傑克·沙利文 製裁俄羅斯徹底失敗

文字記錄：傑克·沙利文在“與瑪格麗特·布倫南一起麵對全國”節目

2024 年 11 月 10 日
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jake-sullivan-national-security-adviser-face-the-nation-transcript-11-10-2024/

2024 年 11 月 10 日/美國東部時間下午 1:32/哥倫比亞廣播公司新聞

沙利文：拜登呼籲繼續向烏克蘭提供援助

國家安全顧問表示，拜登將呼籲在其任期結束後繼續向烏克蘭提供援助 08:09

以下是 2024 年 11 月 10 日播出的“與瑪格麗特·布倫南一起麵對全國”節目中對白宮國家安全顧問傑克·沙利文的采訪記錄。

瑪格麗特·布倫南：我們回來采訪白宮國家安全顧問傑克·沙利文。傑克，很高興你能來。

傑克·沙利文：謝謝你的邀請。

瑪格麗特·布倫南：我們知道拜登總統和當選總統特朗普將於周三在橢圓形辦公室會麵。世界各地都發生了很多火災。拜登總統想要傳達什麽重點和信息？

傑克·沙利文：嗯，第一個也是最重要的信息是拜登總統致力於和平移交權力，並致力於負責任地從一位總統移交給下一位總統，這是我們國家過去 240 年來的最佳傳統。然後他們將討論最重要的問題，包括國內和外交政策問題。包括歐洲、亞洲和中東正在發生的事情。總統將有機會向特朗普總統解釋他如何看待事物，他們的立場，並與特朗普總統討論特朗普總統在就職後如何考慮解決這些問題。

瑪格麗特·布倫南：好吧，我們來談談烏克蘭，因為我們剛剛從哈格蒂參議員那裏聽到了共和黨那部分人目前的世界觀。我們知道那裏的戰爭正在擴大。朝鮮軍隊似乎已經參戰。所有這些對手都全力以赴，希望俄羅斯在那裏獲勝。在剩下的 70 天內，你能做些什麽來改變當地的情況，或者說，讓特朗普的戰略失效，可以這麽說嗎？

傑克·沙利文：好吧，你看，我們的方法和過去兩年半一樣，那就是讓烏克蘭在戰場上占據最強的地位，這樣它最終在談判桌上也能占據最強的地位。為了維護自己的主權和領土完整，烏克蘭應該自己決定何時以及如何走上談判桌。美國和我們建立的國家聯盟應該繼續向烏克蘭提供防禦俄羅斯野蠻侵略的手段。

瑪格麗特·布倫南：你們還有 60 億美元，已經——

傑克·沙利文：幾個月前澤連斯基總統訪問華盛頓時，拜登總統明確表示，我們將按時全額使用國會提供給我們的所有資源。這意味著到 1 月 20 日，我們將向烏克蘭提供國會批準的全部資源和援助。當然，拜登總統將有機會在未來 70 天內向國會和新一屆政府表明，美國不應放棄烏克蘭，放棄烏克蘭意味著歐洲更加不穩定。最終，正如日本首相所說，如果我們放棄歐洲的烏克蘭，美國對亞洲盟友的承諾問題將會增加。

瑪格麗特·布倫南：你的意思是拜登總統將在卸任前要求國會批準更多資金用於烏克蘭？

傑克·沙利文：聽著，我來這裏不是為了提出具體的立法提案。拜登總統將提出，在他的任期結束後，我們確實需要持續為烏克蘭提供資源，因為無論戰場或談判桌上發生什麽，對烏克蘭的威脅仍然存在，美國不應該放棄對烏克蘭或對我們在歐洲和亞洲聯合保衛烏克蘭的 50 個國家的承諾。

瑪格麗特·布倫南：所以美國情報部門評估認為，俄羅斯在這次選舉中偏袒唐納德·特朗普，俄羅斯以相當戲劇性和明顯的方式幹涉了這些假視頻。他們這樣做會付出什麽後果？

傑克·沙利文：首先，我們不要忘記，我們目前正在以人們能想象到的最激烈、最徹底的方式幫助烏克蘭在烏克蘭與俄羅斯作戰。因此，我們已經采取了大量措施來讓俄羅斯付出代價。我們還通過了對俄羅斯實施的最嚴厲的製裁，這是我們見過的針對世界主要經濟體的製裁——

瑪格麗特·布倫南：哈格蒂參議員說，即使受到這些製裁，俄羅斯仍然表現良好。

傑克·沙利文：首先，您可以從許多不同方麵看到，無論是俄羅斯的通貨膨脹，還是他們的能力

隨著時間的推移，俄羅斯的經濟、技術、投資新能源的能力將逐漸增長，隨著時間的推移，俄羅斯的前景越來越暗淡，製裁措施也越來越嚴厲，顯然，製裁並沒有阻止俄羅斯今天在烏克蘭開展軍事行動，但卻為烏克蘭——俄羅斯的未來——描繪了一幅更加黑暗的圖景。

瑪格麗特·布倫南：你知道俄羅斯給了朝鮮領導人金正恩什麽，以換取他派往烏克蘭戰場作戰的士兵嗎？

傑克·沙利文：我們不確定，坦率地說，我認為弗拉基米爾·普京也不確定。我認為他可能還沒有決定未來要為朝鮮做些什麽。但我要告訴你，金正恩預計他將得到一些重要的東西，可能是俄羅斯的軍事和技術支持——

瑪格麗特·布倫南：用於其核計劃？

傑克·沙利文：這是完全有可能的。我不能確切地說會發生什麽，但我們已經聽到俄羅斯人站出來表示，今天應該以不同於五年或十年前的方式看待朝鮮的核計劃。因此，對俄羅斯和朝鮮之間關係的擔憂是非常現實的，也是自由世界所有國家都需要關注的事情。

瑪格麗特·布倫南：內塔尼亞胡總理說，他過去幾天與唐納德·特朗普進行了三次通話。以色列總統伊薩克·赫爾佐格即將訪問白宮。這是剛剛宣布的。在拜登政府執政的最後幾天，是什麽讓你認為本傑明·內塔尼亞胡會同意在加沙實現和平或同意在黎巴嫩實現和平，而不是為新總統保留政治資本？

傑克·沙利文：內塔尼亞胡總理將做出決定，並將就他的決定發表講話。這就是我所看到的。首先，在加沙，今天，阻礙停火和人質協議的並不是以色列。而是哈馬斯。以色列表示，它準備對一些人質實施臨時停火，然後在此基礎上嚐試讓所有人質回家——

瑪格麗特·布倫南：你知道嗎——

傑克·沙利文：——哈馬斯說不

瑪格麗特·布倫南：——哈格蒂參議員與哈馬斯談論過這個問題？

傑克·沙利文：我不知道他發表的具體聲明。我要告訴你的是，無論哈馬斯公開說什麽，他們向調解人傳達的信息都是“不，我們目前不會達成停火和人質協議”。因此，我們需要做的是讓世界其他國家繼續向哈馬斯施加壓力，讓他們坐下來，在加沙達成協議，因為以色列政府已經表示準備朝這個方向邁出暫時的一步。然後談到黎巴嫩問題，我們一直在積極與以色列政府進行討論。這些討論應該閉門進行，但我們確實相信，以色列政府在某個時候希望達成一項讓其公民回國的協議。我不認為以色列政府這樣做是為了美國政治。我認為以色列這樣做是為了確保以色列的安全，我預計在未來幾周內，我們將看到在這方麵取得進展。

瑪格麗特·布倫南：你會追究以色列的責任嗎？因為國務卿和國防部長已經發信表示，他們沒有允許提供應有的援助，而且可能迫使加沙北部的人們流離失所。關於這個計劃，您說這基本上是一條紅線。

傑克·沙利文：所以基本上，您從奧斯汀國務卿和布林肯國務卿那裏看到的是一封致以色列同行的信，信中說，這是我們希望您采取的一係列措施，我們將根據您在這些措施方麵取得的進展來衡量您。本周，我們將對他們取得的進展做出判斷。然後，奧斯汀國務卿、布林肯國務卿和總統將對我們采取的應對措施做出判斷，我不會提前透露。

瑪格麗特·布倫南：很快，習近平主席和拜登總統將在未來幾天的峰會上坐在同一個地方。總統會就這場被稱為“鹽台風”的對電信公司的普遍和大規模黑客攻擊與他對質嗎？

傑克·沙利文：拜登總統每次見到中國國家主席習近平時，都會和他談論網絡間諜活動和網絡攻擊——

瑪格麗特·布倫南：這是一次重大攻擊。

傑克·沙利文：是的，這是一次絕對重大的攻擊。這是聯邦調查局、國土安全部和整個國家安全機構正在大力調查的事情。當然，未來幾周，這將是每一位美國官員和每一位中國官員的議程。

瑪格麗特·布倫南

傑克·沙利文，世界上發生了很多事情。

感謝您前來與我們交談。我們很快就會回來，為大家帶來更多麵向全國的內容。

文字記錄：參議員比爾·哈格蒂 (Bill Hagerty) 談“與瑪格麗特·布倫南 (Margaret Brennan) 一起麵對全國”，2024 年 11 月 10 日

文字記錄：凱倫·皮爾斯 (Karen Pierce) 談“與瑪格麗特·布倫南 (Margaret Brennan) 一起麵對全國”，2024 年 11 月 10 日

“與瑪格麗特·布倫南 (Margaret Brennan) 一起麵對全國”的完整文字記錄，2024 年 11 月 10 日

文字記錄：尼爾·卡什卡裏 (Neel Kashkari) 談“與瑪格麗特·布倫南 (Margaret Brennan) 一起麵對全國”，2024 年 11 月 10 日

文字記錄：眾議員羅·卡納 (Ro Khanna) 談“與瑪格麗特·布倫南 (Margaret Brennan) 一起麵對全國”，2024 年 11 月 10 日

文字記錄：參議員比爾·哈格蒂 (Bill Hagerty) 談“與瑪格麗特·布倫南 (Margaret Brennan) 一起麵對全國”，2024 年 11 月 10 日

文字記錄：凱倫·皮爾斯 (Karen Pierce) 談“與瑪格麗特·布倫南 (Margaret Brennan) 一起麵對全國”，2024 年 11 月10，2024
2024 年 11 月 10 日“與瑪格麗特·布倫南一起麵對全國”完整記錄
記錄：尼爾·卡什卡裏談“與瑪格麗特·布倫南一起麵對全國”，2024 年 11 月 10 日

Transcript: Jake Sullivan on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Nov. 10, 2024

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jake-sullivan-national-security-adviser-face-the-nation-transcript-11-10-2024/

November 10, 2024 / 1:32 PM EST / CBS News

Sullivan: Biden to call for Ukraine aid to continue

National security adviser says Biden will call for Ukraine aid to continue beyond his term 08:09

The following is a transcript of an interview with White House National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan" that aired on Nov. 10, 2024.

 

MARGARET BRENNAN: We're back with White House National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan. Jake, good to have you here.

JAKE SULLIVAN: Thanks for having me.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So we know President Biden and President elect Trump will meet in the Oval Office on Wednesday. There are a lot of fires around the world. What is it that President Biden wants to deliver in terms of a focus and message? 

JAKE SULLIVAN: Well, the first and most important message will be that President Biden is committed to the peaceful transfer of power and to a responsible handoff from one president to the next, which is in the best tradition of our country and has been for the last 240 years. And then they will go through the top issues, both domestic and foreign policy issues. Including what is happening in Europe and Asia and the Middle East. And the President will have the chance to explain to President Trump how he sees things, where they stand and and talk to President Trump about how President Trump is thinking about taking on these- these issues when he takes office.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, let's go to Ukraine, because we just heard from Senator Hagerty that world view from that portion of the Republican Party right now. We know the war is expanding there. The North Korean troops seem to have entered the fight. You have all these adversaries all-in on Russia winning there. What can you do in the remaining 70 days to sort of change what's happening on the ground, or Trump-proof the strategy, so to speak?

JAKE SULLIVAN: Well, look, our approach remains the same as it's been for the last two and a half years, which is to put Ukraine in the strongest possible position on the battlefield, so that it is ultimately in the strongest possible position at the negotiating table. And it should be up to Ukraine to decide, for its own sovereignty and its own territorial integrity, when and how it goes to the negotiating table. It should be up to the United States and a coalition of nations that we have built to continue to supply Ukraine with the means to defend itself against brutal Russian aggression.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You've got like, what, $6 billion in money left that's already--

JAKE SULLIVAN: --And President Biden made clear when President Zelensky was here in Washington a couple of months ago that we would spend all of the resources that were provided to us by the Congress on time and in full. Meaning that by January 20, we will have sent the full amount of resources and aid to Ukraine the Congress has authorized. And of course, President Biden will have the opportunity over the next 70 days to make the case to the Congress and to the incoming administration that the United States should not walk away from Ukraine, that walking away from Ukraine means more instability in Europe. And ultimately, as the Japanese Prime Minister said, If we walk away from Ukraine in Europe, the question about America's commitment to our allies in Asia will grow. 

MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you mean President Biden is going to ask Congress to pass more money for Ukraine before he leaves office?

JAKE SULLIVAN: Look, I'm not here to put forward a specific legislative proposal. President Biden will make the case that we do need ongoing resources for Ukraine beyond the end of his term, because the threat to Ukraine will remain no matter what exactly happens on the battlefield or at the negotiating table, and the United States should not walk away from its commitment, either to Ukraine or to 50 nations that we have rallied in defense of Ukraine in both Europe and Asia.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So U.S. intelligence assessed that Russia favored Donald Trump in this election, that Russia interfered in a fairly dramatic and visible fashion with these fake videos. What consequence are they going to pay, if any, for doing that?

JAKE SULLIVAN: Well, first, let's not forget that we are currently helping Ukraine fight Russia in Ukraine in the most dramatic and full throated way one could- could imagine. So we are already doing a substantial number of things to impose costs on Russia. We have also passed the most sweeping sanctions on Russia that we have seen against a major economy in the world-- 

MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator Hagerty was saying it's- Russia's doing fine even with those sanctions. 

JAKE SULLIVAN: Well, first of all, you can see in many different ways, whether it's inflation in Russia, whether it's their ability over time to actually grow their economy, their technology, their capacity to invest in new sources of energy going down the line, that the picture for Russia looks increasingly bleak as time goes on, and that the sanctions are biting, they have not stopped, obviously, Russia from being able to carry out its military operations in Ukraine today, but they have painted a darker picture for Ukraine- for Russia tomorrow.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you know what Russia is giving North Korea's Kim Jong Un in exchange for the men he is sending to fight on the battlefield in Ukraine?

JAKE SULLIVAN: We don't know for sure, and frankly, I think Vladimir Putin doesn't know for sure. I think he probably hasn't decided exactly what he's going to do for North Korea on a going forward basis. But I will tell you this, Kim Jong Un expects that he's going to get something significant, probably in the form of military and technology support from Russia-- 

MARGARET BRENNAN: For its nuclear program? 

JAKE SULLIVAN: And that's a distinct possibility. I can't say exactly what will happen, but we have already heard the Russians come out and say that North Korea's nuclear program should be looked at differently today than it was five or ten years ago. So the concern about the relationship between Russia and North Korea, in both directions, is very real and something that all of the nations of the free world need to pay attention to.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So Prime Minister Netanyahu said he spoke to Donald Trump three times in the past few days. The Israeli President Isaac Herzog is coming to the White House. That was just announced. What makes you think in these final days of the Biden administration that Benjamin Netanyahu would agree to peace in Gaza or agree to peace in Lebanon and not hold on to that political capital for the new president?

JAKE SULLIVAN: Prime Minister Netanyahu will make his decisions, and he'll speak to his decisions. Here's what I see. First in Gaza, it really, today, is not Israel that is standing in the way of a cease fire and hostage deal. It is Hamas. Israel has said it's prepared to do a temporary cease fire for a number of hostages and then try to build on that to get all of the hostages home-- 

MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you know what--

JAKE SULLIVAN: --Hamas has said no

MARGARET BRENNAN: --Senator Hagerty was talking about on that with Hamas?

JAKE SULLIVAN: I don't know about the particular statement he made. What I will tell you is, whatever Hamas is saying publicly, what they are communicating to the mediators is no, we will not do a cease fire and hostage deal at this time. So what we need to do is get the rest of the world to continue to increase pressure on Hamas to come to the table, to do a deal in Gaza, because the Israeli government has said it's prepared to take a temporary step in that direction. And then when it comes to Lebanon, we have been actively engaged in discussions with the Israeli government. Those should remain behind closed doors, but we do believe that at some point the Israeli government wants to do a deal that gets its citizens back home. I don't think it's doing that deal for American politics. I think it's doing that deal to try to secure Israel, and I expect that in the coming weeks, we will see progress in that direction. 

MARGARET BRENNAN: Will you hold Israel to account? Because the Secretaries of State and Defense have sent letters saying that they're not allowing in aid to the degree they should, and that there are possibly forced displacements from Northern Gaza. On this program, you have said that was essentially a red line.

JAKE SULLIVAN: So basically what you have seen from Secretary Austin and Secretary Blinken is a letter to their Israeli counterparts that says, here is a set of steps we expect you to take, and we are going to measure you against the progress you are making towards those steps. This week, we will make our judgments about what kind of progress they have made. And then Secretary Austin, Secretary Blinken, the President will make judgments about what we do in response, and I'm not going to get ahead of that.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Very quickly, President Xi and President Biden will be in the same place at these summits in the next few days. Will the President confront him about this pervasive and massive hacking of telecom companies known as 'Salt Typhoon?' 

JAKE SULLIVAN: President Biden, every time he sees his Chinese counterpart, President Xi, speaks to him about cyber-enabled espionage, about cyber attacks-- 

MARGARET BRENNAN: This is a significant attack. 

JAKE SULLIVAN: Yes, it is. It is an absolutely significant attack. It's something that the FBI, our Department of Homeland Security, our entire national security enterprise is digging into in a big way. And of course, it will be on the agenda between every American official and every Chinese official in the weeks ahead.

MARGARET BRENNAN  

Jake Sullivan, a lot happening in the world. Thank you for coming in and talking to us. We'll be right back with a lot more Face the Nation.

 

TRanscript: Sen. Bill Hagerty on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Nov. 10, 2024

Transcript: Karen Pierce on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Nov. 10, 2024

Full transcript of "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Nov. 10, 2024

Transcript: Neel Kashkari on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Nov. 10, 2024

Transcript: Rep. Ro Khanna on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Nov. 10, 2024

Transcript: Sen. Bill Hagerty on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Nov. 10, 2024

Transcript: Karen Pierce on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Nov. 10, 2024

Full transcript of "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Nov. 10, 2024

Transcript: Neel Kashkari on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Nov. 10, 2024