風蕭蕭_Frank
以文會友
Jeffrey Sachs 19世紀最暴力國家是英國，自1950最暴力國家是美國
雅典民主論壇 民主十年：中國和俄羅斯
A decade of democracy: China and Rusia
Athens Democracy Forum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjCcctr3BxU&t=450s
2022年10月7日
十年前，習近平登上中國國家領導人的寶座，弗拉基米爾·普京開始第二次擔任俄羅斯總統。在接下來的十年裏，兩人都鞏固了對各自國家的權力，如今，兩人都毫無歉意地共同宣稱，他們的專製、無情、大男子主義統治是一種更有效的民主模式，贏得了全世界的崇拜者和模仿者。隨著普京將這種模式推向難以想象的極端，這對同胞和有抱負的獨裁者產生了什麽影響？防止這種模板進一步複製的最佳方法是什麽？
雅羅斯瓦夫·庫伊什（Jaroslaw Kuisz），《自由文化報》主編
傑弗裏·薩克斯（Jeffrey Sachs），哥倫比亞大學可持續發展中心主任
蘇雲·吳（Su Yun Woo），蘇黎世大學政治科學研究所博士後研究員
主持人：史蒂文·埃爾蘭格（Steven Erlanger），《紐約時報》歐洲首席外交記者
Jeffrey Sachs 雅典民主論壇精彩內容
Jeffrey Sachs Highlights from Athens Democracy Forum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP_SpW-DyQg&t=2s
社會有著根深蒂固的政治文化和傳統，這些文化可以追溯到很久以前，無論好壞，這些文化都是真實的，它們是持久的，它們是不同的，它們不能像我們想要的那樣簡單地排列出哪個是最好的，哪個是最壞的，我需要一種方法，我非常喜歡你說的話，也同意你的觀點，呃，有不同的敘述
人們持有這些不同的敘述，這些不同的敘述各有優點，在一個充滿不同敘述的世界中，解決辦法是比我們在美國更多地相互交流，我說我們，我真正的意思是，我們的政治精英不會與中國的政治精英交談，除非指責他們或對他們大喊大叫或做其他事情，我們當然不會與俄羅斯領導人或外交官握手，但我在 42 年的現役生涯中，一直在傾聽不同的意見敘述，從不同角度看待這些觀點，發現各種立場都有很多優點，如果你坐下來互相交談，我們實際上會有所收獲，所以讓我具體說一下，今天的中國與漢朝並沒有什麽不同，它是一個中央集權的行政國家，有著儒家文化，有著官僚卓越的傳統，當我與中國高級官員交談時，我經常與他們打交道，他們是我所知道的世界上知識最淵博的專業人士，當我與他們打交道時，他們知道自己的職責，他們經驗豐富，訓練有素，有時是我的學生，他們相信中央集權行政國家的專業卓越，這種政治文化已有 2000 多年的曆史，當你看俄羅斯時，它看起來很像普京，看起來很像，這很難，這不是偶然的，這是一種權威文化和傳統文化，當我看自己的國家美國時，它是一個半民主的白人主導的等級種族主義社會，旨在維護精英的特權，這就是它在 1787 年成立的原因，它是一個奴隸製國家種族滅絕的國家，為了白人文化而屠殺美洲原住民，但令人驚訝的是，情況仍然如此，盡管我們現在比以前更加多元化，所以讓我問你這個問題，傑夫，因為現在這是一個很好的觀點，這些是深刻的文化差異，對吧，但我們不應該僅僅因為我們說民主而簡化，你知道這些是的，這很重要，重要的是細節，正如我昨晚提到的柏拉圖民主，這是他最不關心的事情，那是敵人，當然，他是一位哲學家國王，就在共和國，對於亞裏士多德來說，這是一個更加微妙和複雜的治理體係，混合了少數人和多數人的治理，但在《總帳》的好的一麵，我想再說一點關於民主的事情，因為我們在一個民主論壇上，我們將民主視為好事，19 世紀世界上最暴力的國家，也許是最民主或第二民主的國家，那就是英國，你可以在國內民主，在國外殘酷地帝國化，世界上最暴力的國家自 1950 年以來一直是 美國
A decade of democracy: China and Rusia
Athens Democracy Forum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjCcctr3BxU&t=450s
Jeffrey Sachs
我的經驗是，不同的社會有著根深蒂固的政治文化和傳統，這些文化可以追溯到很久以前，有好的也有壞的，這些文化是真實的，是持久的，是不同的，它們不能像我們想要的那樣，簡單地用一個尺度來衡量，即這是最好的，這是最壞的，我們需要一種方法，我非常喜歡你說的話，也同意你的觀點，人們持有不同的觀點，這些不同的觀點各有優點，在一個充滿不同觀點的世界中，解決辦法是比我們在美國更多地相互交流，我說我們真正的意思是，我們的政治精英不會和中國的政治精英說話，除非指責他們，對他們大喊大叫，或者做其他事情，我們當然不會和俄羅斯領導人或外交官握手，但我在 42 年的現役生涯中，一直在傾聽不同的觀點，從不同的角度看待這些觀點，發現各種立場都有很多優點，如果你坐下來互相交談，我們實際上會讓我具體說一下，今天的中國與漢朝並無太大區別，是一個中央集權的行政國家，具有儒家文化，有著官僚卓越的傳統，當我與中國高級官員交談時，我經常與他們交談，他們是我所認識的世界上知識最淵博的專業人士，當我與他們打交道時，他們知道自己的職責，他們經驗豐富，訓練有素，有時是我的學生，他們相信去中央集權行政國家的專業卓越，這種政治文化已有 2000 多年的曆史，當你看俄羅斯時，它看起來很像普京，看起來很像 AAR，這不是偶然的，這是一種權威文化和傳統文化，當我看自己的國家美國時，它是一個半民主的、由精英主導的等級種族主義社會，旨在通過精英來維護特權，這就是它在 1787 年成立的原因，它是一個擁有奴隸的種族滅絕國家，為了白人文化而殺害美洲原住民，但令人驚訝的是，它仍然看起來是這樣，盡管我們現在比以前更加多元化，讓我問一下你這個，因為我想指出的是，這些是深刻的文化差異，對吧，但我們不應該僅僅因為我們說民主和 bl 而簡化，你知道這些是，是的，這很重要，重要的是細節，正如我昨晚提到的柏拉圖民主，這是他最不關心的事情，那是敵人，當然，他是哲學家國王，就在共和國，對於亞裏士多德來說，這是一個更加微妙和複雜的治理體係，混合了少數人和多數人的治理，但在《總帳》的好的一麵，我想再說一點關於民主，因為我們處於一種民主形式中，我們將民主視為好的，19 世紀世界上最暴力的國家可能是最民主的或第二民主的國家，那就是英國，你可以在國內民主，在國外殘酷地實行帝國主義，自 1950 年以來，世界上最暴力的國家是美國，它一直是迄今為止最暴力的國家。
史蒂文·埃爾蘭格
傑弗裏，我是主持人，夠了
傑弗裏·薩克斯
好的，我說完了
[掌聲] 激烈
A decade of democracy: China and Rusia
Athens Democracy Forum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjCcctr3BxU&t=450s
2022年10月7日
Ten years ago, Xi Jinping ascended to national leadership in China and Vladimir Putin began his second stint as Russia’s president. Over the next decade, both have consolidated power over their countries, and today both unapologetically and jointly proclaim their autocratic, ruthless, macho rule as a more effective model of democracy, winning admirers and imitators the world over. As Putin has pushed this model to unthinkable extremes, what has the effect been on fellow and aspiring autocrats? What is the best way to prevent the template from replicating even further?
Jaroslaw Kuisz, Editor in Chief, Kultura Liberalna
Jeffrey Sachs, Director, Center for Sustainable Development, Columbia University
Su Yun Woo, Postdoctoral Researcher, Institute of Political Science, University of Zurich
Moderated by Steven Erlanger, Chief Diplomatic Correspondent, Europe, The New York Times
Jeffrey Sachs Highlights from Athens Democracy Forum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP_SpW-DyQg&t=2s
societies have a very deep-rooted political cultures and traditions that extend far back in history and uh for good and for bad and that these cultures are real they are persistent they are different they don't rank an easy scale that this is the best and this is the worst like we want to do I and we need an approach I very much like what you said and agree with it uh there are different narratives
that are held and they these different narratives have Merit and the solution in a world of different narratives is to speak with each other more than we do we in the United States and I say we what I really mean is our political Elites do not speak with Chinese political Elites except to point fingers or to yell at them or to do other things we certainly don't even shake hands with Russian leaders or diplomats but I've lived my whole career for 42 years of active duty listening to different narratives and seeing those perspectives from different sides and finding a lot of Merit in the various positions and saying if you would sit down to speak with each other we'd actually get somewhere so let me be specific okay China looks today not completely different from the Han Dynasty a centralized administrative state and with Confucian culture with a tradition of Excellence of the mandarins when I speak with Chinese Senior officials which I do often they are the best informed professionals I know in the world when I deal with them they know their brief they're sophisticated well-trained occasionally my students and they believe in professional Excellence of it as centralized administrative State and that political culture is more than 2 000 years old when you are looking at Russia it looks a lot like Putin looks a lot like it's hard it's not an accident that is a culture of authority and a culture of tradition when I look at my own country the United States it is a semi-democratic white dominated hierarchical racist society that aims to preserve privilege by the elites that's how it was formed in 1787 it was a slave owning genocidal country killing Native Americans for a white culture but amazingly it still looks that way although we're much more diverse now than we were so let me ask you this Jeff because this is a good point now that these are deep cultural distinctions right but we shouldn't just simplify because we say democracy and you know these are yes it's important what's important is actually the details as I mentioned last night Plato democracy that was the last thing on his mind that was the enemy the the plus was a philosopher king of course right in in the Republic and for Aristotle it was much more subtle and complex of a system of governance that mixed governance by the one by the few and by the many but on the good side of The Ledger and one more point I want to make about democracy because we're in a democracy Forum where we we treat democracy as the good the most violent country in the world in the 19th century by fire was perhaps the most democratic or second most democratic and that was Britain you can be Democratic at home and ruthlessly Imperial abroad the most violent country in the world since 1950 has been the United States.
A decade of democracy: China and Rusia
Athens Democracy Forum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjCcctr3BxU&t=450s
Jeffrey Sachs
My experience is that different societies have very deepr rooted political cultures and traditions that extend far back in history and uh for good good and for bad and that these cultures are real they are persistent they are different they don't rank on an easy scale that this is the best and this is the worst like we want to do I and we need an approach I very much like what you said and agree with it uh there are different narratives that are held and they these different narratives have Merit and the solution in a world of different narratives is to speak with each other more than we do we in the United States and I say we what I really mean is our political Elites do not speak with Chinese political Elites except to point fingers or to yell at them or to do other things we certainly don't even shake hands with Russian leaders or diplomats but I've lived my whole career for 42 years of active duty listening to different narratives and seeing those perspectives from different sides and finding a lot of Merit in the various positions and saying if you would sit down to speak with each other we'd actually get somewhere so let me be specific okay China looks today not completely different from the Han Dynasty a centralized administrative State and with Confucian culture with a tradition of Excellence of the mandarins when I speak with Chinese Senior officials which I do often they are the best informed professionals I know in the world when I deal with them they know their brief they're sophisticated well-trained occasionally my students and they believe in professional Excellence of a de centralized administrative State and that political culture is more than 2,000 years old when you are looking at Russia it looks a lot like Putin looks a lot like AAR it's not an accident that is a culture of authority and a culture of tradition when I look at my own country the United States it is a semi-democratic wh dominated hierarchical racist society that aims to preserve privilege by by the elites that's how it was formed in 1787 it was a slave owning genocidal country killing Native Americans for a white culture but amazingly it's still looks that way although we're much more diverse now than we were let let me ask you this je because this is I want to point out that these are deep cultural distinctions right but we shouldn't just simplify because we say democracy and bl and you know these are yes it's important what's important is actually the details as I mentioned last night Plato democracy that was the last thing on his mind that was the enemy the the plus was a philosopher king of course right in in the Republic and for Aristotle it was much more subtle and complex of a system of governance that mixed governance by the one by the few and by the many but on the good side of The Ledger and one more point I want to make about democracy because we're in a democracy form where we we treat democracy as the good the most violent country in the world in the 19th century by far was perhaps the most Democrat ratic or second most democratic and that was Britain you could be Democratic at home and ruthlessly Imperial abroad the most violent country in the world since 1950 has been the United States it's been by far invol
Steven Erlanger
Jeffrey I'm your moderator and it's enough
Jeffrey Sachs
okay I'm done
[Applause]
