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俱樂部午餐摘要 - “與新加坡前外交部長楊榮文共進午餐”
這是人工智能生成的摘要。 可能存在不準確之處。
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新加坡前外交部長楊榮文接受了俱樂部午餐采訪，他在采訪中討論了各種話題，包括新加坡新聞自由的重要性以及中國擁有新加坡和香港這兩個強大城市的好處。 他還討論了香港和新加坡之間的競爭，以及每個城市在大流行期間如何利用對方的優勢。 楊分享了他對世界多極本質以及中國如何能夠在這種環境下蓬勃發展的看法。 他預測，烏克蘭衝突將比預期更快地幫助多極世界具體化。 其他主題包括沙特政府性質的變化、新加坡與中國的關係，以及禁止不同群體成員相互爭鬥的主教原則。
00:00:00 在本節中，演講者談論新加坡前外交部長楊榮文，他是 FCC 的演講者之一。 楊榮文 (George Yeo) 談論將於周一、7 月 13 日和 7 月 16 日發生的活動，以及即將於 3 月 3 日舉行的電影《平凡生活》的俱樂部放映以及《Battle Box》的放映 3月3日上映的電影《香港：圖畫史》。 他還討論了新加坡新聞自由和記者聲譽的重要性。
00:05:00 在本節中，新加坡前外交部長楊榮文討論了在中國擁有兩個城市（新加坡和香港）的好處，以及它們如何幫助彼此保持強大。
00:10:00 在本節中，演講者討論了香港和新加坡之間“相似多於不同”的競爭。 演講者還描述了在大流行期間，新加坡如何利用香港封城的機會，放棄大規模委托，吸引人們前往家族辦公室。 雖然新加坡並沒有受到香港所作所為的激勵，但它確實利用了香港的夾縫求生。 內部宇宙是自由開放的，這與中國的常態不同。 但由於後門沒有打開，中國得以在香港占了一段時間。 但由於香港無法徹底清理，隻好以上海為後門。 上海和香港之間的競爭將繼續對中國發揮不同的作用。
00:15:00 在本節中，作者討論了與香港當地人打交道的困難，以及這如何導致中國在香港的影響力上升。 他還討論了中國在香港的角色如何被修改，但方向與預期相反。
00:20:00 在本節中，新加坡前外交部長楊榮文向研討會觀眾表示，世界是一個“多極世界”，西方世界處於“防禦”狀態。 他討論了中國如何能夠在多極世界中立足多年，以及西方如何無法維持其主導地位。 楊預測，烏克蘭戰爭將有助於多極世界比預期更快地具體化。
00:25:00 在本節中，發言者討論前新加坡外交部長楊榮文表示，如果戰爭不倒下，俄羅斯聯邦將在 2020 年底前采取行動，如果戰爭確實倒下，北約將 被迫升級。 他還表示，停止點將導致烏克蘭歐洲分裂。
00:30:00 在本節中，演講者概述了沙特政府多年來的變化，以及這如何對該國的外交政策產生了重大影響。 他們還討論了沙特阿拉伯最近的開放行為如何導致與美國的緊張關係。
00:35:00 在本節中，演講者討論了新加坡與中國的關係，討論了兩國關係的現狀以及進一步發展的潛力。 他們還提到了保持文化和種族歸屬的重要性，以及這給新加坡人帶來的挑戰。
00:40:00 在本節中，新加坡前外交部長楊榮文向香港觀眾表示，雖然他不是中華人民共和國公民，但他欽佩並尊重新加坡以及新加坡培養出像他這樣的人才的能力 權威地談論世界事務。 他接著說，由於南海幾個世紀以來一直是公地，中國人聲稱應該將南海分成兩半，中方擁有完全的出海權，而另一方則隻有有限的出入權。 他還認為，如果台灣海峽開放通航，中國將
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新加坡媒體代表采訪外交部長楊榮文
問：您是否願意首先向我們介紹一下40周年紀念日和東盟峰會的總體目標和目標？
部長：此次峰會的高潮將是簽署東盟憲章。 兩年半前，當我們在外交部長務虛會上開始這一進程時，我們從未預料到我們會走到這一步。 我們成立了一個知名人士小組，該小組在大約兩年前的吉隆坡峰會上啟動，然後當該報告被接受時，高級別工作組進行了起草工作，該小組必須解決許多重要問題，例如我們將如何解決 我們之間的爭端，我們是否想要一個人權機構等等。 但在整個過程中，政治意願比我之前預期的要多。 每次我們必須麵對問題時，我們都會做出決定並繼續前進，我們不會回避。 當各國外交部長在紐約聯合國大會期間舉行會議時，最後的問題得到了解決。 現在我們有一份憲章需要簽署。 現在，盡管尚未正式發布，但可以在網站上找到副本，因為泰國議會必須作為新程序的一部分對其進行辯論。 所以裏麵的內容不再是秘密。 沒有提到製裁或驅逐，因為官員們立即想知道我們是否指的是特定情況或特定國家，這很尷尬，但事實上這意味著對於最終問題，它將在什麽時候返回給領導人 他們在峰會上會麵。 在這種情況下，領導人將充當同行委員會，決定自己的內部程序並做出自己的決定。
這不是什麽新鮮事。 幾年前，當緬甸問題出現時，吳作棟時任總理，他讓領導人在側室會麵，沒有官員在場，沒有媒體報道，沒有錄音，隨後東盟開始 發表聲明，呼籲釋放昂山素季，並要求緬甸堅持自己的民主道路。 從這個意義上說，緬甸也是這些聲明的締約方。 因此，對於最終問題，領導人總是可以開會並決定他們想要做什麽。 對於其他問題——管理協議的執行、管理有關特定東盟文書的爭端，當然我們越來越多地執行具體的爭端解決機製。 例如，對於所有經濟手段，我們都加強了遵循國際公約的爭端解決機製。 在一段時間內，東盟的判例將會不斷發展，各國將認識到需要讓律師在起草協議時仔細預測可能出現的爭議和訴訟； 所有這些都標誌著東盟朝著成為一個基於規則、受規則約束的組織邁出了重要的一步。 這需要時間，但我們現在正在做的是，我們正在重新設定我們的方向。 最初，您可能會問有什麽區別？ 一步一步，五年、十年、二十年，東盟的終點截然不同。
但無論我們為解決最困難的政治問題製定什麽規則，領導力才是最重要的。 以幾周前緬甸鎮壓和平示威者為例。 當時我們還不確定緬甸是否會參加峰會。 我們不確定這個國家會發生什麽，但我們毫不懷疑，當領導人在新加坡會麵時，他們會決定，無論緬甸是否來，我們都必須向前邁進，憲章仍然會簽署 。 我的意思是，為緬甸留出空間，讓他們在準備好後簽字。 所以這些都是突發事件，你無法事先將其寫入規則。 我們想說的是，在我們能夠定義情況的地方，我們就定義它，然後當我們不能時，我們不要假裝比我們更確定； 憲章中有授權條款，對於最困難的問題，將其提交給領導人，然後領導人必須利用集體智慧找到前進的道路。 因此，這是東盟曆史上非常重要的裏程碑。
我們堅持了40年，維護了東南亞的和平，促進了各國的發展。 新加坡從第三世界國家變成了第一世界國家，因為我們周圍有和平，現在連曾經在另一邊的越南也正在向未來快速出擊。 人們可以對整個東盟感到樂觀，但也存在像我們現在在緬甸麵臨的問題。 我們希望緬甸不會主導下次會議的議程。 通過聯合國和特別顧問易卜拉欣·甘巴裏的斡旋，迄今已取得良好進展，甘巴裏代表昂昂宣讀的聲明意義重大。
山素季在新加坡。 她采取了積極的態度，並對未來表示了一定的希望，隨後當她在仰光會見自己的政黨成員時，當她被允許在仰光會見自己的政黨成員時，她說她非常樂觀。 她的話讓我感到驚訝，但我們有什麽資格去猜測她呢？ 被監禁的她很樂觀。 嗯，因此我們必須樂觀。 為此，當甘巴裏回到聯合國評估上次訪問時，連美國也紛紛表示對他的斡旋充滿信心。 因此，我相信我們很有可能在新加坡舉行良好的會議，但關鍵的會議將是19日為東盟領導人舉行的第一晚非正式領導人晚宴。 那是家庭聚餐，不會有官員在場； 不會有閉路電視，隻有領導人之間的會議。 我們預計該會議將討論緬甸問題。 如果我們能夠達成共同立場，這對緬甸的民族和解進程將非常有幫助，這將意味著我們都站在易卜拉欣·甘巴裏的一邊。 如果東盟立場一致，那麽當11月21日東亞峰會領導人會議時，中國、日本和印度將與我們站在一起。 我拜訪他們是為了達成共識，我確信如果我們在東盟有共同立場，那麽他們就會支持我們。 所以 EAS 會議就是為此而召開的，因為他們都會出席。 當然還有其他國家——澳大利亞、新西蘭和韓國。 我確信他們也會一起來。 總理已邀請易卜拉欣·甘巴裏在那次會議上向我們介紹情況。 他們可以與他交換意見，然後領導人將在午餐時單獨討論緬甸和其他問題。 這些是21號的。 如果所有東亞峰會領導人圍繞東盟核心立場也能發表聲明支持甘巴裏，支持緬甸民族和解進程，呼籲走一條有時限的民主之路，那麽倒退的可能性就會減少 峰會之後。 因為所有峰會國家都會為這一立場做好準備，但如果我們不保持前進的壓力，那麽可能會出現倒退，這對緬甸人民不利，對我們東南亞也不利。 因此，如果我們在東亞峰會中擁有良好穩固的地位，那麽這將增強我們未來的地位。
另一個需要巧妙處理的問題是我們同意在東盟設立的人權機構。 這個問題被推遲了，因為重要的是內容，還沒有決定。 這是兩個簡單的段落，它們本身並不重要，但因為它們包含在憲章中，所以很重要。 我們不能將該機構稱為一些國家想要的“委員會”，因為這表明該機構的名稱超出了其他國家的預期，因此商定了一個通用術語。 有人爭論是否應將其置於機關章或其他章之下。 我們解決了這個問題並將其放在器官章節下。 對於應該將哪些器官列入清單存在爭議。 我們在紐約解決了這個問題。 鑒於新成員國的立場，我不太知道我們最終會達成什麽一致。 我懷疑我們是否會……我不確定它是否會有牙齒，但它肯定會有舌頭。 要知道，套用白芝浩在英國憲法中談到英國君主時所說的話，無論它有沒有牙齒，人權機構都有權提出警告、批評、鼓勵。 如果不出意外的話，它肯定會產生道德影響。 但這些都是未來的細節。 也許我會在這裏結束並回答你們的問題。 是的，請問您來自哪裏？
問：《新報》的子勇。
部長：新紙。
問：為了成功，政府必須向人民推銷東盟的理念，所以目前不深入探討亞洲的哲學和曆史，也不使用外交官的語言，你將如何推銷這個理念 讓他們對東盟憲章感到興奮。
部長：這需要時間。 如果你看看歐洲的經驗，它最初是精英階層的建設，領導人在第二次世界大戰後聚集在一起，決定他們不應該再互相爭鬥，而應該為政治一體化和經濟發展建立一個共同的空間。 一步一步地深化和擴大，然後通過Inter-Rail、ERASMUS等各種計劃，促進人員、學者、學生的自由流動，創造歐洲公民意識。 他們仍然是法國人、德國人和波蘭人，但年輕的歐洲人越來越意識到他們也是歐洲公民。 幾個月前，我與一位英國外交部高級官員交談。 他很開放。 他說：“我兒子比我感覺更像歐洲人”！ 我們麵臨的挑戰是如何讓我們的孩子
比我們更能感受到東盟。 這需要時間，但一步一步，隨著對東盟的了解不斷擴大，隨著我們共同應對危機，隨著我們看到合作的優勢，年輕一代將會對東盟更加忠誠，並將其價值觀和願望內化。
再次回到緬甸，近幾個月來，沒有什麽比緬甸更能讓普通新加坡人感受到東盟對東盟的重要性了。 突然，我們中的一些人說：“是的，東盟必須對此采取行動，東盟必須成為解決方案的一部分。” 因此，當我們時不時地麵臨危機時，這將幫助我們定義我們的身份，我們的共同身份。 當然我們還應該做一些文化活動、舞蹈節、獎學金、青少年交流、歌曲比賽、騎自行車等活動。 做一些有趣的、有吸引力的小事情，逐漸讓年輕人感覺到，“哦，這是值得做的事情”。
問：當人們對東盟對緬甸局勢的反應感到失望、希望采取行動時，你認為這是一種抑製嗎？ 而東盟則回應稱，我們必須支持甘巴裏先生，而不是采取比已經采取的更多具體行動。 那麽你認為從這個意義上說，人們，你知道你讓他們感興趣，但你卻提出了某種讓他們失望的東西？
部長：嗯，有很多觀點。 我認為一些新加坡人認為我們應該做得更多。 有些人可能希望我們切斷與緬甸的所有聯係。 但事實上，許多新加坡人對我們所采取的立場感到非常滿意，即堅定但保持參與。
問：作為新加坡主席，您認為本次峰會最理想的成果是什麽？
部長：作為主席，我們的責任是從菲律賓主席手中接過球而不丟球，將其向前推進並傳給下一任主席的泰國人，而不丟球。 所以這並不是說我們正在發起新政策或決定重大事情。 我們是東盟進程的一部分，當我們擔任主席時，我們有一定的責任來推動共同事業，當像緬甸這樣的突發事件發生在我們身上時，我們會采取負責任的行動，這就是我們為這次峰會努力做的事情 。 我們所能做的就是幫助促進和落實東盟的共同意願。 這並不是說我們代表他人負責並做出決定。 我想說的是，如果我們能夠在緬甸問題上達成良好的共同立場，不讓它影響或削弱我們慶祝《憲章》簽署的活動，然後與我們的東亞峰會同事共同努力，最終慶祝《憲章》簽署30周年。 東盟-歐洲關係的話，我們會做得很好。
問：您越來越多地前往東亞各國。 您能否告訴我們您在對中國和印度施加影響力方麵的一些討論或擔憂？
部長：我訪問東京、北京和德裏主要是為了就緬甸問題進行磋商。 每個人都有自己的觀點。 單憑一己之力不可能取得充分成效，但如果我們協調一致、共同行動，我相信一定能為緬甸民族和解進程發揮有益作用。 幾天前，當我在德裏拜訪普拉納布·默克吉先生時，他以非常直率的方式向我提出了這一點。 他說這不僅僅是印度和中國。 必須是印度、中國和東盟一起。 我相信我們已經達成了足夠的共識，可以在下周實現這一目標。
問：但我們正在關注東盟，東盟也在關注他們。
部長：我們必須共同努力。 東盟本身不能做太多事情，我們必須對此非常現實，但東盟是一個大家庭，所以這給了我們道德地位。 中國和印度與緬甸有著漫長的邊界。 國家保持穩定，走上民主發展的道路，符合我們三人的既得利益。 所以在緬甸問題上，我們有著根本上的共同利益。 當然，中國和印度互相懷疑，因為緬甸是兩國之間的緩衝國。 而印度在1990年代初向昂山素季頒發尼赫魯獎時，看到其與仰光的關係惡化，他們擔心中國對緬甸的影響力太大，所以他們想要平衡。 中國修建了通往緬甸的良好道路。 印度也在修建通往緬甸的良好道路，不僅通往邊境，而且通往緬甸的城市。 如果我們管理好這個過程，那麽通過歡迎雙方，我們將成為他們的交匯點和連接點，這就是我們本世紀在亞洲應該始終努力做到的目標。 東盟作為十個國家的聯合體，與雙方都擁有良好的關係，並受益於它們的成長和發展。
問：在反對聲音日益強烈和即將舉行的民意調查的情況下，執政政府有可能無法持久。 您如何看待這對東盟現在製定的方向的影響？
部長：由居住在該國的人民決定
他們擁有的政府形式。 這就是尊重和不幹涉的原則。 但當然，沒有一個國家是獨裁的。 一個國家內部發生的事情可能會影響其朋友和鄰國。 它的朋友和鄰居的所作所為可能會影響到國內的情況，因此在某種程度上我們是相互聯係的。 我們有興趣，但最終我們必須接受，由自己國家的人民決定自己的命運。 我們可以為緬甸做很多事情，但最終還是要由緬甸人民來解決自己的未來。 最終是政府、各民族、昂山素季、民盟、軍隊必須妥協並決定他們應該成為什麽樣的社會和國家。 最終，他們會從後果中承受最大的痛苦，或者從後果中受益最多，這取決於結果。 是的，請？
問：主席先生，回到《憲章》，您認為《憲章》實施過程中最大的挑戰是什麽？特別是對新加坡的意義是什麽？ 另一個問題是環境議程將成為今年峰會的主要成果之一。 新加坡將如何與其他對話夥伴分享我們在綠化方麵的經驗以及我們在環境方麵的所有經驗？
敏：你的第一個問題是關於憲章之後的下一步。 下一步是批準，這在菲律賓等一些國家可能是一個漫長的過程。 昨天我與東盟大使共進午餐。 我告訴他們我們需要為自己設定一個目標。 用一年的時間讓所有國家批準《憲章》，以便一年後我們在曼穀開會時《憲章》能夠生效。 為了紀念這一點，應該有一個儀式，一個讓每個人都為之努力的活動，一個給自己施加壓力的方式。 泰國人一直熱衷於在曼穀舊薩拉那隆宮簽署《憲章》，40 年前的 8 月 8 日，建立東盟的原始文書就是在這裏簽署的。 明年，當所有國家都批準了《憲章》時，我們將在那裏舉行一個儀式，說“看，是的，我們終於踏上了新的道路，我們再次在曼穀相聚慶祝”，這將是非常具有象征意義的。 這就是我們希望做的。 除此之外，在一係列問題上總會存在爭議和無休止的爭論，但這沒關係。 這就是我們一直在談論的社區建設的一部分。 正如丘吉爾曾經說過的那樣，“下巴，下巴比戰爭更好，戰爭”，事實上我們有會議，我們學會彼此相處，我們建立友誼、同誌情誼和信任的紐帶，這都是我們的生活的一部分。 社區建設。 這最終將創造出東盟公民意識。
你的第二個問題是一個非常重要的問題，涉及環境和氣候變化。 事實上，這就是我們會議的組織主題——“環境保護、能源、氣候變化與可持續發展”。 12 月將在巴厘島召開一次非常重要的會議——聯合國氣候變化框架公約，該會議將由印度尼西亞主持，當我上周拜訪 SBY 總統時，我告訴他李總理已指示內閣部長們充分考慮 對這次會議的支持。 對於未來來說，這是一次非常重要的會議。 它將決定我們這個星球上的國家必須共同采取哪些行動來減緩全球變暖。 我們知道人類活動對此做出了貢獻。 我們不太確定有多少。 如果我們一定要犯錯誤，那就讓我們在安全方麵犯錯誤。 但這項工作隻有我們大家共同行動才能完成。 當其他人忙著向大氣中排放碳時，你無法限製自己的排放。 美國、中國和印度等大國必須參與進來。這將是一些非常艱難的討價還價，最終你需要足夠簡單的規則來執行，而那些違反規則的人要麽受到羞辱，要麽在壓力下改變 行為。 談判並不容易。 他們的目標是在 2009 年之前達成後京都協議。我認為，京都協議將於 2012 年到期。 所以從巴厘島到哥本哈根之間有兩年的時間，中間還有……我現在不記得了，但無論如何，在哥本哈根的兩年時間解決了這個問題。 關鍵是要在巴厘島順利啟動並製定明確的職權範圍。 因此，這次會議非常重要，我預計氣候變化將成為下周所有會議的關鍵議程項目。
你問新加坡能做什麽。 我們已經證明，保護環境不僅是一件令人向往的事情。 它還增強了我們的經濟。 它促進我們人民的成長和發展。 做得好而且做得及時，這不是以犧牲經濟發展為代價的事情。 遠非如此。 這是您為了保持長期經濟發展而采取的措施。 因此，我們在新加坡擁有一個非常有吸引力的棲息地，這也是我們一直在努力發展的原因之一。
我們能夠吸引人們在這裏設立總部、把錢放在這裏、在這裏生活、在這裏學習、在這裏接受醫療保健。 這是我們成功的一個非常重要的因素。 我不確定各個國家的情況，但該地區的許多其他城市都來這裏研究我們的例子，因為他們也想要一個有吸引力的市政環境。
我們需要做的是超越城市層麵到國家層麵，因為那是做出決策的層麵。 全球氣候變化協議要求各國（而不僅僅是城市）采取一致行動。 在這方麵，新加坡將扮演負責任的角色。 在所有國際論壇上，我們都會發揮積極作用。 我不太確定我們會產生什麽影響，因為有很多大國是主要參與者，但如果我們客觀、公正，時不時地，我們也許能夠幫助彌合分歧。 這是我們在世貿組織中發揮的作用。 我相信這是我們在全球氣候變化討論中可以發揮的作用。
在我們這邊，我們正在創建一個城市生活研究所，有這樣的名字。 但基本上是為了響應全球對我們保護和改善新加坡環境日益增長的興趣，鼓勵交流並創建一個可以匯集知識的平台，以便每個人都能從中受益。 因此，我們無法告訴我們周圍的其他國家應該做什麽或可以做什麽，但我們可以通過舉例和創建平台來幫助傳播他們自己認為有用和有幫助的想法。
問：接著，您說新加坡將想方設法幫助其他國家。 我們將通過哪些方式幫助印度尼西亞？
部長：我們將與印度尼西亞人合作，我們將成為主席的朋友，我們將為主席提供幫助。 這就是我們將采取的立場，我已經告訴 Pak Hassan (Wirajuda)，我也已將這一點傳達給 SBY 總統，如果印度尼西亞希望我們在任何領域發揮幫助作用，請告訴我們。 我們會盡力而為。
問：他們有提出什麽要求嗎？
部長：我認為在官員層麵，我們了解他們想要實現的目標，我們將通過直接和間接的方式盡力提供幫助。
問： 部長，您剛才說緬甸可能不會在本次峰會上簽署，但可能會在以後簽署。 也許你可以解釋一下這個過程是如何的，因為......
部長：不，他們是來參加峰會的。 那隻是假設。 我是說鎮壓之後，事情還不明朗的時候，我們不太確定會發生什麽。
問：所以他們將在峰會上簽字，這已經確認了嗎？
部長：哦，當然。 你來自 Berita Harian 嗎？
問：不，我來自《今日報》。
敏：《今日報》？
問：是的。
問：部長，東盟憲章非常重要。
部長：你是新報社的？ 好的。
問：是的，《東盟憲章》非常重要，但要贏得所謂的民心，你需要像這首歌這樣的東西。 那麽有東盟國歌嗎？ 所以我問你的問題是，寫國歌的歌詞和憲章的文字哪個更難？
部長：（笑聲）我會把它留給那些在這方麵更有能力的人。 我的意思是這應該很有趣。 這應該是像歐洲歌唱大賽那樣讓人期待的事情。 我們需要在東南亞舉辦類似的文化活動，讓我們所有人都期待並享受。
問：接下來，我們是否會為東盟日舉辦遊行或其他活動？
部長：8月8日！ 這是所有國家都承諾慶祝的東盟日。 所以今年，我們舉辦了由總理主持的大型活動。 然後在Chinggay，我們讓所有東盟大使登上了其中一輛花車。
問：這不是假期嗎？ 最好宣布它為公共假期。
部長：（笑聲）這不是議程項目。
問：我可以回到憲章嗎？
部長：好的，請。
問：其中體現了協商一致的原則。 有人說，這阻礙了東盟的前進。
部長：不，不一定。 我們可以一致同意，對於某些決定，我們可以與多數人一起做出，或者對於某些其他決定，一組國家可以首先進行，這是現在載入《憲章》的東盟減X原則的基礎。 也就是說，如果按照共同協議，一小部分國家希望首先繼續前進，隻要他們為我們其他國家稍後加入敞開大門，他們就可以繼續前進。 但重要的是，非協商一致行動和決策的規則應該通過協商一致來解決，我們必須共同同意，在某些情況下，我們可以做出不那麽一致的決定。 所以現在憲章中啟用了這一點。
問：一年的批準期是不是有點太長了？
部長：不，對於一些國家來說，這是一個相當漫長的過程。 昨天，當我與菲律賓大使共進午餐時，她說菲律賓代表大會可能需要一年的時間。 我不熟悉
符合內部程序，但他們必須采取一些步驟。 我希望，一旦我們設定了目標，我們就會努力實現該目標。 這對新加坡來說不是問題，但對某些國家來說可能是問題。
問：根據《憲章》，東盟峰會由每年一次改為每年兩次。 做出改變的原因是什麽？其他對話夥伴是否也會參與其中？
部長：不，我們外長一致同意，第二次會議應該采取休會模式，並且隻是我們之間的會議。 可能是半天或一天，領導人飛來解決重要問題，以便他們的部長和官員能夠繼續工作。 現在的問題是，有時當我們不能達成一致時，我們會產生更多的研究小組和更多的委員會，結果是浪費時間和資源，而我們最需要的是一個決定。 是啊，不是，如何妥協。 對於某些類型的決策，我們需要領導者來做出。 因此，當我們說每年兩次時，我們將確保我們不必等待一整年才能做出決定。 就歐洲而言，領導人每年舉行四次會議。 嗯，我認為這是相當多的材料。 非常感謝您的光臨。 所以請注意這個空間！
[部長在采訪後簡要介紹]
部長：你看，67 年，越南戰爭正處於最激烈的時期。 68 年是春節攻勢。 77 年：柬埔寨走向了紅色高棉。 87年，越南師威脅要渡過湄公河：柏林牆尚未倒塌。 越南尚未從湄公河對岸撤軍，但顯然陷入了困境。 97 年：已經團結的東盟麵臨金融危機。 現在已經是 2007 年了。2017 年會發生什麽？
到2017年，我們知道中國和印度將成為主要大國。 到2027年，他們將成為非常強大的力量。 那時我們在哪裏？ 如果我們處理得當，我們就會被他們兩個束縛住。 他們崛起，我們與他們一起崛起。 我們就在他們相遇的地方，我們從兩者中受益，我們幫助維護亞洲的和平。 所以這是非常有意義的。 你永遠不能說“如果我們沒有這個，如果我們沒有東盟，我們會在哪裏？” 但這十個國家都得出這樣的結論：我們每個人的境況都更好。 如果我們有東盟，我們的生存機會會比沒有東盟更高。這才是真正激勵我們的因素。 你看，國家的行為不僅僅是出於愛，也不是僅僅出於善意。 各國都受到恐懼和野心的推動。 通常更多的是出於恐懼而不是野心，正是對自己渺小和脆弱的恐懼促使我們所有人來到這裏。 這就是政治意願推動我們所有人前進的原因。
問：你必須留意這個空間。 非常感謝。
部長：謝謝！
Summary of CLUB LUNCH - "A Lunch with Former Singaporean Minister for Foreign Affairs George Yeo"
Date: 9 Mar 2023 12:15 PM — 01:45 PM | Venue: Dining Room
https://www.summarize.tech/www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHHFK6ZXGKM
This is an AI generated summary. There may be inaccuracies.
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00:00:00 - 00:55:00
Former Singaporean Minister for Foreign Affairs George Yeo was the subject of a Club Lunch interview, where he discussed various topics, including the importance of press freedom in Singapore and the benefits of having two strong cities, Singapore and Hong Kong, in China. He also discussed the rivalry between Hong Kong and Singapore and how each city made use of the other's strengths during the pandemic. Yeo shared his thoughts on the nature of the world as a multipolar place and how China has been able to thrive in this environment. He predicted that the Ukraine conflict would help crystallize the multipolar world faster than expected. Other topics covered included the changing nature of the Saudi government, Singapore's relationship with China, and the Bishop Principle which forbids members of different groups from fighting each other.
00:00:00 In this section, the speaker talks about former Singaporean Minister for Foreign Affairs George Yeo, who is one of the speakers at the FCC. George Yeo talks about the events that will be happening on Monday, the 13th of July, and the 16th of July, as well as the upcoming Club Screening of the film "Noordinary Life" on the 3rd of March, and the Battle Box screening of the film "Hong Kong: A History in Pictures" on the 3rd of March. He also discusses the importance of press freedom and the reputation of journalists in Singapore.
00:05:00 In this section, George Yeo, former Singaporean Minister for Foreign Affairs, discusses the benefits of having two cities in China - Singapore and Hong Kong - and how they can help each other stay strong.
00:10:00 In this section, the speaker discusses the rivalry between Hong Kong and Singapore, which is "more alike than they are different". The speaker also describes how during the pandemic, Singapore made use of Hong Kong being closed to drop its mass mandates and attract people down for family offices. While Singapore was not motivated by what Hong Kong did, it did make use of Hong Kong's being trapped in between to survive. The internal Universe was free and open, which was a departure from the norm in China. However, due to the back gate not being open, China was able to take advantage of Hong Kong for a period of time. However, since Hong Kong could not clean up completely, it had to resort to using Shanghai as its back gate. The rivalry between Shanghai and Hong Kong will continue to play different roles for China.
00:15:00 In this section, the author discusses the difficulties in dealing with local populations in Hong Kong and how this has led to a rise of Chinese influence in the city. He also discusses how the Chinese role in Hong Kong has been revised, but in the opposite direction of what was expected.
00:20:00 In this section, George Yeo, the former Singaporean Minister for Foreign Affairs, tells a workshop audience that the world is a "multipolar world" and that the Western world is in a "defensive" state. He discusses how China has been able to stay in the multipolar world for many years and how the West has been unable to maintain its dominance. Yeo predicts that the Ukraine war will help to crystallize the multipolar world faster than expected.
00:25:00 In this section, the speaker discussing former Singaporean Minister for Foreign Affairs George Yeo says that the Russian Federation will move by the end of 2020 if the war doesn't fall, and that if the war does fall, NATO will be forced to escalate. He also says that the stopping point will lead to a partition of Europe of Ukraine.
00:30:00 In this section, the speaker provides an overview of how the Saudi government has changed over the years, and how this has had a significant impact on the country's foreign policy. They also discuss how the recent openings in Saudi Arabia led to a tense relationship with the United States.
00:35:00 In this section, the speaker discussing Singapore's relationship with China discuss the current state of the relationship, as well as the potential for further growth. They also mention the importance of maintaining cultural and ethnic affiliation, and the challenges that this poses for Singaporeans.
00:40:00 In this section, George Yeo, a former Singaporean Minister for Foreign Affairs, tells a Hong Kong audience that, while he is not a PRC citizen, he admires and respects Singapore and its ability to produce people like him who can speak authoritatively about world affairs. He goes on to say that, because the South China Sea has been the commons for centuries, the Chinese claim it should be divided into two halves, with the Chinese side having full access to the sea and the other side having only limited access. He also argues that, if the Taiwan Strait were open to navigation, China would haveClaimed
Transcript of interview with Minister for Foreign Affairs George Yeo by Singapore media representatives
Q: Maybe you would like to start off by telling us the broad objectives and aims of the 40th anniversary and the ASEAN Summit?
Minister: The high point of the summit will be the signing of the ASEAN Charter. When we embarked on this process two and a half years ago at the retreat of the Foreign Ministers, we never expected that we would arrive at this point. We formed an Eminent Persons Group which was launched at the Kuala Lumpur Summit almost two years ago and then when that report was accepted, the High Level Task Force did the drafting which had to address a number of important issues like how are we going to settle disputes among ourselves, whether we wanted a human rights body and so on. But throughout the process, there was more political will than I expected there to be earlier on. And every time we had to confront an issue, no ducking, we made a decision and we moved on. The last bits were cleared when the Foreign Ministers met in New York at the sidelines of the UN General Assembly. So now we have a Charter to sign. Now even though it has not been released officially, copies are available on the website because the Thai parliament had to debate it as part of a new procedure. So it's no longer a secret what's inside. There is no mention of sanctions or expulsions because immediately, officials wondered whether we were referring to a particular situation or a particular country and it was awkward, but in fact what it means is for ultimate issues, it will be referred back to the Leaders when they meet at their Summits. In such situations, the Leaders will act as a committee of peers deciding on their own internal procedures and making their own decisions.
This is not something new. A number of years ago when Myanmar as an issue cropped up, Goh Chok Tong was at that time Prime Minister, he got the leaders to meet in a side room, no officials present, no media coverage, no recording and following which ASEAN began to issue statements calling for the release of Aung San Suu Kyi and asking Myanmar to adhere to their own road to democracy. In that sense, Myanmar was also a party to those statements. So for ultimate issues, it's always possible for Leaders to meet and decide among themselves what they want to do. For other issues - governing the implementation of agreements, governing disputes concerning particular ASEAN instruments, then of course more and more we are executing specific disputes settlement mechanisms. So for all economic instruments for example, we have enhanced disputes settlement mechanisms which follow international conventions. Over a period of time, an ASEAN jurisprudence would evolve and countries will see the need for to have lawyers craft agreements carefully anticipating possible disputes and litigation; all this represents an important step forward towards making ASEAN a rules-based and a rules-bound organisation. It will take time but what we are doing now is we are re-setting our direction by a few degrees. Initially, you may ask what's the difference? Well step by step, five years time, ten years time, twenty years time, very different end points for ASEAN.
But whatever rules we devise for ourselves for the most difficult political issues, it is leadership which matters. You take for example the crackdown of peaceful demonstrators in Myanmar few weeks ago. We were not sure at that time whether Myanmar was going to come or not to the Summit. We were not sure what was going to happen to the country but we had no doubt when the Leaders met in Singapore, they would decide, well, whether Myanmar comes or not, we have got to move forward and the Charter would still have been signed. I mean, leaving a space for Myanmar to sign on later when they were ready. So these are contingencies which you cannot write into rules beforehand. What we are saying is, where we can define the situation, we define it, then when we cannot, let's not pretend to be surer than we are; have enabling provisions in the charter and for the most difficult issues, refer them back to the leaders who will then have to draw upon their collective wisdom to find a way forward. So it is a very important milestone in the history of ASEAN.
We've been at it for 40 years, which kept the peace in Southeast Asia and enabled the countries to develop. Singapore has gone from a third world country to a first world country because we have peace around us and now even Vietnam, which used to be on the other side, is making rapid strikes into the future. One can be optimistic for ASEAN as a whole but there are problems like the one we are now facing in Myanmar. We hope Myanmar will not dominate the agenda in the coming meeting. Good progress has been made so far through the good offices of the UN and the Special Advisor Ibrahim Gambari and it was significant, the statement which Gambari read on behalf of Aung San Suu Kyi in Singapore. She took a positive approach and expressed a certain hopefulness about the future and subsequently when she met members of her party in Yangon, when she was allowed to meet members of her own party in Yangon, she said she was very optimistic. That surprised me - her remark, but who are we to second guess her? She who is incarcerated is optimistic. Well, therefore we must be optimistic. For this reason, when Ibrahim Gambari went back to the UN to give his assessment of the last visit, even the US came around and expressed confidence in his good offices. So I believe we are more likely than not to have good meetings in Singapore but the critical meeting will be the first night's informal Leaders' Dinner for ASEAN leaders on the 19th. That's a family dinner, there will be no officials present; there will be no closed-circuit television, it's just the Leaders meeting among themselves. We expect Myanmar to be discussed at that meeting. If we can arrive at a common position, that will be very helpful for the process of national reconciliation in Myanmar, it will mean that we all lined up behind Ibrahim Gambari. And if ASEAN has a unified position, then when the EAS leaders meet on the 21st of November, China, Japan and India will line up with us. I have visited them in order to have this common understanding and I'm quite sure if we have a common position in ASEAN, then they are with us. So the EAS meeting was really made for this because all of them will be there. Of course there are other countries - Australia, New Zealand and Korea. I'm sure they will come along too. PM has invited Ibrahim Gambari to brief us at that meeting. They can exchange views with him, and then the Leaders will be on their own at lunch to discuss Myanmar and other issues. These are on the 21st. And if all the EAS leaders, building around the core ASEAN position can also come out with a statement to support Gambari, to support the process of national reconciliation in Myanmar, calling for a time bound road to democracy, then there are less chances of backsliding after the Summit. Because all the Summit countries will gear up for that position, but if we don't maintain the pressure for forward movement then there could be backsliding, which would be bad for the people of Myanmar, which would be bad for us in Southeast Asia. So if we have a good solid position in the EAS then that enhances our position for the future.
The other issue which took some finessing is the Human Rights Body which we agreed to establish in ASEAN. The problem has been postponed because what matters is the content, which has not yet been decided. So two simple paragraphs, significant not in themselves but significant in the fact that they are in the Charter. We could not call the body a 'commission' which some countries wanted because that suggested more than other countries felt the body should be, so a generic term was agreed upon. There was a debate whether it should be under the Organs chapter or some other chapter. We settled that and put it in under the Organs chapter. There was a debate in the listing of Organs where it should be. We settled that in New York. I don't quite know what we will eventually agree upon given the positions of the newer member states. I doubt if we would have, ... I'm not sure if it will have teeth but it will certainly have a tongue. You know, to paraphrase Bagehot when he wrote in the English Constitution about the British monarch, whether or not it has teeth, the human rights body will have the right to admonish, to criticise, to encourage. It will certainly have moral influence if nothing else. But these are details for the future. Maybe I will end here and I'll take your questions. Yes please, where are you from?
Q: Tze Yong from New Paper.
Minister: New Paper.
Q: For it to be successful, right, the government has to sell the idea of ASEAN to the people, so for the moment without going into the philosophy and the history of Asia and without using a diplomat's language, how would you sell this idea to get them excited on the ASEAN Charter.
Minister: This will take time. If you look at the European experience, it was initially a construction of the elite, of leaders coming together after the Second World War deciding that they should no longer fight one another but should establish a common space for their political integration and economic development. So step by step, deepening and enlarging, and then through various programmes like Inter-Rail, like the ERASMUS programme, facilitating the free movement of people, of scholars, of students, creating a sense of European's citizenship. They are still Frenchmen and Germans and Poles, but there is increasingly among younger Europeans a sense that they are also European citizens. I was chatting with a senior FCO official a few months ago. He was quite open. He said, "My son feels much more European than I do"! The challenge for us is how we get our children to feel more ASEAN than we do. It will take time but step by step as knowledge of ASEAN widens, as we confront crisis together, as we see the advantages of collaboration, then the younger generation will feel more committed to ASEAN and internalise its values and its aspirations.
Coming back to Myanmar again, nothing has done more in recent months to give a sense of relevance to ASEAN among ordinary Singaporeans than Myanmar. Suddenly some of us said "Yes, ASEAN has got something to do about it and ASEAN must be part of the solution." So as we confront crisis from time to time, that will help us define our identity, our common identity. Of course we should also do things like cultural events, dance festivals, scholarships, youth exchanges, song contests, bicycle rides. Do the little things which are fun, which are engaging and gradually get the younger people to feel, "oh this is something worth doing".
Q: Do you think it was a dampener when people felt disappointed in the way ASEAN reacted to the Myanmar situation, when people wanted action; whereas ASEAN reacted saying that we must support Mr Gambari, not to take anymore concrete action than it already had. So do you think in that sense people, you know you got them interested but then yet you put a sort of, it was something that made them disappointed?
Minister: Well, there is a range of views. I think some Singaporeans felt that we should have done more. A few might have wanted us to cut off all links with Myanmar. But there are many Singaporeans who are in fact quite comfortable with the position we are taking, of being firm but staying engaged.
Q: What would you consider a good desired outcome as a Singapore Chair from this Summit?
Minister: In the chair, our responsibility is to receive the ball from the Filipino Chair without dropping it, take it forward and pass it to the Thais who are next in the Chair, without dropping it. So it's not that we are initiating new policies or deciding on big things. We are part of a process in ASEAN and while we are in the chair, we have certain responsibilities to further the common cause and when sudden events come upon us like Myanmar we act responsibly, and that's what we have tried hard to do for this Summit. All we can do is to help facilitate, act out the common will of ASEAN. It's not as if we are taking charge and making decisions on behalf of others. I would say if we can have a good common position on Myanmar and not allow it to cloud or dampen our celebrations of the signing of the Charter, and then work together with our EAS colleagues and culminate in a good celebration of the 30th anniversary of the ASEAN-European relations, then we would have done well.
Q: You've been increasingly travelling to various countries in East Asia. Can you tell us about some of your discussions or your concerns in getting leverage over China and India?
Minister: My visits to Tokyo, Beijing and Delhi were principally to consult on Myanmar. Each had its own perspective. None acting on its own could have been fully effective but if we coordinate and act together, I believe we can play a helpful role in the process of national reconciliation in Myanmar. And this was put to me in a very forthright way by Mr Pranab Murkherjee when I called on his just a few days ago in Delhi. He said it can't just be India and China. It has to be India, China and ASEAN together. And I believe there is enough common understanding for us to make that happen next week.
Q: But we are looking to ASEAN and ASEAN is looking to them.
Minister: We have to work together. ASEAN by itself can't do very much and we have to be very realistic about that, but ASEAN is family so this gives us a moral standing. China and India have long borders with Myanmar. All three of us have a vested interest in the country staying stable and moving onto the road of development in democracy. So on Myanmar, we share fundamentally common interests. Of course China and India eye each other suspiciously because Myanmar is a buffer state between the two countries. And India when it gave Aung Sang Suu Kyi the Nehru prize in the early 1990s, saw its relations with Yangon go down and they are concerned that China has too much influence over Myanmar, so they want a balance. China has built good roads into Myanmar. India is building good roads into Myanmar as well, not just to the border but into cities in Myanmar. If we manage this process well, then by welcoming both we become their meeting place and their connecting point, which is what we should always strive to be in Asia in this century. ASEAN as a collection of ten countries integrated, having excellent relations with both and riding on their growth and development.
Q: In a climate of increasingly vocal opposition and upcoming polls, there is a chance that ruling governments will not last. How do you see this affecting the directions set by ASEAN now?
Minister: It's for people living in the country to determine the form of government they have. This is the principle of respect and non-interference. But of course, no country is autarchic; what happens within a country can have effects on its friends and neighbours. What its friends and neighbours do can have an effect on what goes within the country, so to that extent we are connected. We have an interest, but in the end we must accept that it is up to the people in their country to determine their own destiny. We may do many things about Myanmar, (but) in the end it is the Myanmar people who have to settle their own future. In the end it is the government, the various ethnic groups, Aung Sang Suu Kyi, the NLD, the army, who have to compromise and decide what kind of society and country they ought to be. In the end they suffer the most from the consequences or benefit most from the consequences, depending on the outcome. Yes, please?
Q: Sir, coming back to the Charter, what do you think is the biggest challenge in the implementation of the Charter and what is the significance to Singapore particularly? Another question is the environment agenda will be one of the key deliverables of the Summit this year. How would Singapore share our experience in our greenification and all our experience in the environment with the other dialogue partners?
Min: Your first question about what next after the Charter. The immediate next step is the ratification, which can be a protracted process in some countries like the Philippines. I had lunch with the ASEAN Ambassadors yesterday. I put it to them that we need to set a target for ourselves. One year to get all the countries to ratify the Charter so that in a year's time when we meet in Bangkok, the Charter can come into force. And to mark it there should be a ceremony, an event for everybody to work towards, a way to put pressure on ourselves. The Thais have always been keen for the Charter to be signed in the old Saranarom palace in Bangkok where the original instrument establishing ASEAN was signed 40 years ago on 8th of August. And it will be very symbolic when next year, when all the countries have ratified the Charter, we have a ceremony there to say "Look, yes finally, we are onto a new course and once again we meet in Bangkok to celebrate it", so that's what we're hoping to do. Then beyond that, there will always be disputes and endless arguments over a whole range of issues but that's alright. That's all part of community building that we're always talking. As Churchill once said, "Better jaw, jaw than war, war", and the fact that we have meetings, the fact that we learn to live with one another, that we forge bonds of friendship, camaraderie and trust, that's all part of community building. And that's what in the end will create a sense of ASEAN citizenship.
Your second question is a very important one about the environment and climate change. In fact, it is the organising theme of our conference - "Environmental protection, energy, climate change and sustainable development". There is a very important meeting coming up in Bali in December - the UN Framework Convention for Climate Change which will be chaired by Indonesia and when I called on President SBY last week, I told him that Prime Minister Lee has instructed Cabinet ministers to give full support to that conference. It is a very important conference for the future. It will determine what we as countries on this planet have got to do together to slow down global warming. We know that human activity has contributed to it. We're not quite sure by how much. And if we must err, let us err on the side of safety. But this work can only be done if all of us act together. You cannot restrict your own emissions when others are busily pumping away carbon to the atmosphere. The US, big countries like China and India must be brought in. There will be some very hard bargaining and you need in the end, rules that are simple enough to be enforced and those who are in breach either shamed or put under pressure into changing behaviour. The negotiations will not be easy. They are targeting for the post-Kyoto agreement to be settled by 2009. Kyoto runs out in 2012, I think. So two years between Bali then Copenhagen, and in between... I can't remember now but anyway, two years' time in Copenhagen to settle it. The key is to have a good launch in Bali setting out clear terms of reference. So that meeting is very important and I expect climate change to be a key agenda item at all the meetings coming up next week.
You ask what Singapore can do. We have shown that looking after the environment is not only something desirable. It also enhances our economy. It facilitates growth and development for our people. Well done and done in time, it is not something you do at the expense of economic development. Far from that. It is something that you do to preserve your long-term economic development. So we have in Singapore a living habitat which is attractive and which is one reason why we've been able to attract people to establish headquarters here, to put their money here, to live here, to study here, and to have their healthcare done here. It is a very important element in our success. I'm not sure about countries but many other cities in the region have come here to study our example, because they too want an attractive municipal environment.
What we need to do is to get beyond the level of cities to the level of countries because that is the level where decisions are made. The global agreement on climate change requires countries to act in concert, not just cities. Here, Singapore will be a responsible player. At all international forums, we will play an active role. I'm not quite sure what influence we will have because there are many big countries who are the major players, but if we are objective and fair, from time to time, we might be able to help bridge differences. This is a role that we play in the WTO. I believe that this is a role we can play in global discussions on climate change.
On our side, we are creating an institute for urban living, some such name. But basically responding to growing global interest in the way we protect and enhance the environment here in Singapore, encouraging exchange and creating a platform where knowledge can be brought together so that everybody can benefit from it. So we can't tell what other countries around us should do or can do but we can by example and by creating a platform, help spread ideas that they themselves will find useful and helpful.
Q: Just to follow up, you said that Singapore is going to find ways to help other countries. In what ways will we help Indonesia?
Minister: We will work with the Indonesians and we will be a friend of the Chair and we will be helpful to the Chair. That's the position that we will take and I have told Pak Hassan (Wirajuda) and I have communicated this also to president SBY, that if there is any area where Indonesia would like us to play a helpful role, just let us know. We will try our best.
Q: Have they asked for anything yet?
Minister: I think at the officials' level, we have a sense of what they want to achieve and through direct and indirect we will try to be helpful.
Q; Minister, earlier you said that Myanmar may not sign at this Summit but may sign later. Maybe you can explain how this process is because from...
Minister: No they're coming for the Summit. That was just hypothetical. I was saying that after the crackdown, when things were still unclear, we were not quite sure what was going to happen.
Q: So they are signing at the Summit, that's confirmed?
Minister: Oh yes of course. You're from Berita Harian?
Q: No I'm from TODAY newspaper.
Min: TODAY newspaper?
Q: Yes.
Q: Minister, the ASEAN Charter is very important.
Minister: You're from New Paper? Ok.
Q: Yes, the ASEAN Charter is very important but to win the so called hearts and minds of the people, you need something else like the song. So there's the ASEAN anthem? So my question to you is, is it harder to write the lyrics of the anthem or the words of the Charter?
Minister: (laughter) I'll leave it to those who are more competent in this area. I mean it should be fun. It should be something that people look forward to like the Eurovision song contest. We need to create similar cultural events in Southeast Asia that all of us can look forward to and enjoy.
Q: Following up on that, do we have a parade or some kind of occasion for ASEAN Day?
Minister: August the 8th! That's ASEAN Day which all countries have pledged to celebrate. So this year, we had the big event which PM officiated. Then at Chinggay we had all the ASEAN ambassadors to mount one of the floats.
Q: It's not a holiday right? It's best to declare it a public holiday.
Minister: (laughter) This is not an agenda item.
Q: Can I come back to the Charter?
Minister: Yes please.
Q: The principle of consensus and consultation is enshrined in it. Some people say that it holds ASEAN back from moving forward.
Minister: No, not necessarily. We can by consensus agree that for certain decisions we can go with the majority or for certain other decisions, a sub-group of countries, can proceed first and that was the basis of the ASEAN minus X principle which is now enshrined in the Charter. That is, if by common agreement, a smaller group of countries want to move on first, provided they leave the door open for the rest of us to join later, they can carry on. But it is important for the rules of non-consensual action, of decision-making, should be settled by consensus, that we must together agree that for certain situations, we can go ahead with a less than unanimous decision. So this is now enabled in the Charter.
Q: Is the one year ratification period a bit too long?
Minister: No, for some countries it is quite a protracted process. Yesterday when I had lunch with the Filipino ambassador, she said even one year might be a rush for the Filipino congress. I am not familiar with the internal procedures but there are steps that they have got to take. What I'm hoping is that once we have set that up as a target, we try to meet that target. It's not a problem for Singapore but it could be problem for some countries.
Q: Under the Charter, the ASEAN Summit will be held twice a year instead of once a year. Any reason for the change and will other dialogue partners be involved as well?
Minister: No, the second meeting, we've agreed among the Foreign Ministers, should be in retreat mode and only be a meeting among ourselves. It can be for half a day or a day, the leaders fly in, settle important issues so their ministers and officials can get on with their work. The problem now is sometimes when we can't agree, we spawn more study groups and more committees and the result is a waste of time and resources, when what we may need most is a decision. Yes, no, how to compromise. And for certain kinds of decisions, we need leaders to take them. So when we say twice a year, we will ensure that we won't have to wait a full year for the decisions to be taken. In the case of Europe, the leaders meet four times a year. Well, I think that's quite a lot of material. Thank you very much for coming. So watch this space!
[Minister gives a sound bite after the interview]
Minister: You see in '67, the Vietnam War at its height. '68 was the Tet offensive. '77: Cambodia had gone to the Khmer Rouge. Vietnamese divisions threatening to cross the Mekong '87: The Berlin wall had not yet come down. Vietnam had not yet withdrawn from across the Mekong but was clearly stuck. '97: financial crisis for an already united ASEAN. So now we're in 2007. What will happen in 2017?
By 2017, we know that China and India will be the major powers. By 2027, they will be very big powers. Where are we at that point in time? If we play it right, we'll be tethered to both of them. They rise, we rise with them. We are where they meet, we benefit from both and we help to maintain the peace in Asia. So it's quite significant. You can never say "If we didn't have this, if we didn't have an ASEAN, where will we be?" But each and every one of the ten countries has come to the conclusion that each of us is better off. Our survival chances are higher if we have ASEAN, than if we don't have ASEAN And it is this which is really what is galvanising us. You see, countries do not act out of love, or out of goodwill alone. Countries are impelled by fears, by ambitions. Often more by fear than by ambition and it is a fear of being small and vulnerable that is impelling us all to come here. That's the reason for the political will driving all of us forward.
Q: You've got to watch this space. Thank you very much.
Minister: Thank you!
