張維為 中國的政治體製與西方不同

中國的政治體製與你所知不同 | 與張維為教授一起理解中國

李菁菁 李菁菁 2024年11月2日

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMyXK_d2B-4

在本期節目中，我與複旦大學中國研究院院長張維為教授進行了對話，探討了中國的政治體製、其成功之道以及西方對中國的錯誤認識。

我認為西方社會、西方主流媒體甚至許多學者都犯了一種錯誤，因為他們不知何故相信這種我認為非常膚淺的範式，它被稱為民主或專製，如果不是西方民主，那就是專製。美國的主要問題在於……嗯，我想……在中國，我該怎麽說呢？字麵意思是混亂的思維。你知道他們不知道如何與中國打交道，如何應對中國，他們沒有真正的戰略。如果我們看看他們的計劃，我們就知道從第一天起就不會奏效。貿易戰一旦發動，就會失敗。從對華技術戰的第一天起，它就會徹底失敗。我說它會徹底失敗，因為他們沒有整體戰略，這意味著他們真的不了解中國。美國的一些人更願意進行一種新的冷戰，冷戰是基於這種愚蠢的相互保證毀滅的概念，我很久以前就提出了這個概念，我說針對中國。美國，我們應該擁抱共同繁榮，地圖比瘋狂好得多。

李菁菁

我和獨一無二的約翰·韋·韋教授一起，我相信你們中的很多人已經認識他了，他是國際關係學教授，也是福達大學中國研究院院長。約翰·韋·韋教授是您著作的忠實粉絲，我認為很多學者或對中國感興趣的其他國家人士對中國的製度、文化有很多疑問。沒問題，來吧，我想我們會盡力幫助他們理解一點，例如，因為最近中國的崛起和中國在很多方麵的成功讓很多人，尤其是西方國家的人們開始思考，為什麽所謂的非常完美的西方民主製度麵臨越來越多的內部鬥爭，而中國的製度被貼上如此多的標簽，被妖魔化，實際上可以
完成任務，在過去幾十年裏取得了如此大的進步。與西方相比，中國的製度有哪些優勢？

張薇薇

在西方社會，或者西方主流媒體，甚至許多學者，呃，都犯了某種錯誤，因為他們不知何故相信這種我認為非常膚淺的範式。它被稱為民主或專製，如果不是西方的民主，那就是專製。我很久以前就說過，我曾周遊世界100多個國家。我說，如果社會，全球，無論什麽政治，都必須分為兩類，那就是善治或惡治。善治可以體現在西方政治製度中。

中國的政治製度就是一個很好的例子。西方的惡治也一樣。我給你100個例子，西方政治製度的失敗也一樣。

非西方製度也可能失敗。所以我認為，我們專注於善治，那麽我們能夠完成的事情就是善治非常重要的一部分。例如，看看歐洲。如果我沒記錯的話，歐洲將率先倡導綠色協議。

能源轉型。可再生能源多少年過去了？結果如何？中國取得了我們所取得的成就。我們知道，中國生產了全球60%到70%的可再生能源設備，而電動汽車是中國唯一實現這些目標的主要國家。歐洲的提案呢？這項協議已經不多見了。德國也一樣，在2013年建造了令人印象深刻的工廠，被稱為“工業4.0”。中國對這項提案和計劃印象深刻。中國製定了自己的計劃，稱為“中國製造2025”，借鑒了德國計劃的許多元素。當然，它比德國計劃要大得多。還有10年。世界各國的計劃已經成型，但中國的計劃已經成功完成。我稱之為“中國模式”。例如，為了綠色協議，為了能源轉型，我們製定了多個五年計劃，分別是電動汽車五年計劃、四個五年計劃，每個五年計劃20年。四個五年計劃
每個五年計劃我們都會審查成功的程度，哪些地方不成功的部分。 然後我們不僅每五年進行調整，而且每年都會進行調整。

春季我們有兩會和人民代表大會以及人民協商會議。年底，通常是11月底12月初，我們會召開黨中央經濟工作會議。

會議重點審查年度計劃的執行情況，以及我們應該在哪些方麵繼續推進，在哪些方麵需要改進，在哪些方麵需要糾正錯誤。然而，它已經非常成熟，製度化。中國式民主，也就是我們所說的協商民主，每個五年計劃都涉及中國社會各階層數百、數千次的協商，國家結構也如此。印度的生產計劃是可行的，可以落實到我們每一個人身上。所以，每當我們製定計劃時，我們都會認真執行，每年的兩會上，中國總理都會回應來自會場的請求。我們去年製定了一個計劃，說我們製定了25項承諾、目標，哪些目標我們已經實現了，哪些目標100%實現了，哪些目標70%實現了，哪些目標80%實現了，這被稱為問責製、響應式政府，所以它真的比西方政治體製更民主。西方政治體製更注重公開聲明、競選宣言。我認為它應該足夠謙虛，可以學習中國模式。我們有很多好的經驗可以與他們分享。所以，你剛才提到的，我想也得到了我所交談過的來自不同大陸的人們的共鳴。例如，上個月我們舉行了“假新聞”會議，許多非洲專家也告訴我同樣的事情。我問他們為什麽。你會關注“假新聞”，你知道，當中國領導人說他們想做某事時，他們是認真的。巴基斯坦在過去幾十年裏一直如此堅定，他們知道會發生什麽。他們知道中國致力於……就像你提到的電動汽車，許多領導人，也許一些西方領先的公司，20年前都在嘲笑中國的模式。中國公司，比如中國公司，在電動汽車領域毫無進展。但看看現在，那些曾經被嘲笑的模式，現在已經是世界上最領先的競爭對手。所以，當中國說了什麽，它非常一致。即使領導人改變了政策，他們也致力於這樣做。扶貧也是如此。是的，所以我認為這讓很多中國以外的人開始懷疑，一個政府在過去100年裏怎麽可能如此始終如一。你知道，我提出“文明國家”的概念，是因為中國在某種程度上是獨一無二的。中國於公元前221年首次統一。從那時起，中國在大多數時間裏都是一個統一的國家，由一個統一的統治實體統治，或者用今天的話來說，就是我們熟悉的一黨製。但在這個所謂的統一統治實體背後，過去和現在都是一種我稱之為“賢能政治”的結構。中國發明了公務員考試製度，也就是K係統，現在它已經適應了今天，它非常現代化，現在被稱為“選拔+選舉”。如果你看看中國最高領導層的履曆，你會發現，他們基本上是中國省份第一把手的兩倍，實際上，他們在擔任現職之前已經統治了超過1億人。所以，我毫不懷疑，中國的最高領導人是當今世界上最有能力、最有經驗的人之一。然後，你會看到一個UniFi統治實體，它的標誌是下巴上的共產黨，我稱之為整體利益黨，這又是中國悠久曆史的傳統，但它已經現代化了。這就是為什麽如果我們是一個整體利益黨，而西方的政治體係是由部分利益構成的。或者說黨派利益黨，所以你不能指望英國工黨製定計劃，保守黨會繼續執行。他們不會廢除計劃並進行修改。但中國是一個政黨，它正在發揮作用，但它不是西方式的政治黨派利益黨，而是一個整體利益黨。黨內有黨內民主，我們會辯論，討論很多問題。我跟很多美國通才說過，你知道，從文化大革命到改革開放的轉變，其規模遠遠大於
你們共和黨或民主黨追求的許多變革。

嗯，好的。所以這些變化發生在中國黨內，轉型已經完成，這就是為什麽我們可以繼續執行這個計劃，我們可以規劃未來5年、10年以及下一代。這是中國模式和中國體製的巨大優勢。例如，扶貧是一項如此巨大的工程，不可能在4年、5年或像一位領導人那樣，在短短4年、5年或更長時間內完成。它已經由一代又一代的人們、專家們繼續推進，致力於解決這個問題。這就是為什麽，這也提出了對於美國、英國、西方和南加州的民主製度來說，這是一個非常嚴重的問號，因為這個製度是關於選舉的，它或多或少是由選民驅動的，如果是51%的得票率，贏者通吃，首先，對於擁有14億人口的中國來說，如果是贏者通吃，5%的人會贏，國家就會分裂，中國人不會接受這一點，你知道，規模很重要，其次，你必須對後代負責，對那些還沒有出生的人負責，下一代，所以這些是不反映西方的政治體製，所以正如我告訴亞馬教授的那樣，這個體製必須得到修正，必須徹底改革，否則你就無法競爭，無法應對來自21世紀的挑戰。是的，我認為，在過去的五到十年裏，我們看到西方主流媒體上反華宣傳日益猖獗，與此同時，我們也看到了對中國企業的製裁，例如將中國頂尖的人工智能公司列入黑名單，或者對中國的電動汽車征收關稅，以及各種試圖打擊中國崛起的舉措。我想知道，從你的角度來看，中國做了什麽，觸動了一些政府最敏感的神經。美國的主要問題是，嗯，我想，我該怎麽說呢？中國的狀態是，字麵意思是，混亂的思維，你知道他們不知道，如何相互應對，如何應對，他們沒有一個真正的戰略。你知道，如果我們看一下無論他們的計劃如何，我們都知道，從聯合國強加的貿易戰第一天起，它就行不通了。這將是失敗，100%的失敗。從他們對中國發動的科技戰來看，我說過，這將徹底失敗，因為。當他們沒有整體的戰略時，這意味著他們真的。了解中國，因為它是成功的。中國模式的成功基於馬雲主席和主席倡導的哲學，即實事求是。當我們看美國，當我們看歐盟時，我們看它的優勢、劣勢、優點和弱點，所以我們根據它們各自的優點來處理。我們確實有這種歐美意識形態。你知道我們是最好的製度，你必須像我們一樣皈依。這非常愚蠢。哦，我們的文明比現在還要長5000年，人們必須有一定的謙虛。在與大文明打交道時，你知道我們看到一些非常幼稚的預測，你知道你看到一個又一個關於中國的預測的失敗。你知道，從……的崩潰開始。中國每三五年就會崩潰一次，中國非常愚蠢，目光短淺。眾所周知，短期主義是西方政治體係的典型特征，而長期主義在戰略層麵上更是如此，長期主義總是勝出。此外，不久前我們在法國，與法國智庫討論過。你提到了Teron電動汽車，我說過要小心，我隻是想告訴你，一旦你了解了印度，你就會後悔為什麽。因為今天的電動汽車是另一種技術，這種競爭或多或少就像我們過去記得的，電影是富士和柯達之間的競爭，最終它們都被數字技術取代了。所以，電動汽車是一種數字技術，它是智能AI，無論應用到什麽地方，它都已經與傳統汽車截然不同。所以，如果你拒絕這種新型技術，這種技術是一維的，甚至是二維的，那麽你就會失去這個機會。中國共產黨在其官方文件中提到，一項原則是，我們代表最先進的生產力，這意味著無論哪裏出現新技術，我們都應該首先擁抱它，然後努力應對它們對我們應用這項技術的方式提出的任何挑戰，開發這項技術。所以，如果你看看德國工業4.0失敗的原因，一個主要原因是他們聽信了美國人，停止了與華為和阿裏雲的合作，這些是世界上最好的電信公司。雲計算業務，如果你放棄最好的技術，你也會失去同樣的技術。我可以舉很多其他例子。我的最後一個問題是，你對這場地緣政治衝突可能的結果有何看法？誰會贏，誰會輸？美國的主要問題是，如果他們能改變思維方式，那麽擁有它將會很容易。這對中美兩國都大有裨益，對全世界也一樣。有些人更傾向於擁有一種新的冷戰。戰爭，冷戰，就是建立在這種愚蠢的“相互保證毀滅”概念之上。我很久以前就提出了這個想法，我說，對於中國和美國，我們應該擁抱“相互保證繁榮”的地圖。這比“相互保證毀滅”好得多。德國哲學家伊曼紐爾·K曾說過，他是一位富有遠見卓識的人物。他說，最終，人們都應該擁抱和平，但隻有兩種方法：一種是通過戰爭、戰爭、毀滅和死亡，最終實現和平；另一種是通過國際法等智慧。我們，應該選擇第二種方法，這樣，我們就能……印度和美國就會意識到，當他們放棄“相互保證毀滅”的思維模式時，是的，那麽我們都將從地緣政治緊張局勢中獲益。非常感謝約翰教授。

China's political system is different from what you know | Understanding China w/ Prof. Zhang Weiwei

Li Jingjing 李菁菁   2024年11月2日 

In this episode, I spoke to Professor Zhang Weiwei, Dean of the China Institute at Fudan University, to discuss China's political system, why it can get things done, how the West got wrong on China.

I think the Western uh Society or Western mainstream Media or even many academics uh made a kind of mistake because they somehow believe in this I think very superficial Paradigm it's called the Democracy or autocracy if not Western Star de democracy then it's autocracy the main problem with United States it is in the status of um I think uh how should I put it in China with Shing literal translation is chaotic mind you know they don't know how to deal with China how to cope with China that they don't have a real strategy you know if we look at their plans whatever we know it will not work from day one when trade War imposed by it will be failure 100% failure from day one of tech war against China I said it will fail completely because when they have don't have the overall strategy and which means they are really understanding China as it is some in the
America in in United States prefer to have a kind of new Cold War the cold war is based on this stupid concept of mutually assured destruction mad I put forward a long time ago I said for China United States we should embrace mutually assured Prosperity map map is much better than mad 

Li Jingjing 

so I'm joined by the one and only professor John way way I'm sure many of
you already know him he's the professor of international relations the dean of
China Institute at Fooda University Professor JN big fan of your work and I
think a lot of Scholars or people who are interested in China in other
countries they have so many questions about China's system about China's
culture no problem come on I think we will try to help them to understand a
little bit for example because the recent China's rise and China's success
in many aspects a lot of people in particularly in Western countries start
to wonder why the so-called very um perfect Western democracy is facing more
and more internal struggles but China
the system has been put on so many
labels and being demonized can actually
get things done and made so much
progress in the past few decades what's
the advantages of China's system
compared to Western 

Zhang Weiwei

in the western Society or Western mainstream Media or
even many academics uh made a kind of
mistake because they somehow believe in
this I think very superficial Paradigm
it's called the Democracy or autocracy
if not Western Star de democracy then
it's autocracy I said a long time ago I
said I traveled around the world to over
100 countries I said if the society the
glob Global whatever politic has to be
divided into two categories it must be
good governance or bad governance and
good governance can pick for of Western
political system can take form of other
political system Chinese one is a good
example same with bad governance Western
system I give you 100 examples failure
is of Western political system same
non-western system can be a failure so I
think we focus on good governance then
what we can get things done is part of
this good governance very important if
you look at the Europe for instance
Europe will the first if I'm not wrong
the earliest to Advocate a green deal
energy transition to Renewables how many
years have passed what's the result but
China has achieved that we have made
this transition we know produce 60 70%
of world's renewable energy equipment
and EV vehicles done CH the only major
country that achieved these objectives
what about European proposal idea this
de agreement no longer much there and
same with Germany which produced this
very impressive plants called the
industry 4. zero in the year 2013 and
China was deeply impressed by that
proposal and that plan and China
produced its own plan called the made in
China 2025 and Drew a lot of elements
from the German plan of course it's much
bigger than the German plan 10 years
have left have passed World German plan
it's already in tatus but Chinese plan
already successful completed more or
less behind this what I call the Chinese
model for inst for the green deal for
the energy transition we made a number
of 5year plans for Ev Vehicles EV cars
four 5e plans 20 years every four five
year plan every 5e plan we will examine
to what extent is successful where it is
successful where it's not successful
then we make readjustments not only for
every five years but for every year in
the spring we have two sessions people's
congress people's consultative
conference and then at the end of the
year usually late November early
December we have a economic Conference
of the Party Central Committee which
focus on examination of the annual plan
and how is it been performed how far we
should continue how far we should
improve how far we should correct our
mistakes whatever so already very
sophisticated very institutionalized
Chinese style democracy what we call the
consultative democracy and for each
fiveyear plan it involves hundreds
thousands of consultation at all level
of Chinese society and state structure
Indian producer plan that is workable
that is can be implemented very down to
us so whenever we have a plan we mean it
it has to be implemented and each year
in the two sessions Chinese Premier will
be responsive to the request from the
floor we made a plan last year say we
made the 25 commitments targets
objectives which one we have fulfilled
which one 100% which one 70% which one
80% one by one that's called accountable
responsive government so it's really
more democratic than the Western
political system which is more about uh
you know make public statement the
campaign statement and I think it should
be modest enough to learn from Chinese
model we have so much so much what have
good experience to share with them so
what you me just mentioned I think also
echoed by people from different
continents that I've talked to for
example in last month we had the fak
meeting and many African experts told me
the same thing was like I ask them why
you pay attention to fak like you know
when China's leaders says they want to
do something they mean it they mean it
and Pak has been so consistent for the
past few decades and they know what to
expect they know China is committed to
this like you mention the electric
vehicles many leaders maybe the some
leading Western companies 20 years ago
they were laughing at China's models
China's companies like the Chinese
companies going nowhere at the EVS but
look at now the models that used to
laugh at now has been the most leading
competitors in the world so when China
says something it's very consistent the
leaders even though change but the
policies don't change the committed to
do that so so same thing with the
poverty alleviation yeah so I think um
it caused a lot of people outside China
start to wonder how is that possible for
one government to be so consistent in
the past like 100 years and uh you know
I Advance this concept of civilizational
State because China is in a way unique
because China was first unified in 221
BC and uh since then in most time China
was a unified country and governed by a
unified ruling entity or in today's
words one party system we had that we're
familiar with that but behind this
so-called unified ruling entity was and
today is a structure I call the
meritocracy China invented examination
system for public servants K system and
now it has been adapted to today is it's
very modern now it's called the I call
this selection plus election selection
first if you look at the profiles of the
Chinese top leadership you know
basically at least twice as number one
of Chinese Province literally they have
governed over 100 million people before
they come to their current positions so
I have no doubt whatsoever the Chinese
top astion leaders is among the most
competent most experienced in the world
today and then you have a a UniFi ruling
entity symbol by chin Communist party I
called holistic interest party which is
again a tradition for China's long
history but it's modernized that's why
if we are a holistic interest party the
Western political system is made up of
partial interest or partisan interest
parties so you cannot expect UK's labor
party make a plan and conserv party will
continue it no they will scrap it and
change it but China is one party
this is working but it's not western
style political partisan interest party
it's a holistic interest party and
within party you have in party democracy
we debate we discuss many issues I told
the many American generalist I said you
know this transition from cultural
revolution to reform and opening up the
scale of change is much greater than
many of your whatever changes pursued by
uh okay by the Republican Or democrats
so this changes have happened taken
place within China within the party and
transition made so this why we can
continue with this plan and
so we can plan for next 5 years next 10
years and Next Generation that's huge
advantage of Chinese model and Chinese
system yeah for example poverty
alleviation is something so huge that
cannot be done just within four years
five years or like one uh leader it has
been carried on by generations of
generations of people experts dedicated
to Sol this issue and that's why and
this has also posed a really very
serious question mark say for the
American British Western So-Cal
democracy because that system is say
about election it's more or less driven
by the voters and if it's 51%
and Winner Takes all in the first place
in the case of China with a population
of 1.4 billion if it's Winner Takes all
5 wi% will win the country will break up
Chinese will not accept that you know
size matter the second thing you have to
be responsible for Generation to come
for those who have not yet been born
Next Generation so these are not
reflecting Western political system so
that system as I told the professor f
Yama has to be fixed has to be reformed
thoroughly substantially otherwise you
cannot compete you cannot cope with the
Challenge from the 21st century yeah I
think in recent five to 10 years we saw
this uh Rising anti-china propaganda on
Western mainstream media and together
with the anti-china propaganda we also
saw sanctions on China's Enterprises
blacklisting China's top for example AI
company or uh adding tariffs on China's
EVS all kinds of efforts trying to crack
down China's rise I'm wondering from
your point of view what China has done
that touches the most sensitive nerves
of some governments uh the main problem
with United States it is in the status
of um I think how should I put it in
China with is sh literal translation is
chaotic mind you know they don't know
how to deal with each other how to cope
with each other that they don't have a
real strategy you know if we look at
their plans whatever we know it will not
work from day one when trade War imposed
by un it will be failure 100% failure
from they of tech war against China I
said it will fail completely because
when they have don't have the overall
strategy and which means they are really
understanding China as it is the success
of Chinese model is based on the
philosophy which was advocate by both
chairman Ma and chairman being called
seeking truths from Facts when we look
at United States when we look at unit
European Union we look at as it is it's
strength it's weakness it's good points
weak points so we deal with that uh on
their own merits we do have this
European American ideological uh friendy
you know we are the best system you must
be converted like us this is very stupid
we oh civilization 5,000 years longer
people have to have a certain modesty
dealing with big civilization you know
we look at some of like very childish
you know you look at the fail of the
prediction about China one after another
you know from the collapse of China
every three or five years another
collapse of China another collapse of
China very stupid very shortsighted
short termism is known to all is a
typical feature of Western political
system all much more long long
termism in strategic terms long-termism
always win out furthermore we were in
France not long ago and we were
discussing with the French Think Tank
you mention this teron EV vehicles I
said look out you know I just tell you
once you know Indian you will regret why
because today's EV Vehicles is another
type of tech technology this competition
is the most like more or less like you
know in the past we all remember about
the film is the competition between Fuji
or Koda in the end they are both
replaced by digital technology so this
EV vehicle is a digital technology it's
intelligent AI whatever applied it's
already very different from traditional
cars so if you refuse
new type of Technologies which is
onedimensional high if not two then you
will lose this opportunity if you look
at Chinese Communist party in its
official document it says one principle
is we represent the most advanced
productivity or most advanced productive
Force which means whereever there new
technology first R technology we should
embrace it then try to deal with
whatever challenges they impose on the
way that we apply this technology
develop this technology so if you look
at why Germany industrial 4.0 failed one
major thing is they listen to the
Americans they stop their cooperate with
Huawei with Ali Cloud these are the best
in the world in the telecommunication in
Cloud business if you cut yourself with
the best Technologies you lose the same
with uh other I could give many other
examples my last question is what's your
vision for the possible outcomes of this
geopolitical conflict who will win who
will lose the main problem with United
States if they can change their mindset
you know it will be easy to uh have it
will be great for both China United
States for the whole world some in the
America in in United States prefer to
have a kind of new Cold War the cold war
is based on this stupid concept of
mutually assured destruction
mad I put forward a long time ago I said
for China United States we should
embrace mutually assured Prosperity map
map is much better than mad and German
philosopher Emmanuel K had a statement
very with Visionary with visions he said
in the end people should all
Embrace peace but there are only two
approaches one through War wars
destruction deaths and then in the end
you reach peace the other is through
wisdom through international law Etc we
should choose the second
approach then we can India and United States will realize
that when they drop the mindset of
mutually assured destruction into M yeah
then we all win yeah from this
geopolitical tensions right thank you so
much professor John thank you so much