【上海人談】\'Shanghai\'

【也談 “Shanghainese" 】 By: 一語湖邊

---

原帖： http://web.wenxuecity.com/BBSView.php?SubID=teatime&MsgID=146076
網絡搜索主題： 上海，Very randomly:

---

· Shanghai is always a topic. Very controversial, Shanghai People sometimes pay less attention to the city they live in, but the interest grows as they get out of the town.

· This is often seen when you travel to the places like Venice in Italy, or to remote town small and quite as “Wu-zhen” - 烏鎮 in the southern part of China, you tell immediately whose are coming from outsides from those generation dwellers from  the quietest smiles in their faces looking at the outlanders curiously.

· Quite interesting, “Shanghai” has been a topic of many works. Told in Numerous movies, fictions, and so on. An lee’s movie -“Lust, caution” – 色戒 , could serve no argues another most recent example. Why ？ It is become an interest so peculiar for people from everywhere.

· That the People in Hong Kong or Taiwan have special interests in Shanghai is very obvious. We may feel that from the movies they made in recent years. From earliest “shanghai-bund” 上海灘， to latest “Lust, caution” – 色戒 .

· Truly enough, a big topic, -shanghai started some 200 years ago from a small fishing village to now has a lot to unfold. · Or is there any one specialized in digging into the history or studying the city-development of  a sort? Surely it could cost some time to find out….

---

【也談，上海人：“shanghainese"】 "nish or nese" By: 一語湖邊
________________________________________
也談， “shanghainese" 我的漢字輸入有點問題，原諒我用英語.

上海國際化了,應運而出的是”SHANGHAINESE “ 這個稱謂的出現 .
Basically, I did not see anything wrong with that. When we define a word is properly used or not, should we consider situations where the word or the term is used. If we are in the discussion in the sence of the of language .

“在上海時,我聽到嬌滴滴的上海女子在酒店裏對幾個東方麵孔的男人介紹自己說,”I’M SHANGHAINESE”. 我真的有點兒迷惑. 在感請上, 我沒法把’SHANGHAINESE’ 和上海人等同起來.我認為 最自然不過的一句話是上海人對自己的同胞說”我是上海人”，而對老外說 “I’m Chinese． ”

Here is a question: first, in daily conversation, there are many nationalities or people outside with oriental faces: Japanese, Korean, or Honkongnese. suppose you re among them and try to make clear what is your local language or try to give more information of you back ground you would naturally added where you’re from. From this point hardly could we see any thing unsuitable.

“但是鮮有上海人直接了當地對自己的同胞說”我是上海人”, 既使他們說完後也要補充一句, 其實他們父母不是上海本地人. 可是,當無比可愛的上海美眉躲在英文裏嬌媚而自豪地說I’M SHANGHAINESE”的時候,卻好像沒有一點需要說明的解釋，反而讓人覺得是上海人要飛出CHINESE 的圈子, 而直接飛向”SHANGHAINESE”,目標是和 TAIWANESE, HONKONESE, JAPENESE看齊, 而把其他的Chinese 甩在身後. 我不能不承認上海人的優越, 這和所有北京人,NEWYORKER, CHICAGOREN 的優越感是等同的,大城市有著得天獨厚的地理環境, 令人咋舌的商業中心, 前衛時尚的流行精品,巨大而風格獨特的博物館,物價昂貴的名街名宅, 更有要人, 巨星, 富商雲集, 為城市錦上添花.”

Same as Hongkongnese, Cantonese, Taiwanese, it comes with the languages exposure to the outside world. it is known that China is such huge country with many local languages; there are cases when people in real conversation to be more specific as to let the listeners know where she or he is from instead of just saying "Chinese". It goes along with more exposure of Chinese people and China as a whole. I always say I am “shanghainese” to make clear I am not Cantonese as my westerners friends thought, and to give my languages preference is not Cantonese but Mandarin, or shanghainese as native. Then added I am “Chinese-Canadian” to tell I am Chinese as my nationality.

“但是 , 一個地域再優秀 , 也不可能擺脫它的民族和隸屬國 , AFTER ALL, A SHANGHAINESE IS STILL A CHINESE, 我猜是不是有一天 , 當一個 NEWYORKER 到中國旅行 , 對老中們說 “ 我是 紐約人 ”, 而我們又可以分辯出他的紐約口音時 , 那麽 SHANGHAINESE 才可以百般驕傲於這個詞語的發明 . ”

Secondly, I have heard people in Canada or American saying they are "Torontonian" or 'New Yorker' too, to people who knows little about the area or find hard to tell the difference from their accents. It is quite natural to be a bit specific. It is as simple as to say I am Canadian. but lived in Toronto. So from some people, "Chinese" "Canadian" or "American" is more or less to mean their nationalities only. Surely when they are mixed only with other Westerners and meeting people of other ethics they will mention the country where they belong to as to tell the true nationalities are.

其實 , SHANGHAINESE 這個詞本身聽起來真的酷極了 . 隻是用起來 , 卻有那麽一點不倫不類 . 因為 , 上海人不用對老中說 , “ 我是 SHANGHAINESE,” , 而對老外應該 說 ”I’M CHINESE”. 我想巴 , 想巴 , 這個詞最大的用處 , 是在和殖民地的香港人 , 或是以英語為母語的東南亞同胞交流中可以說 . “I’M SHANGHAINESE”, 既能體現上海和他們相近的西化程度 , 又可不露痕跡地掩飾說 ” 我是上海人 ” 的一點尷尬 , SHANGHAINESE 顯然已經厭倦了作為 ” 上海人 ” ，而 TRY TO GET OUT OF IT. 於是 SHANGHAINESE 便在自以為是的在洋涇浜小資們中間流行了起來 .

So, allow me to quote: " 上海人不用對老中說 , “ 我是 SHANGHAINESE,” , 而對老外應該 說 ”I’M CHINESE”. Let’s figure out this way: when you meet some westerners, amidst some 3-4 Chinese, they know you are all 'Chinese" for sure. Then it is better, to say 'Shanghainese" or "Hongkongnese"or "Taiwanese" rather than only "Chinese", which tells your nationality but not clear about the local languages. Unless there is no such word at all, or the city is too small to say, "I am Shu_Zhou_ese" as an example?

However, it is noted the word  “Shanghainese” might be still not acceptable in some dictionaries. And one more thing the "-nese" itself is also within the language discussion too, if we noticed. Here, as some one asked why  "Spanish' is not called 'Spanese' or 'Japanese' but why not "Japanish', or 'Chinese" but not to be called "Chinarian" "Chin-nish" just a example of language curiosity, or whatsoever? It is truly another interesting 'why" or to name it deference of "nish and nese" to dig into?

One more thing: there is huge sub-cultural difference among locations and cities in China, owning to the immobility of Chinese citizens in the past and to the lacking of  the public transportation and communications . But now, the vital thing for Chinese is to go beyond our 

---

, or be not too fussy about where we come from. Unless one had personal problems with the people form the varied locations. That is why I guess people are calling for a mindset of more internationally oriented

Post for personal interest, Thursday, March 27, 2008

約翰雷客霄 Burlington, Ca.
Contact: [e-mail] (China) [e-mail]( International )

---

---

附： 高手專題Blog鏈接:
http://blog.wenxuecity.com/myblog.php?blogID=24470

Reference:

1. 【也談，上海人： “ Shanghainese" 】 By: 一語湖邊 [ 品茶小軒 ] - 一語湖邊 _lakeshore(4927 bytes ) (19 reads)2008-03-26 http://web.wenxuecity.com/BBSView.php?SubID=teatime&MsgID=146076

2. 對 “SHANGHAINESE” 和 ” 上海人 ” 的一點困惑 [ 品茶小軒 ] - 風清月白 (1647 bytes ) (143 reads)2008-03-24 http://web.wenxuecity.com/BBSView.php?SubID=teatime&MsgID=145701

---

附 02 ： 主題搜索：清單見下：

---

[一語湖邊_lakeshore]

附02 ： 主題搜索：清單：
• 【也談，上海人：“Shanghainese"】 By: 一語湖邊 [品茶小軒] - 一語湖邊_lakeshore(4927 bytes ) (19 reads)2008-03-26
• 哈哈，常聽人稱“上海小男人”，“上海小女人”又來啦。 [品茶小軒] - 老X(0 bytes ) (4 reads)2008-03-24
• 俺聽不懂上海話，來點兒別的吧 [品茶小軒] - 風清月白(0 bytes ) (4 reads)2008-03-24
• 對“SHANGHAINESE”和”上海人”的一點困惑 [品茶小軒] - 風清月白(1647 bytes ) (143 reads)2008-03-24
• 在線 康熙 life show 上海演唱會 [品茶小軒] - 二野(3137 bytes ) (13 reads)2008-03-22
• 上海女人確實不錯，男人嘛，太麵了點 [品茶小軒] - 潤濤閻(0 bytes ) (13 reads)2008-03-20
• 妙配: 山東男娶上海女, 上海男娶東北女 [品茶小軒] - 九頭鷹(0 bytes ) (11 reads)2008-03-20
• 我覺得上海男人才夠可愛些。嘻嘻。 [品茶小軒] - 碧血千尋(72 bytes ) (26 reads)2008-03-20
• ——談談上海的男人和女人 (圖) [品茶小軒] - 碧血千尋(4149 bytes ) (424 reads)2008-03-20
• 這是個很奇怪的理論，北京男娶上海女，上海男孩是娶南邊姑娘合適 [品茶小軒] - 碧血千尋(0 bytes ) (5 reads)2008-03-20
• 上海男人女人包—————— [品茶小軒] - 碧血千尋(1372 bytes ) (31 reads)2008-03-20
• 哢哢，你跑馬觀花，奏把上海帥哥、美女看得這麽透徹呀 [品茶小軒] - 紅漆工(6 bytes ) (8 reads)2008-03-20
• 優雅！文字精美的像上海女人，文風華麗細密的像上海男人 [品茶小軒] - 飄俠(0 bytes ) (4 reads)2008-03-20
• 儂對上海的男人的看法有轉變呐。額甚喜甚慰！嗬嗬嗬~~~ [品茶小軒] - Glider(0 bytes ) (3 reads)2008-03-20
• 飄俠看來也很懂得上海GG和MM。 [品茶小軒] - 碧血千尋(0 bytes ) (3 reads)2008-03-20
• 老唱片：良宵 上海音樂學院女子重奏組 劉天華作曲 [品茶小軒] - 聶耳(231 bytes ) (32 reads)2008-03-03
• 也是一次美麗的邂逅，不過我一直不認為上海比北京好：） [品茶小軒] - 安靜(30 bytes ) (20 reads)2008-03-04
• 回複：我最愛上海DE ----------- [品茶小軒] - 人在淺水(4 bytes ) (23 reads)2008-02-28
• 我最愛上海DE ----------- [品茶小軒] - 碧血千尋(19 bytes ) (26 reads)2008-02-28
• "上海的中餐館不錯，比我到過的南加，北加，紐約的中餐館地道"? [品茶小軒] - 小豹(22 bytes ) (30 reads)2008-02-27
• 上海印象 [品茶小軒] - 人在淺水(841 bytes ) (153 reads)2008-02-27
• 上海外灘要拆了！論中國人的革命綜合症！ [品茶小軒] - ykhyk(632 bytes ) (80 reads)2008-02-19
• 同感，節日裏會回想上海過年的氣氛，想家了。。。。。 [品茶小軒] - 朱婷(0 bytes ) (5 reads)2008-02-08
• 舊上海的公寓麗人 [品茶小軒] - 慧慧(5228 bytes ) (734 reads)2007-12-04
• 對舊上海了解頗深嘛。博客裏都真人秀啊？你也是名嬡耶！ [品茶小軒] - 莊文雅(0 bytes ) (16 reads)2007-12-05
• 謝謝大家哈，這些曆史都是從上海檔案信息網上摘取的。 [品茶小軒] - 慧慧(38 bytes ) (37 reads)2007-12-05
• 回複：老上海──上海的廣東幫--嗬嗬-- [品茶小軒] - 江上一郎(30 bytes ) (6 reads)2007-10-23
• 老上海──上海的廣東幫 [品茶小軒] - 慧慧(19869 bytes ) (356 reads)2007-10-17
• 上海灘──八十年代的婚禮 [品茶小軒] - 慧慧(8272 bytes ) (407 reads)2007-10-17
• 那些在上海的日子 [品茶小軒] - 小鳳凰(4532 bytes ) (243 reads)2007-09-29
• 談談上海灘和許文強 [品茶小軒] - 於德利(2512 bytes ) (254 reads)2007-09-27
• 上海海歸太太們的聚會 [品茶小軒] - 簡單心語(11867 bytes ) (7053 reads)2007-09-10
• 碰巧他們這次聚會時，我在上海。 [品茶小軒] - 簡單心語(54 bytes ) (239 reads)2007-09-11
• 回複：上海海歸太太們的聚會 [品茶小軒] - STERKING(26 bytes ) (54 reads)2007-09-13
• 不僅僅是上海人，都差不了多少， 半斤八兩。 [品茶小軒] - RPV(0 bytes ) (28 reads)2007-09-07
• 回上海後的一些體會 [品茶小軒] - 小鳳凰(4689 bytes ) (964 reads)2007-09-06
• 上海股民二三事 [品茶小軒] - 小鳳凰(6504 bytes ) (379 reads)2007-09-04
• 上海的空氣很清新嘛。比80末期好多了 [品茶小軒] - 莊文雅(0 bytes ) (17 reads)2007-09-04
• 你知道這是上海哪家花園的景色?(圖) [品茶小軒] - 小鳳凰(3374 bytes ) (262 reads)2007-09-01
• 請你猜猜這是上海的哪裏?(圖) [品茶小軒] - 小鳳凰(4139 bytes ) (287 reads)2007-08-30
• 組群誕生,有空去坐坐,砸磚也歡迎. [品茶小軒] - 百樂門(134 bytes ) (106 reads)2007-07-20
• 上海老太痛批章子怡“給臉不要臉” [品茶小軒] - 握梅聞花(424 bytes ) (218 reads)2007-07-01
• [轉帖]上海免費吃喝全功略 [品茶小軒] - 四大惡人(2082 bytes ) (373 reads)2007-06-23
• 看看韓寒怎麽說上海的磁懸浮的！(這小子！) [品茶小軒] - 卜人(1635 bytes ) (354 reads)2007-06-05
• 《漫談上海茶》作者張葉舟，發表於1939年第3期《上海生活》 [品茶小軒] - 聶耳(936 bytes ) (61 reads)2007-04-23
• 阿裏在上海的情人節: 和ICE3 (圖) [品茶小軒] - 阿裏(2584 bytes ) (166 reads)2007-02-21
• 歡迎上海MM。 [品茶小軒] - 公子明(0 bytes ) (5 reads)2007-02-07
• 上海的茶館 [品茶小軒] - yijibang(7038 bytes ) (179 reads)2007-01-29
• 上海莫幹山路五十號 [品茶小軒] - -realblue-(4737 bytes ) (360 reads)2007-01-21
• 有些風花雪月與上海無關 [品茶小軒] - 別樣明媚(2980 bytes ) (300 reads)2006-12-19
• 漂亮，如今的上海還有這樣安靜的地方？？ [品茶小軒] - 天鑰橋路(0 bytes ) (15 reads)2006-12-15
• [尋找上海] 虹口的小街 -- 甜愛路 [品茶小軒] - 托尼福(1292 bytes ) (280 reads)2006-12-15
• 【時代的變遷】上海城隍廟（圖1） [品茶小軒] - peterpan1668(8175 bytes ) (159 reads)2006-12-14
• 回複：【時代的變遷】上海城隍廟探幽 （圖2） [品茶小軒] - 臭美小女子(4075 bytes ) (60 reads)2006-12-11
• 【時代的變遷】上海城隍廟探幽 （圖2） [品茶小軒] - peterpan1668(5158 bytes ) (330 reads)2006-12-11
• 記得95-96年加拿大電視台拍的上海孤兒院.引起爭論. [品茶小軒] - stockholm(0 bytes ) (23 reads)2006-12-11
• 上海周邊古鎮的風味小吃（圖） [品茶小軒] - peterpan1668(20830 bytes ) (4411 reads)2006-11-30
• 【分享】老上海的風味小吃(續圖) [品茶小軒] - peterpan1668(7639 bytes ) (1973 reads)2006-11-29
• 老上海的風味小吃太誘人了。回頭照著做兩樣力所能及的 [品茶小軒] - 簡妮真人(0 bytes ) (16 reads)2006-11-29
• 【分享】老上海的風味小吃 [品茶小軒] - peterpan1668(8104 bytes ) (301 reads)2006-11-29
• 回複：[尋找上海] -- 蘇州河畔的藝術走廊 [組圖] [品茶小軒] - 林貝卡(0 bytes ) (5 reads)2006-11-28
• [尋找上海] -- 蘇州河畔的藝術走廊 [組圖] [品茶小軒] - 托尼福(2228 bytes ) (241 reads)2006-11-27
• 啊？上海男人真這樣？誇張了吧？ [品茶小軒] - EvaLuna(0 bytes ) (16 reads)2006-11-20
• 俺是上海的~ [品茶小軒] - 一品帶磚侍衛(0 bytes ) (9 reads)2006-11-20
• （轉貼）啊，上海男人！ [品茶小軒] - peterpan1668(8626 bytes ) (234 reads)2006-11-19
• 上海的大白兔奶糖還在嗎？甜了俺整個童年！ [品茶小軒] - EvaLuna(0 bytes ) (8 reads)2006-11-12
• 沒大沒小(ZT普通話)::::呣麽規矩(上海話)::::::( [品茶小軒] - 佳乃(33 bytes ) (15 reads)2006-09-30
• 看，錢在說老上海（附照片） (圖) [品茶小軒] - 笑笑511(1798 bytes ) (178 reads)2006-09-20
• 很上海的文字,很上海的生活,很上海的情感:):) [品茶小軒] - 佳乃(25 bytes ) (33 reads)2006-09-13
• 範遷"混在上海" zt [品茶小軒] - 混跡北美(8106 bytes ) (59 reads)2006-08-14
• 上海的小吃很精致：） [品茶小軒] - 浪跡天涯2006(0 bytes ) (7 reads)2006-08-01
• 怎麽這麽多我都沒吃過.白在上海呆了.殺回去,照圖片去吃 [品茶小軒] - 戈壁灘上的流沙(0 bytes ) (7 reads)2006-08-01
• (上海小吃-多圖) “篤篤篤，賣糖粥，三斤胡桃四斤殼”，“金花菜，馬 [品茶小軒] - 都是國人(3880 bytes ) (420 reads)2006-08-01
• 俺是被上海灘造就的，說到拚搏，還是插洋對那會兒肯拚 [品茶小軒] - 為吃不怕麻煩(234 bytes ) (35 reads)2006-07-29
• 俺喜歡看關於你自己在上海灘的拚搏勝於愛情故事 [品茶小軒] - 莊文雅(198 bytes ) (21 reads)2006-07-29
• 是嗎？我在上海走到街上老是有人叫呢，象彩芬她們：） [品茶小軒] - 為吃不怕麻煩(0 bytes ) (3 reads)2006-07-27
• 大上海，小世界。我感慨得要死：） [品茶小軒] - 為吃不怕麻煩(0 bytes ) (14 reads)2006-07-26
• 人一上百，形形色色。何況是大上海，女孩子有怎麽會是 [品茶小軒] - 為吃不怕麻煩(86 bytes ) (49 reads)2006-07-26
• 都說上海姑娘細致絲絲，怎麽這個依依如此大大咧咧 [品茶小軒] - 莊文雅(88 bytes ) (44 reads)2006-07-26
• 我在上海的朋友也常用這種方法幫我減肥：））） [品茶小軒] - 為吃不怕麻煩(0 bytes ) (11 reads)2006-07-23
• 上海和上海人都變化不少 [品茶小軒] - 戈壁灘上的流沙(162 bytes ) (44 reads)2006-07-23
• “你不象上海人”--插隊時，是好評！ [品茶小軒] - 江上一郎(0 bytes ) (7 reads)2006-07-23
• zt: 從“你不象上海人”談起 [品茶小軒] - 夢雲兒(7288 bytes ) (331 reads)2006-07-22
• 其實上海是最能容納人城市，上海人是最能平等待人的人 [品茶小軒] - 聶耳(432 bytes ) (60 reads)2006-07-23
• 嘻嘻,我都想去買那天回上海的機票 [品茶小軒] - 霓娜(28 bytes ) (21 reads)2006-07-22
• 連上海的老底子都要挖呀， [品茶小軒] - 莊文雅(24 bytes ) (18 reads)2006-07-23
• 謝謝莊主：）我是坐著公車走進上海的：） [品茶小軒] - 為吃不怕麻煩(0 bytes ) (3 reads)2006-07-23
• 回複：連上海的老底子都要挖呀， [品茶小軒] - 莊文雅(223 bytes ) (6 reads)2006-08-10
• 回複：回複：連上海的老底子都要挖呀， [品茶小軒] - 莊文雅(349 bytes ) (10 reads)2006-08-10
• 上海的確是個淑女培訓站，不管湖南辣妹還是四川潑婆 [品茶小軒] - 莊文雅(72 bytes ) (28 reads)2006-07-17
• 都是在上海變的，感謝上海，感謝生活：） [品茶小軒] - 為吃不怕麻煩(0 bytes ) (4 reads)2006-07-17
• 清純：2者都是阿拉上海姑娘啦 (圖) [品茶小軒] - TigerHunter1(186 bytes ) (35 reads)2006-06-28
• 海上花 之煎餅果子“上海造” [品茶小軒] - 為吃不怕麻煩(4421 bytes ) (296 reads)2006-06-17
• 南方人吧 嗬嗬。上海人？ [品茶小軒] - 笑的跟花兒一樣(0 bytes ) (8 reads)2006-06-16
• 你知道嗎，百盛可是上海小姑娘的最愛，下次你去必勝客時 [品茶小軒] - 聶耳(102 bytes ) (29 reads)2006-06-10
• 我是急性子，到了上海才學會了悠閑：） [品茶小軒] - 為吃不怕麻煩(0 bytes ) (7 reads)2006-06-10
• 坐著公車看都市 之走進上海 [品茶小軒] - 為吃不怕麻煩(4409 bytes ) (215 reads)2006-06-10
• 2006年上海高考作文題是 （zt) [品茶小軒] - 聶耳(1886 bytes ) (160 reads)2006-06-09
• 我昨天貼的上海民歌喜歡嗎? 會唱嗎 [品茶小軒] - 海姑娘(81 bytes ) (7 reads)2006-06-07
• 華夏優秀民歌係列40: 上海(蘇州)民歌-紫竹調(海姑娘推薦) [品茶小軒] - 海姑娘(2104 bytes ) (93 reads)2006-06-07

• 想去上海看看，：)) [品茶小軒] - 999roses(0 bytes ) (5 reads)2004-01-20
• 笑臉兄猴年吉祥。等著看上海－N(圖) [品茶小軒] - 嘿嘿,嘿(0 bytes ) (8 reads)2004-01-21
• 上海外灘。 [品茶小軒] - 沒胃口的狗(0 bytes ) (9 reads)2004-01-09
• 夢冉應該是杭州人吧? 難道重劃省份把上海歸杭州管轄了? [品茶小軒] - 迷惑得葉子都掉光的棉(0 bytes ) (9 reads)2003-12-15
• 上海的冬天 [品茶小軒] - 夢冉(261 bytes ) (265 reads)2003-11-22
• 在上海，我找不到感覺 [品茶小軒] - 吹雪(267 bytes ) (89 reads)2003-11-22
• 從大學畢業到出來的幾年大都在上海，讓你這麽一講還真想回去看看 [品茶小軒] - 999roses(0 bytes ) (7 reads)2003-11-22
• 上海的治安被黑幫侵濁,不少行業如建築為其滲透. [品茶小軒] - 不問有言(0 bytes ) (15 reads)2003-11-03
• 上海的治安 [品茶小軒] - 真實的中國(3965 bytes ) (126 reads)2003-11-03
• 活在上海的22種風花雪夜 [品茶小軒] - 儂儂。(3769 bytes ) (121 reads)2003-09-21

約翰雷客霄 Burlington, Ca.
Post for personal interest, and revised on Tuesday, March 25, 2008
Contact: [e-mail] (China) [e-mail] ( International )
________________________________________