放簽證數量,或限製美國對中國以及中國對美國的投資。這似乎不是合作精神。但了解中國的出發點將是一個進步。
你認為中國的大規模工業間諜活動是這種了解的障礙嗎?中美兩國之間有很多棘手的問題,而且貿易越多,問題也越多。但我們想動態地看中國。中國已發生了很大的變化。中國開始時喜歡走捷徑,想成為一個創新者,想變得偉大。但沒有一個完整的法律框架或可用的規則和法律。中國為加入世界貿易組織有所改變。有趣的是,許多行業研究表明,這些所謂的技術轉讓,或者你所說的盜用,並不像預期的那樣有效。反而是在大家都從同一個地方起步的領域,例如電動汽車,中國能跨越式發展。許多公司說,即使存在技術盜用的風險,中國市場的利潤也豐厚到不可錯過的程度。他們寧願冒那個險。
金刻羽2018年在慕尼黑的一場會議上。
金刻羽2018年在慕尼黑的一場會議上。 GANDALF HAMMERBACHER/PICTURE-ALLIANCE
很明顯,習近平主席正在遠離美國和歐盟,轉向其他政治體製相似的國家,比如俄羅斯或者伊朗。但這些國家不太可能成為中國在美國或歐盟那種層麵上的經濟夥伴。這種轉變對中國的長期經濟增長有什麽影響?中國的世界觀與美歐略有不同,即不同的政治製度、不同的經濟製度共存,以及世界的多極化——我認為這是中國的全球議程之一。當然,從經濟上講,要有更多的貿易。中國仍然堅持這種全球化觀點,但地緣政治使之變得越來越困難。所以我認為,在尋求這種多極平衡的同時,它也稍微受到了推動,與你提到的這些國家當中的一些走得更近。
但是,如果不是政治上的認同,是什麽在推動中國與俄羅斯更緊密地結盟呢?非常坦率地說,經過了緊張局勢加劇、出口管製、認為美國在某種程度上想限製中國在技術創新方麵的發展和進步之後,中國很難說出“讓我們與歐洲和美國攜手吧”。人們認為,大流行早期出現了對中國的妖魔化;唐納德·特朗普在擔任總統期間發表了侵略性言論。發生這種情況後,再說“好吧,讓我們一起處理俄羅斯和烏克蘭這樣的問題”就更困難了。俄羅斯問題——我不是這些方麵的專家——給中國帶來了一些安全考量。中國人認為,一個大幅削弱的俄羅斯可能不符合中國的利益,因為如果人們覺得美國需要尋找一個對手,那麽中國將是下一個。這不是一個三言兩語就能說清楚的問題。
但是說實話,我發現你的書中最有趣——或者說最令人困惑——的其中一點是,感覺你回避了對中國如何運作的道德問題。例如,你說在中國的社交媒體上有一個充滿活力的辯論空間。但在媒體自由方麵,中國的排名一直接近墊底。或者你寫道,中國人民通常願意用安全換取自由。維吾爾人願意做這種交易嗎?書中也沒有提到戶口製度,以及它對待農村人口的方式所引起的人權問題。我想了解你對這些問題的看法,因為對我來說,它們似乎與經濟有關。謝謝你的問題。這個問題可能沒有徹底討論的一個原因是,我的書是關於經濟和政治經濟學的。我想討論有調查和數據的東西。其他這些課題需要更多的專業知識和更徹底的研究,而我還沒有做這些工作。可以肯定的是,現在對媒體的控製比過去多得多。不過,我在書中指出,社交媒體被用於雙向監督。有很多對政府的批評;去年發生了與征地相關的抗議活動。這些都沒有被隱藏。但中國政府確實表現出了大量的家長式作風。官員們認為,不受控製的公共敘事會導致不穩定或更多的分裂。我並不是說人民喜歡這種方式,但當他們被問及安全和自由之間的權衡時,調查顯示,結果與普通美國公民有很大的不同。然後你提到中國的農民工和少數民族這個大問題。數以億計的人處境本可以更好,但情況正在發生變化。這些是持久的挑戰。一方麵,是的,有更多的控製,更少的自由。另一方麵,對於處境更糟糕的人來說,情況也在改善。
維吾爾人的待遇並不完全符合改善狀況的框架。戴維,我理解。對於這個特定的主題,我所掌握的信息太少,我不知道發生了什麽,而且有這麽多不同的說法。我寧願不對此發表不負責任的評論。但現在那裏已經對外人開放了。我認為人們應該去看一看,然後自己做出判斷。這是一個複雜的情況。有改善,也有惡化,我們必須承認這一點。
你是否感覺自己批評中國的能力受到了壓製?歸根結底,我是經濟學家,根據我接受的訓練,我們喜歡說,“好吧,證據在哪裏?”這就是我分析的重點所在。在政策出現錯誤的地方,我非常樂意分享我的觀點。有更多勇敢的人和更多專家可以做到這一點。我想要實現的是用不同的視角來關注經濟問題。
你提到人們在不同的政治製度下願意做出的權衡,你在書中還寫道:“盡管中國對自由市場力量施加了限製,缺乏新聞自由、獨立的司法係統和個人投票權,但我們看到還有其他機製可以回應公民的需求,並應對不平等帶來的威脅。”這個“盡管”非常重要。這讓我想起了那句台詞,“除此之外,林肯夫人,這出戲怎麽樣?”(意為忽略重點——譯注)我想說的是,這些都是我們認為對經濟保持持續增長至關重要的事情。我是說盡管如此,中國仍然表現良好。我並不是說你提到的事情不重要。我傾向於將其描述為中國經濟增長之謎。但我要說的是,在中國建立工廠時起作用的模式不會適用於創新體係,在創新中,你需要人們能夠致富,你需要堅實的知識產權保護,在這方麵你必須有清晰透明的政策和法治。這在上個時代行得通。不一定適用於新時代。
讓我們換一個角度看你的書:在理解美國對華政策方麵,中國領導人的最大盲點是什麽?我認為中國領導人有這樣一種觀念,即美國正在竭盡全力阻止中國的發展。或者他們認為,無論中國做什麽,都不會贏得更多信任。所以我認為這個盲點是,領導層確信這方麵沒有解決辦法。我不覺得是這樣。此外還有,美國認為中國想要取代它。
不是嗎?不是的。中國認為它的經濟應該是世界上最大的,不是因為它富有,而是因為它很大:14億人!但這與在創新能力、軍事實力和實際經濟實力方麵超越美國截然不同。我覺得沒有人會認為這對中國來說是一個現實的目標。同樣,我們對如何看待彼此有非常不同的理解。
金刻羽(右二)2020年在瑞士達沃斯世界經濟論壇。
金刻羽(右二)2020年在瑞士達沃斯世界經濟論壇。 
除了製止工業間諜活動,中國還可以采取哪些具體措施來增強信任?給美國公司、金融機構更多賺錢的機會,更積極地開放各個領域——這將使得出現更多的對話、更多的合作。這是一方麵。其次,美國抵製一些工業間諜活動是可以理解的。但中國最好的技術,目前真正成功的技術,人工智能或電池或其支付係統——所有這些都基於國內競爭。工業間諜源於一開始對知識產權缺乏重視,而美國通過推動中國加強知識產權保護,實際上對中國有利。我認為這種盜用技術的情況呈大幅下降趨勢,因為這實際上不利於中國自己的目標。
下一個問題更像是一個認識論問題。在你的書裏,人們從不同的角度看待相同的情況,這是一個生動的立意。那麽,當你聽到我對中國的勞工政策或媒體自由受到尊重等問題持懷疑態度時,你是否認為我陷入了一種特定的意識形態範式?或者說,我的想法也許本身就是一個示例,是這本書試圖消除的誤解之一?我完全理解,因為1997年我第一次來美國時,同學們問我西藏的人權問題。與此同時,在中國,我們忙於建設、發展和改革。關注點不同。這並不是說經濟手段可以證明不幸的事情是合理的。但是中國是一個在經濟方麵用最短的時間為最多人做出努力的國家。如果你看看新一代,他們在一係列問題上都持開放態度,比他們的父輩要開放得多。他們關心動物權利、工人權利和社會不平等。這種轉變讓我們對中國的進步充滿希望。
這篇采訪對兩次對話進行了編輯和濃縮。David Marchese是《紐約時報雜誌》的特約撰稿人,也是Talk專欄的撰稿人。他最近就離開YouTube采訪了Emma Chamberlain,就一個更愚蠢的美國采訪了Walter Mosley ,就一種新的工作方式采訪了Cal Newport。
March 27, 2023
Can the U.S. See the Truth About China?
By David MarchesePhoto illustration by Bráulio Amado
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/03/27/magazine/keyu-jin-interview.html?_ga=
Just like relationships between people, relationships between countries can all too easily be built on a foundation of unintentional misunderstandings, faulty assumptions and predigested truths. In her forthcoming, at times provocative and disquieting book, “The New China Playbook,” Keyu Jin, a professor at the London School of Economics and a board member at Credit Suisse, is trying to rework the foundation of what she sees as the West’s deeply flawed understanding of China’s economy, its economic ambitions and its attitude toward global competition. And through that work, Jin wants to help improve the frosty relationship between the country and its presumed geo-political opponents. “We’re in an incredibly dangerous world right now,” says Jin, who was born in Beijing and earned her Ph.D. in economics from Harvard and whose father, Jin Liqun, served as a vice minister of finance for China. “Without more effort made to understand each other’s perspectives, peaceful coexistence may not be possible.” (Jin joined the Credit Suisse board in 2022, not long after the bank was shaken by a series of scandals and losses. After this interview was conducted, the bank was sold to UBS, another Swiss bank. Through a spokes-person, Jin declined to comment on Credit Suisse’s situation.)
1  The term for when wages rise in a country but then stall as a result of higher costs and declining competitiveness.
What do U.S. policymakers just not get about China’s economy and the Communist Party leadership’s thinking about competition with America? China’s current economic challenge is to overcome its middle-income trap, something that the United States might not relate to. It’s not all about displacing the United States as global hegemon, which would come with a huge amount of burdens and responsibilities. And I don’t think China is ready or willing to do that. To see China solely as trying to displace the United States is only going to stoke more fears. The United States can come up with better policies regarding real national-security concerns, but the government is doing things that to us are so un-American, like reducing    or curbing investment in China and 
3  For example, restrictions on the sale of semiconductor technology to China enacted by the Biden administration.
 That doesn’t seem to be the spirit of collaboration. But understanding where China is coming from would be a step forward.
Keyu Jin at a conference in Munich in 2018. Gandalf Hammerbacher/Picture-Alliance
4 China’s electric-vehicle market and infrastructure is far and away the world’s largest.
Do you see large-scale Chinese industrial espionage as inhibiting that understanding? There are thorny issues between the two countries, and the more they trade, the more issues there are. But we want to see China as dynamic. It has changed a great deal. China liked to take the shortcuts in the beginning. It wanted to become an innovator, and it wanted to become great. But there was not a complete legal framework or rules and laws in place. China changed so it could join the World Trade Organization. Interestingly enough, these so-called technology transfers, or the misappropriation you mentioned — lots of industry studies show that they don’t work as effectively as they were supposed to. Instead, for example, in the electric-vehicle sector,  where everybody started from the same place, China was able to leapfrog. Lots of companies say that even at the risk of technological misappropriation, China is too lucrative a market to pass over. They would rather take the risk. 
It seems pretty apparent that President Xi Jinping is moving away from the United States and the European Union and toward other countries with politically similar systems, like Russia or Iran. But those countries are unlikely to be economic partners for China on the level of the U.S. or the E.U. What are the implications of that shift for China’s longer-term economic growth? China has a slightly different world vision from the U.S. and maybe from Europe, which is coexistence of different political systems, different economic systems, a multipolar world — I think that’s one of China’s global agendas. Of course, intereconomically, there is much more trade. China still upholds this view of globalization, but geopolitics is making this increasingly difficult. So I would argue that at the same time it seeks this multipolar balance, it is slightly pushed to become closer to some of these countries that you mentioned.
But what’s pushing China toward more closely aligning with Russia if not political affinity? To be very frank, it’s hard to say, “Let’s hold hands with Europe and the United States,” after the increasing tension, the export controls, the view that somehow the United States wants to limit China’s development and advancement in technology innovation. People believe that there was demonization of China early in the pandemic; there was aggressive rhetoric during Donald Trump’s presidency. It’s more difficult after that happens to say, “OK, let’s work on things like Russia and Ukraine.” Russia — and I’m not an expert on these issues — presents some security concerns for China. The Chinese people believe that a substantially weakened Russia might not be in the interest of China, because if there were the sense that the United States needed to seek out an opponent, China would be next. Not an easy answer there.
China has been heavily criticized for detaining more than a million Uyghurs and other Muslim minorities in what its government has referred to as “vocational education and training centers.”
But to be honest, one of the things that I found most interesting — or perplexing — about your book was what felt like an elision of moral questions about how China operates. For example, you say there’s room for a vibrant debate on Chinese social media. But China is consistently ranked near the bottom when it comes to media freedom. Or you write that the Chinese people are generally willing to trade security for freedom. Were the Uyghurs  willing to make that trade? The book also doesn’t mention the human rights questions raised by the hukou system and the 
A classification system that has been used to determine what social services, including education and healthcare, are made available to rural residents. Critics have equated it with apartheid.
 I’m trying to understand your perspective on these issues, because to me they seem connected to economics. I appreciate these questions. One reason it’s probably not thoroughly addressed is because my book is about economics and political economy. I wanted to touch upon points where there were surveys and data. These other subjects require more expertise and more thorough research, which I haven’t done. For sure, there’s much more control over media than in the past. I was pointing out in the book, though, that 
I.e., a way for citizens to monitor their government and vice versa.
 There was a lot of criticism about government; there were protests last year over land seizures. These were not hidden. But the Chinese government does exhibit a great deal of paternalism. Officials think that a public narrative that is uncontrolled can lead to instability or more divisiveness. I’m not saying that the people prefer it that way, but when they’re asked about a trade-off between security and freedom, surveys show a vast 
According to a 2020 World Values Survey, 93 percent of Chinese participants value security over freedom. Only 28 percent of Americans responded similarly.
 Then you touched upon the huge issues of the migrant workers, the minorities in China. There are hundreds of millions people who could be in a better position, but things are changing. These are enduring challenges. On the one hand, yes, there’s more control, less liberty. On the other hand, there is an improving situation for people with more dire situations.
Jin (second from right) at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, 2020. Greg Beadle/World Economic Forum
The treatment of the Uyghurs doesn’t quite fit the framework of an improving situation. David, I understand. This particular subject is something where I have so little information and I don’t know what’s going on and there’s so many different accounts. I prefer not to comment on this and be irresponsible. But it is open for visits now.
Tourism travel to the Xinjiang region, home to many of China’s Uyghurs, had previously been subject to restrictions, and Uyghurs were prevented from leaving the region. Foreign visitors also had surveillance apps installed on their cellphones.
 I think people should go take a look, then make a judgment on their own. It’s a complex situation. There are improvements, there are deteriorations, and we have to recognize that.
Do you feel inhibited in your ability to be critical of China? I’m an economist at the end of the day, and the way I’m trained, we like to say, “OK, where is the evidence?” That’s how I like to focus my analysis. Where there are policy mistakes, I’d be more than happy to share my views. There are more courageous people and more experts who can do that. What I’m trying to accomplish is using a different lens to focus on economic issues.
You mentioned the trade-offs that people are willing to make within different political systems, which you also write about in the book: “Despite the limits China imposes on free-market forces, the absence of a free press, independent judicial system and the individual right to vote, we see there are other mechanisms in place to respond to the needs of its citizens and to address the threats posed by inequality.” That “despite” is doing a lot of work. It reminds me of that line, “Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?” I was trying to say that those are all things that we believe to be essential for sustained economic growth. I was saying that despite all that, China still performed well. I wasn’t necessarily suggesting that the things you mentioned weren’t important. I was more framing it as the puzzle of China’s economic growth. I was trying to say that those are all things that we believe to be essential for sustained economic growth. I was saying that despite all that, China still performed well. But I will say that the model that worked for China when it was building factories is not going to be the system that would work for innovation, where you need people to be able to get rich, where you need solid intellectual-property protection, where you have to have clear and transparent policies and rule of law. That worked in the last era. Doesn’t necessarily work in the new era.
Let’s turn the lens of your book around: What are the biggest blind spots the Chinese leadership has when it comes to understanding American policies toward the country? I think the Chinese leaders have this notion that the United States is doing everything it can to try to stop China from growing. Or they believe that whatever China does is not going to elicit more trust. So I think this blind spot is that the leadership is convinced that there’s no way out of this. I’m not sure that is the case. And then also, the United States thinks that China wants to displace it.
Doesn’t it? No. China thinks that its economy should be the largest in the world, not because it’s rich but because it’s large: 1.4 billion people! But that’s very different from overtaking the United States in terms of innovative power and military power and real economic power. I don’t think anybody believes that is a realistic goal for China. Again, we have very different understandings of how we see each other.
10 China’s CATL company, for example, is the world’s largest manufacturer of lithium-ion batteries, which are used for electric vehicles.
What specific things, besides stopping industrial espionage, could China do to increase trust? Giving American companies, financial institutions, more opportunities to make money, opening up its various sectors more aggressively — that will allow more dialogue, more cooperation. That’s one thing. Second, it’s understandable for the United States to push back on some of the industrial espionage. But China’s best technologies, the ones that are really successful right now, artificial intelligence or batteries  or its    — all of that is based on domestic competition. The industrial espionage stems from a lack of appreciation from the start of intellectual property, and the United States, by pushing China to do more intellectual-property protection, is actually good for China. I think it’s on a substantial downward trend, this misappropriation of technologies, because it’s actually not good for China’s own goals.
11 China’s retail-payment system is largely run through QR codes and digital wallets and is operated by tech companies. Banks are cut out of the process.
The next question is more of an epistemological one. The animating idea of your book is that people see the same situation from different perspectives. So when you hear my skepticism about things like Chinese labor policy or media freedom being treated benignly, do you hear it as my being stuck in a particular ideological paradigm? Or maybe that my thinking is itself an example of the misunderstandings that the book is trying to address? I totally understand, because the first time I came to the United States  in 1997, my classmates were asking me about human rights in Tibet. In China, meanwhile, we were busy building and developing and reforming. The focal points have been different. That’s not to say that the economic means justify the unfortunate circumstances. But China is a country that has done the most economically for the most number of people in the shortest amount of time. If you look at the new generation, they are open-minded on a whole range of issues, so much more than their parents. They care about animal rights, worker rights, social inequity. That shift gives us hope that China will progress.
12 Jin came to the United States to study at New York City’s Horace Mann School as part of an exchange-student program.
Opening illustration: Source photograph from Keyu Jin.
This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity from two conversations.
David Marchese is a staff writer for the magazine and writes the Talk column. He recently interviewed Emma Chamberlain about leaving YouTube, Walter Mosley about a dumber America and Cal Newport about a new way to work.
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