MAIN CURRENT ACTIVITIES
Co-Director, Geopolitical Economy Research Group, University of Manitoba (2015-present)
Secretary, Geopolitical Economy Research and Education Trust (2014-present)
Co-Editor, Geopolitical Economy Book series, Manchester University Press (2015-present)
MAIN PRIOR EMPLOYMENT
Principal Economist, Greater London Authority, 2001-2011
Senior Lecturer, University of Greenwich, 1991-2001
Freelance Programmer and Technical Trainer, 1965-1989
Freelance Programmer and Technical Trainer, 1965-198
Alan Freeman is a retired but research-active cultural economist. He formerly worked at for the Mayor of London, England where he held lead responsibility for the Living Wage, Innovation, Cultural and Creative Industries and benchmarking World Cities. He lives in Winnipeg, Canada
He is co-director with Radhika Desai of the Geopolitical Economy Research Unit.
With Hasan Bakhshi and Peter Higgs he has recently completed two report by the UK think tank called National Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts (NESTA), which established a new standard for the definition and measurement of the Creative Industries. He served as expert advisor to the UK DCMS taskforce on the creative industries which led to the adoption of this standard by DCMS. He is an expert advisor to the Global Cities Culture Forum and was lead editor for London: A Cultural Audit, the precursor of the Forum's activities in benchmarking the cultural assets and activities of 25 World Cities
He has published 98 articles on economics and politics and co-edited four books. He is co-editor, with Radhika Desai, of two book series: 'Geopolitical Economy' at Manchester University Press, and of 'the Future of World Capitalism', with Pluto Books. He is a vice-chair of the World Association for Political Economy.
He is one of the 'small club' of economists who predicted the crash of 2008, and in 2008 also predicted that the economic crisis would not leave the industrialised countries until and unless these countries undertook public investment on the scale associated with US government spending during World War II (about 55% of GDP).
His Higher Education qualifications are in Mathematics, Computing, and Economics His professional career includes 15 years as a programmer, 13 as a Senior Lecturer in Economics at the University of Greenwich, and 10 years as a civil servant at the GLA.
He is a Board member of Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra, Video Pool Manitoba, and Manitobans for the Arts
The Thucydides Trap has been a trending topic in China since when it was first introduced to China a decade ago. Numerous academic seminars and closed-door meetings had been devoted to its unsettling hypothesis, that the rise of a challenger, i.e. China, will inevitably lead to tension with the established power, i.e. the United States. The China Academy now has the pleasure of sharing Mr.Alan Freeman's insights on this very topic.
Mounting tensions between China and the USA have provoked a profound discussion among Chinese policymakers and scholars. Not surprisingly, US political and economic theories, at one time respected by Chinese intellectuals, evoke growing scepticism as, with growing confidence, China asserts a vision of the modern world at variance with US narratives.
It was taken seriously in the USA that war between China and America is inevitable. The US is blaming China for its own decline.
Alan Freeman, a former principal economist with the Greater London Authority and the co-director of the Geopolitical Economy Research Group joined the Thinkers Forum in discussing why the USA’s decline is not China’s fault.
The COVID-19 pandemic has caused devastating disruptions to our society. It has forced us to reflect upon the failings in the prevailing economic, social, and political models. As the world adapt to the “new normal”, we need to explore a theoretical approach that is pragmatic and effective enough to serve the common interests of humanity.
The Thinkers Forum is an international non-profit organization. In seeking answers to the ways forward, we bring together the world’s foremost thinkers, scholars, entrepreneurs and business leaders to discuss the pressing contemporary issues that go beyond the scope of the western agendas.
In this webinar, four experts take stock of the world economy in the wake of the escalating trade war between the USA and China. The webinar took place January 28, 2022. You can watch it here.
About this event
What is the real state of the world economy? In this webinar, our panelists assess the relative strengths of the two most important protagonists, China and the USA. As the rift between them deepens with the threat of direct military confrontation looming, propaganda has virtually replaced hard facts. Rumour and speculation are swirling about the USA’s post-COVID recovery whilst allegations that China is suffering a ‘slowdown’ are hard to distinguish from simple Cold War hype. At stake also are the social systems of the two economies, as the USA still struggles to throw off the pandemic by opening the vaults to Big Pharma, whilst China reigns in its property speculators and private technology companies, and goes ever more green, at the same time ambitiously re-centering its economy in response to the USA’s aggressive trade and technology restrictions. Our panel’s three experts dissect the war of words and detach facts from flimflam.
Speakers
Michael Hudson, financial analyst and president of the Institute for the Study of Long Term Economic Trends. He is distinguished research professor of economics at the University of Missouri–Kansas City and professor at the School of Marxist Studies, Peking University, in China. Hudson has served as an economic adviser to the US, Canadian, Mexican, and Latvian governments, and as a consultant to UNITAR, the Institute for Research on Public Policy, and the Canadian Science Council, among other organizations. Hudson has written or edited more than 10 books on the politics of international finance, economic history, and the history of economic thought.
Alan Freeman, co-director, with Radhika Desai, of the Geopolitical Economy Research Group (GERG) at the University of Manitoba. He was an economist at the Greater London Authority between 2000 and 2011, where he held the brief for the Creative Industries and the Living Wage. He wrote The Benn Heresy, a biography of British politician Tony Benn, and co-edited three books on value theory. He is honorary life vice-president of the UK-based Association for Heterodox Economics and a Vice-Chair of the World Association for Political Economy.
Mick Dunford, Emeritus Professor, University of Sussex, Visiting Professor, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Managing Editor, Area Development and Policy.
Michael Roberts worked as an economist in the City of London for various financial institutions for over 40 years – in the heart of the beast! He has written several books including: The Great Recession – a Marxist view (2009); The Long Depression (2016); Joint ed: World in Crisis (2018); Marx 200 (2018); and Engels 200 (2020). He is joint author with G Carchedi of a forthcoming book published this summer by Pluto Press: Capitalism in the 21st century – through the prism of value. He blogs regularly at thenextrecession.wordpress.com.
Moderator – Radhika Desai is a Professor at the Department of Political Studies, and Director, Geopolitical Economy Research Group, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada. She is the author of Geopolitical Economy: After US Hegemony, Globalization and Empire (2013), Slouching Towards Ayodhya: From Congress to Hindutva in Indian Politics (2nd rev ed, 2004) and Intellectuals and Socialism: ‘Social Democrats’ and the Labour Party (1994), a New Statesman and Society Book of the Month, and editor or co-editor of Russia, Ukraine and Contemporary Imperialism, a special issue of International Critical Thought (2016), Theoretical Engagements in Geopolitical Economy (2015), Analytical Gains from Geopolitical Economy (2015), Revitalizing Marxist Theory for Today’s Capitalism (2010) and Developmental and Cultural Nationalisms (2009).
now this is the first time a let's call
0:02
it a country of the global south or the
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third world has not merely challenged
0:06
the United States but is getting out of
0:09
the Trap that the United States puts
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everybody in it's China can't stop the
0:14
USA's decline it can contribute to the
0:18
solution by giving an example that
0:20
hopefully American people will start to
0:23
follow there's a tendency now for
0:25
Chinese opinion makers to become quite
0:29
disrespect respectful of Western policy
0:32
makers because they're beginning to fear
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that everything that is being said is
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just designed to to to confuse and and
0:40
to essentially to make things more
0:42
difficult for China greme Alis had
0:44
debates with Chinese Scholars and he
0:47
comes over as a person who's very
0:48
sincerely interested in avoiding War
0:51
which is good which is what Chinese
0:53
people want to do but I became concerned
0:57
that it was taken seriously in China
0:59
perhaps even more concerned that it was
1:01
taken seriously in the United States of
1:04
America because what he essentially
1:07
argues is that war between China and
1:09
America is
1:11
inevitable that's not merely a
1:14
pessimistic message but I think it's a
1:15
very dangerous message because if you
1:17
think war is inevitable then all you can
1:20
do is fight it there's no alternative
1:23
peaceful way but second it has the
1:27
effect because of the reasoning he
1:29
offers of putting the blame on China for
1:32
the tension but in in a subtle way many
1:35
anti-chinese commentators in the west
1:38
say that we don't like China because
1:40
China has done something which we judge
1:42
as morally wrong now there's a lot of
1:44
questions you can ask about the moral
1:46
standard of a nation that was built on
1:48
slavery but anyway they they seem to
1:51
think that they have the right to um to
1:54
judge what everybody else does but
1:56
Graham Allison doesn't say that China's
1:58
doing anything wrong what he says is the
2:01
problem is that China is growing so
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almost and I think this is the reason
2:05
for the interest of of Western of
2:07
Chinese Scholars he says the problem is
2:10
China is doing too well that China's
2:12
rise is a threat to America's
2:17
World position and he makes a historical
2:21
analogy and this is where thiddies comes
2:23
in he talks about ancient Greece in the
2:25
fifth century before before Christ which
2:29
is 2005 00 years ago and he says there
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was a very famous War called the pelian
2:36
war and this war was fought on Greek
2:39
territory now in fact I'm going to
2:41
suggest that that's the first historical
2:43
error he makes it wasn't fought on Greek
2:45
territory it's fought in the
2:47
Mediterranean but this was because the
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dominant power in in in Greece was was
2:52
Sparta and Athens was a rising power it
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wasn't as strong as Sparta but it became
2:59
quite well y quite rapidly and this was
3:02
perceived as a threat by Sparta now the
3:06
famous historian that everybody refers
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to when they want to talk about what
3:10
happened in that war is a man called
3:12
fusades and thides was is many people
3:16
think of him at least in the west as the
3:17
father of modern history he's the first
3:20
person to actually record attempt to
3:22
record historical facts as actually he
3:25
could to give a narrative which wasn't
3:27
just a story wasn't just like Homer who
3:29
who is is wonderful to read but um is
3:32
essentially just saying you know this
3:34
this is the legend he's saying I'm
3:36
attempting to ascertain what really
3:38
happened and he was himself a general so
3:40
he was involved in the war so a lot of
3:42
the incidents he was talking about he
3:44
knew because he was there sides is is
3:47
very widely trusted as a source he had a
3:49
history of the pelian war he makes one
3:52
remark where he says once Athens began
3:55
to rise war between Athens and Sparta
3:58
was inevitable
4:00
then he makes an analogy he says
4:03
everywhere you get a dominant power and
4:06
there is a rising power there will be a
4:09
great power conflict between the rising
4:11
power and the um previously dominant
4:14
power there he then extrapolates and
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says China and the USA are likee Athens
4:21
and Sparta now I'm very concerned
4:25
because particularly finding this was
4:27
taken very seriously by a number of of
4:29
Chinese Scholars and it's first of all
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it's not true even if you forget the the
4:34
history if you just look at the causes
4:36
of the China us conflict it's it's it's
4:38
just demonstrably not true the reason is
4:41
not China's rise the reason is America's
4:44
decline okay that's the first reason and
4:46
nothing China can do can stop America's
4:50
decline except persuade America to
4:52
become more like China in which case it
4:54
will succeed and stop worrying about
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declining but they resist the idea of
4:58
becoming like China therefore they carry
5:00
on declining and that decline is the
5:02
real cause of the growing gap between
5:04
China and the USA you see if you say
5:08
Sparta equals the United States of
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America and Athens equals China then
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you're saying this is a battle between
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uh a slave Run state that used to put
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its children out to die on the hills and
5:23
only kept the ones who survived because
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they were going to be Warriors that's
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the USA by this anal ology and Athens
5:31
the the center of world democracy is
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China so that's a little bit of a
5:35
problem for the
5:37
USA um but the second problem is that it
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wasn't athens's rise that provoked the
5:43
dispute it was when Athens converted
5:46
itself into an Empire and the historical
5:49
record on that is very clear Athens was
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was a naval power it was not a land
5:55
power and you only have to look at the
5:57
role that ships play in Athenian history
5:59
or I will just show you the map of the
6:01
Athenian Empire so that's Athens now
6:04
this is Greece on the left this little
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block here Sparta is down the bottom
6:09
here Athens is you see it's on the east
6:11
coast and Athens allies or its colonies
6:15
as what they called these these little
6:17
black dots went all around the aian sea
6:20
including all the way up to the Black
6:22
Sea incidentally all along the coast of
6:24
what is now turkey but was then Persia
6:27
it was a Mediterranean power and it was
6:28
attempting to set up a Mediterranean
6:30
Empire and the key moment in the war
6:33
which is when Athens started to lose is
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when the rulers of Athens converted this
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green Arc here they converted it from a
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defensive League against Persia not
6:45
against turkey against Persia over here
6:47
became became a big land power in only
6:50
50 years before the war broke out and
6:52
That Was Then the big threat they
6:53
converted that into an Empire and they
6:56
they went on a disastrous military
6:58
expedition to to to conquer Sicily when
7:00
they failed and the leader of that
7:02
expedition alcibiades then deserted to
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the Persians well nothing like that has
7:06
occurred in modern history it's a
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completely different sequence of events
7:10
and the cause was Athens converting
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itself into an Empire so if there's any
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lesson to be drawn from this it would be
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that under no circumstances convert
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yourself into an
7:22
Empire that would be to me the listen
7:25
that China which I think is drawing from
7:26
it I don't think there's any I don't see
7:28
any indication China has any aspirations
7:30
to become an Empire quite aart from
7:32
anything else it can see what happens by
7:34
looking at the USA if you try to do that
7:37
um so the historical analogy is wrong
7:40
and the current analogy is wrong so it's
7:43
not true in terms of today's events but
7:46
it's also not true in terms of the real
7:49
causes of the war between Athens and
7:52
Sparta and it's not true that every time
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you have a rising power that threatens a
7:58
dominant power power the dominant power
8:01
fights with the rising power and a very
8:04
classic example there are many and there
8:06
are many from Chinese history Chinese
8:08
historians have pointed out that there
8:10
are many incidents in the rise of the
8:12
history of China where this simply does
8:14
not apply that the dominant power
8:16
doesn't say oh you know we're GNA fight
8:18
you they say that's quite interesting
8:20
maybe maybe we can learn something for
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you maybe we can work together have a
8:23
bit of a battle and then sort things out
8:24
or whatever right
8:29
there's a very famous political military
8:31
leader called Phillip Philip of Macedon
8:34
and his son was Alexander and that was a
8:37
territory to the north of of Athens and
8:41
Alexander as we know was Victorious
8:44
against the Persians actually crashed
8:45
the Persians created an enormous World
8:48
spanning Empire it was always in
8:50
indirect contact by the con kingdoms and
8:53
qualities that came between but but
8:56
Alexander essentially you know reached
8:57
India and came in direct contact opened
9:00
up the trade routs is sort of
9:02
predecessor of the Bel Sil Silk Road you
9:05
can read many debates in Athens about
9:07
what to do about Phillip and there's a
9:09
debate and the debate had a majority in
9:12
favor of saying well Philip's quite a
9:14
good thing for us he will create
9:15
stability and we'll not have to worry
9:18
about fighting all these uh people like
9:20
Sparta and so on because we'll be part
9:22
of somebody else's Empire so let's do it
9:25
and in fact um Allison who wrote the
9:28
book about the FUSD trap he cites many
9:32
examples in which countries did go to
9:34
war with each other because of um great
9:37
power rivalry caused by the rise of a
9:40
new power and there's a lot of a lot of
9:42
theory around that world world systems
9:45
theory for example about the succession
9:47
of hegemons and so on which I think is
9:51
very suspect but anyway most interesting
9:53
is all Allison's examples start from the
9:56
dawn of capitalism there are 1500 years
10:00
between ancient Greece and the examples
10:03
he's citing he says nothing about
10:05
relation for example between Rome and
10:07
Germany or or or or Athens and and and
10:10
and
10:11
Alexander uh so that he's picked
10:14
something which is specific to an Era of
10:17
History which is very different from the
10:19
era of the ancient world it's it's a big
10:22
historical era which is known in history
10:25
and Alice I'm surprised that he doesn't
10:27
know it to suppose that simply because
10:29
something applies under one set of
10:31
economic and social and historic
10:33
conditions it applies under all of them
10:35
in fact I think the causes of the
10:37
conflicts that he sites are not the
10:40
inevitable rivalry between great Powers
10:43
but capitalism capitalism is an
10:45
inherently competitive system so it's
10:48
all about getting your share of the
10:49
wealth getting your share of colonies
10:52
and driving the other guys out of those
10:55
colonies so that you've got the more
10:58
power so Columbus for example the origin
11:02
of Columbus and the conquest of America
11:05
was that the Ottoman Empire dominated
11:09
Eastern trade so the capital the the the
11:12
rising cities of of Venice and Genoa uh
11:15
the Mediterranean cities who traded with
11:18
China could only trade via the Ottomans
11:22
and the Ottoman Empire also had big
11:25
access to sources of gold which was very
11:27
important because it was used for
11:28
trading and silver so they set out to
11:32
the West because they wanted to find an
11:33
alternative route originally an
11:35
alternative route to India so it was
11:38
motivated by competition from the GetGo
11:40
from 1492 onwards then successive
11:44
countries Rose to dominance England was
11:47
perhaps the first Holland it's argued or
11:49
the Netherlands rather was you know
11:50
perhaps the first seagoing hegemonic
11:53
Power then then England and France Rose
11:55
then England became the dominant
11:57
colonial power there's no question of it
11:59
and they really developed modern
12:00
capitalism then you have Rising
12:03
Challenger Powers you have Germany you
12:05
have America all of whom basically were
12:09
at odds with England and wanted to
12:11
replace it either to fight it or to
12:13
dominate it so the causes of the
12:15
conflicts which Allison traces are
12:18
really the rivals the Rivalry between
12:20
capitalist Powers now that is a problem
12:22
with the United States because it's a
12:24
capitalist power so it's inherently
12:27
competitive but that's not China's fault
12:30
that's that's America's fault now I'm
12:33
just going to see if I can share a graph
12:36
that kind of illustrates the
12:41
problem this is a graph of the GDP as
12:45
the gross domestic product the output of
12:48
the economic power of the United States
12:50
and it starts in 1950 and it goes up
12:52
till today you'll see it has declined
12:55
continuously basically since 1950 it has
12:58
a series crisis which correspond to
13:01
well-known events I'll give you an
13:03
example you look at 1974 there was a big
13:06
crash growth went down from 6% to 2% and
13:10
stayed between 2% and 3% for for a long
13:14
time and there was a big economic slump
13:16
in 1974 it was very famous at the time
13:19
it was the first occasion on which there
13:21
had been a slump of something like the
13:23
scale of 1929 in the west then it
13:27
recovered how did it recover well it
13:29
launched a fullon attack on the rest of
13:32
the World by the policies that we know
13:34
as neoliberalism it shot up interest
13:36
rates it drove many countries that had
13:39
been developing quite well such as you
13:42
know the countries of Latin America
13:43
countries many African countries drove
13:45
them into debt and used debt to impose
13:48
on them policies that basically meant
13:50
they would become exporters of primary
13:53
Goods exporters of products of cheap
13:56
labor and that the West would maintain
13:58
its technical dominance that was very
14:01
effective it increased us power growth
14:05
back up to 4.6% but look what happened
14:08
it crashed right down again to an even
14:10
lower level before next we get you know
14:13
the overthrow of the Soviet Union big
14:16
gain big temporary Leap Forward crashing
14:19
the the Soviet economy which true caus
14:22
of the rise of Putin because you know it
14:24
was a terrible thing for the for the
14:25
Russian economy as as one of the main
14:27
Architects Jeffrey now admits well
14:30
immediately after that it falls again
14:33
and then there's the um this is the this
14:35
is what happens after the the Asian
14:37
financial crisis when what the US
14:39
basically did is it got out of a big
14:41
Financial Mess by trying to get the uh
14:43
Japanese and Koreans to pay for it which
14:46
they did in the so-called reverse Plaza
14:48
Accords then you have 2008 and it's
14:51
crashed to a level of something like 0%
14:54
and it went up for a bit every time it
14:56
goes up you get the journalists saying
14:57
you know we're on the Recovery Road
14:59
we're back on the March but if you look
15:01
at the way that they describe the
15:03
figures the figures don't support the
15:05
theory because the period in which it
15:08
was supposed to have been doing
15:10
wonderfully it was actually expanding at
15:12
a rate of
15:14
2.5% this is the lowest Peak if you look
15:18
if you look at the tops of all these
15:20
things they keep going down so this is
15:22
the lowest peak in postwar history so
15:25
the United States is in historically a
15:28
very bad
15:29
position economically and that's what's
15:32
driving what it
15:37
does because it has two means of
15:40
reinforcing its strength one is which it
15:44
tried in the 1960s to attack its own
15:46
working class so there was a big onsa on
15:51
basically American wages and Trade union
15:53
power in the
15:54
1960s and what did you get 1968 you've
15:57
got the explosion of this then you got
16:00
the intersection of the Vietnam War and
16:02
the Civil Rights Movement which
16:04
originated one should not forget in the
16:05
Trade union movement Martin Luther King
16:08
who was the most famous spokesperson for
16:11
the Civil Rights Movement started off
16:13
very clearly in the defense of workers
16:15
rights because that's where most people
16:17
of color in the United States get their
16:19
living because of the oppressed
16:21
condition they find themselves and the
16:23
attempt to solve it by attacking the
16:25
working class was catastrophic it
16:28
provoked 1968 Rebellion threw American
16:31
society into into enormous
16:34
difficulties and every time that the
16:36
United States attacks its own working
16:38
class it runs into significant internal
16:42
difficulties sometimes take very
16:44
right-wing forms as for example Donald
16:46
Trump but but it runs into difficulties
16:48
so the other method is you get the rest
16:51
of the world to pay for your problems
16:53
you use your economic clout which is
16:56
essentially your technical superiority
16:59
to force them to supply you with cheap
17:01
raw materials products of cheap labor
17:04
minerals agricultural basic products
17:07
that's that's imperialism that's what
17:09
imperialism is and um this was very well
17:12
described by an Indian Economist in the
17:15
1920s 1924 a man a greatly neglected
17:19
thinker called MN Roy and he simply says
17:22
look the rich countries of the world
17:24
they didn't call them the West at that
17:26
time they just called them the rich
17:27
countries they uh exploit the labor of
17:32
four fifths of the world but the poor
17:35
countries can only exploit the labor of
17:37
their own country so they obviously have
17:39
an enormous Advantage they've got the
17:41
whole world working for them but the
17:43
whole world doesn't want to work for
17:45
them and so you have this um almost gut
17:49
reaction that has come out after the war
17:52
with Russia the Ukraine Russia War we're
17:54
country after country including
17:56
countries one would not have expected it
17:58
if you just judge it from the moral
18:00
standards of the USA countries with
18:02
quite right-wing governments
18:03
authoritarian repressive governments
18:05
Saudi Arabia India are saying no we're
18:08
not going along with this and the recent
18:10
visit of the United States plenty
18:12
potenti is to Africa was a complete
18:15
disaster that these African leaders that
18:17
they confronted who were being told go
18:21
along with us and fight Russia said no
18:22
we're not going to we we like working
18:24
with China we like working with Russia
18:26
it's better than what we got from you so
18:29
there's a general atmosphere of Revolt
18:31
amongst that four fifths of the world
18:32
who says we're fed out being being made
18:36
into the solution for America's problems
18:39
now the danger that China presents in
18:42
this respect is it shows that you don't
18:44
have to it shows that you can develop
18:47
your own economy Justin leuin put this
18:50
very well in a contribution I read in
18:52
which he calls it the new economic model
18:54
new econom some people I'm included
18:56
would say that it's actually social
18:59
um which is the view of the the Chinese
19:02
government and basically go along with
19:04
that that it's more economically
19:06
successful and even the United States
19:09
now this is the first time a let's call
19:12
it a country of the global south or the
19:14
third world has not merely challenged
19:16
the United States but is getting out of
19:19
the Trap that the United States puts
19:21
everybody in it's it's not being it's
19:24
not allowing itself to be the exporter
19:26
of primary Goods it's surpassing the USA
19:28
in many areas of technology I don't want
19:31
to exaggerate because the true standard
19:33
of technological achievement is not just
19:35
how many patents you have but how well
19:37
your people are doing but you see the
19:40
policies of China have done enormous
19:41
amount to eradicate uh the lowest levels
19:44
of poverty and I think we'll in time now
19:47
probably begin to eliminate the
19:48
inequality which is which has grown
19:50
under the marketization of the Chinese
19:52
economy and that's a phenomenal
19:54
technological there's no country in the
19:56
world has raised so many people out of
19:58
poverty in such a short space of time at
20:01
all so this is the real threat that
20:04
China presents to the USA is it's not
20:06
allowing itself to be ground down by the
20:08
USA now then the question is what can
20:13
you
20:17
do China can't stop the USA's decline it
20:21
can contribute to the solution by giving
20:25
an example that hopefully American
20:27
people will start to follow and I think
20:30
that's um a very real possibility and
20:32
has to be worked towards but ultimately
20:34
the solution lies in the hands of
20:36
American people uh and a European people
20:39
um and the answer consists of saying no
20:41
to the USA can't do it that way can't
20:44
carry on the way you've done you're
20:46
going to have to try something else so
20:49
this is the sort of main conclusion I
20:51
came to
20:53
[Music]
