風蕭蕭_Frank
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中國學者外媒專訪警告，俄烏再打下去，美國與全球均會遭殃
發布時間：2022-05-05 作者： 王文
http://www.rdcy.org/index/index/news_cont/id/693673.html
近日，人大重陽執行院長王文接受今日俄羅斯（RT）長達25分鍾的英文專訪，詳細闡述中國學者觀點，再次引起廣泛關注。
編者按：俄烏衝突以來，中國人民大學重陽金融研究院（人大重陽）先後在BBC、華爾街日報、華盛頓郵報、外交學人、南華早報外媒發聲發文，引起全球影響，為講好中國故事貢獻智庫力量。近日，人大重陽執行院長王文接受今日俄羅斯（RT）長達25分鍾的英文專訪，詳細闡述中國學者觀點，再次引起廣泛關注。現將視頻、中英文內容整理如下：
核心提要
■ 俄羅斯是被迫發動這次特別軍事行動，因為烏克蘭把加入北約寫入憲法，如果最後真的加入北約，意味著俄羅斯安全利益受到前所未有的威脅，俄羅斯晚動手，不如早動手。這正是為什麽許多中國人都同情、支持俄羅斯的重要原因。
■ 烏克蘭最好的戰略定位應該是成為東西方文明的橋梁，而不是成為美國與北約的女仆，成為西方壓製東方、壓製俄羅斯的工具。
■ 直到衝突爆發前一天，中國外交部仍沒有要求中國駐烏克蘭使館撤離，這已證明了中國並不知道實情。
■ 一個奇怪或不祥的數字巧合，即第一次世界大戰（1914年7月28日）、第二次世界大戰（1939年9月1日）和俄羅斯-烏克蘭衝突（2022年2月24日）的開始日期的每兩位數字之和都是相同的，讓我們更加警惕這場戰爭的危險性，如果在這麽下去，第三次世界大戰不是不可能。
■ 現在，美國媒體仍然占據著國際話語權，“西方中心論”仍然是占主流的。這就是剛提到的“國際論述”，我們需要去追求更大的全球平等與國際民主化進程。
RT：大家好，歡迎來到Worlds Apart。中國有句老話“寧為太平犬，莫作離亂人”。我們很多人可能很快就會驗證這個命題，因為我們幾年前所了解的世界正在迅速瓦解。那取而代之的會是什麽? 今天將要討論這個話題。我們邀請到了中國人民大學重陽金融研究院執行院長王文。王教授，很高興能與您對話，感謝您接受采訪。
王文：感謝你的邀請。
RT：中國學者並不以過於戲劇化的評估著稱。但我看到越來越多的學者，包括您，警告稱，有爆發大規模戰爭的危險，甚至可能是涉及核武器的全球戰爭。你是如何得出這個“不詳的”結論的？
王文：在我看來，衝突正在升級。隨著美國與北約對烏克蘭軍事援助的加大。俄烏衝突已不再是一個區域戰爭，而正在升級為俄羅斯對整個西方世界，尤其是對北約的軍事角力。我相信俄羅斯的戰爭意誌，如果西方壓力不斷加大，俄羅斯隻能被迫使用核武器，這是我非常擔心的。也希望盡快能夠俄烏之間恢複談判結束衝突，否則，人類將麵臨著更危險的時刻。
RT：現在有很多關於所謂的亞太支點的討論，現任的拜登政府和之前的幾屆政府都有提到。他們痛苦地、有時笨拙地，試圖從中東和阿富汗脫身。結果卻卷入了歐洲。你認為與俄羅斯在烏克蘭問題上的衝突，是故意的還是他們實際上是無意中卷入的。
王文：在我看來，俄羅斯是被迫發動這次特別軍事行動，因為烏克蘭把加入北約寫入憲法，如果最後真的加入北約，意味著俄羅斯安全利益受到前所未有的威脅，俄羅斯晚動手，不如早動手。這正是為什麽許多中國人都同情、支持俄羅斯的重要原因。在許多中國人看來，俄羅斯長期受到西方威脅，不得不采取回擊，這正是為什麽許多中國人都同情、支持俄羅斯的重要原因。
RT：我從你的文章中了解到，許多中國人也非常同情烏克蘭人民的遭遇，我不得不說，許多俄羅斯人對此也感到非常痛心。你將烏克蘭描述為“壯漢的身體，丫鬟的命”，盡管這聽起來令人不快，但很難否認這一點。因為烏克蘭無法從其戰略地位和自然資源中獲益，在某種程度上，它與阿富汗相似，因為阿富汗位於歐亞大陸的中心，它有非常豐富的資源，但所有這些都弊大於利。在烏克蘭問題，甚至是阿富汗問題上，到底是誰的錯？
王文：國際關係學理論中常說“大國的悲劇”，其實中等國家和小國也有悲劇，因為烏克蘭有豐富的資源，所以我說烏克蘭有“壯漢的身體”。如果這些中等國家和小國不能平衡好與其他大國的關係，就會有可能成為大國的依附品與犧牲品。烏克蘭最好的戰略定位應該是成為東西方文明的橋梁，而不是成為美國與北約的女仆，成為西方壓製東方、壓製俄羅斯的工具。烏克蘭的定位錯了 ，使得它成為這次衝突的最大輸家，這正是我擔心烏克蘭的原因。因為可能在衝突之後的未來，烏克蘭有可能會成為歐洲最貧窮、最糟糕的國家。
RT：你之前說過，你認為俄羅斯這場軍事行動實質上是被北約的持續侵犯被迫發動的。弗拉基米爾·普京授權了這次行動，他最後一次出國訪問是在中國。在我看來，這次訪問非常有趣，因為俄羅斯代表團上午抵達，一整天都在開會，並於晚上離開。所以在這些私人會麵中肯定有一些非常重要的事情需要解釋說明，畢竟在如此短的時間裏不惜長途跋涉（肯定要商討一些重要議題）。
你認為中國是否知道俄方要進行軍事行動的意圖？我知道無法確切地知道，也許隻有中國國家主席和普京總統真正了解，您認為是什麽?
王文：直到現在，我們仍然非常感謝普京總統在冬奧會開幕式時訪問北京，因為冬奧是中國的一大盛事。
RT：普京北京之行不是隻表達了對冬奧會的祝賀吧？我的意思是這背後也有一些重要的談話。
王文：實際上，我曾就這個問題詢問過一些中國官員，我也想知道普京總統在那次會談上是否向中方透露過一些秘密信息，但是我現在非常確定，中方不知道俄羅斯這次會發動這些特別軍事行動的消息。事實上，有足夠的證據證明，直到衝突爆發前一天，中國外交部仍沒有要求中國駐烏克蘭使館撤離，這已證明了中國並不知道實情。對此，不少中國人是有抱怨的，為什麽你們不向中國透露消息。但另一方麵，我們認為，俄羅斯是獨立自主的國家，有權做自己認為正確的事情。
RT：盡管我們尚不明確中國是否被告知俄羅斯的軍事意圖，但我們應該承認在這次軍事情動之前。俄羅斯和中國的關係就越來越密切，而在過去幾個月裏，這一關係更加緊密。中國方麵仍試圖表現出中立立場，表示中立本身就是獨立自主的表現，它沒有明確地站在美國霸權一邊。你認為這是故意的嗎？
王文：中國不會跟從美國去製裁俄羅斯，事實上，全世界80%的國家與人口都沒有跟從西方去製裁俄羅斯，西方在這次對俄製裁中被世界孤立了。在中國看來，製裁解決不了問題，隻會傷害普通老百姓的利益，中國一向反對美國霸權，但支持二戰以來的國際秩序。在中國看來，破壞二戰以來的國際秩序最大的國家是美國，美國不斷退出相關條約，挑動戰爭，成為全球的麻煩製造者。
RT：王教授，目前戰火仍在烏克蘭境內，我們都希望這種情況能持續下去，盡管世界各地已能感受到這次對抗帶來的連鎖反應。你覺得有什麽可能使這次衝突進一步蔓延，使這一軍事行動從地方或區域行動變成全球暴力行動?
王文：我不知道你是否知道，就在上周，中華人民共和國主席習近平提出“全球安全倡議”，我認為這個倡議非常重要。它呼籲堅持共同、綜合、合作、可持續的安全觀。我認為中國的這個全球安全倡議是有價值的，在現實主義大國政治的背景下，所以中國現在要推動國際體係，堅持遵守聯合國憲章，摒棄冷戰思維，反對單邊主義，不搞集團政治和陣營對抗，這是中國智慧和中國建議。
RT：你提到了中國國家主席，他也說過，世界各國乘坐在一條命運與共的大船上，要穿越驚濤駭浪，必須同舟共濟，企圖把誰扔下大海都是不可接受的。我覺得這句話很美，很具中國特色的比喻，那些想要“溺死”俄羅斯的美國人。他們已經不藏著掖著了，他們想要將俄羅斯扔下水，你認為這些美國人會聽中國的意見嗎？
王文：當然，我們希望美國人會聽這些建議，在中國人的安全觀中，人類就是在一條船上。現在，人類麵臨著非常危險的時刻。如同我在文章中，病毒、通脹、氣候變化、糧荒，還有戰爭，正在同時發生。現在，人類麵臨著非常危險的時刻，需要做的是人類團結，而不是隻顧自己國家的利益，在整個宇宙中，地球是渺小的。在地球中，任何一個國家也是渺小的。現在，一些國家尤其是美國，過於傲慢，常想著領導世界，而不善於團結他人。如果繼續這樣下去，遲早會受到曆史的懲罰。
RT：歡迎回到Worlds Apart，今日節目嘉賓是王文，他是重陽金融研究院的執行院長。王教授，你是一位嚴謹的學者，但在你的一篇有關全球戰爭日益增長的危險的文章中，你提到了一個奇怪或不祥的數字巧合，即第一次世界大戰（1914年7月28日）、第二次世界大戰（1939年9月1日）和俄羅斯-烏克蘭衝突（2022年2月24日）的開始日期的每兩位數字之和都是相同的，我知道中國傳統哲學賦予命理學很多意義。但我不知道你自己認為這一奇特的巧合有什麽意義。
王文：謝謝你閱讀我的文章，我大學本科的專業是曆史，我喜歡在曆史中尋找可供未來借鑒的教訓。這個數字的巧合，讓我們更加警惕這場戰爭的危險性，如果在這麽下去，第三次世界大戰不是不可能。中國傳統經常教育我們，追求和平，偏好戰爭將會帶來滅亡，美國是一個偏好戰爭的國家，俄羅斯也要吸取這個經驗，最好的方式，仍然是盡快停止這場戰爭。
RT：中國還有句老話說，最好的戰爭就是不戰而勝。顯然，中國試圖盡其所能駕馭與美國的關係，你寫道，至少現在，中國已經能夠避免陷入冷戰陷阱，你認為美國對中國還有威脅嗎?或者你認為迄今為止與俄羅斯的間接衝突會讓華盛頓忙上幾年嗎?
王文：我非常擔心這個問題。縱觀曆史，這次軍事行動本應可以避免的，如果不是北約不斷東擴，不是美國在挑動地區緊張，不是烏克蘭擠破頭想加入北約，但是，很顯然，曆史不能重演。現在悲劇已成，最好的彌補效果就是讓戰爭盡快停止，要有更多人道主義行動，拯救不應該死去的平民生命，減少不必要的損失。
RT：我很清楚中國人不喜歡把烏克蘭的情況與台灣問題相提並論，因為北京堅持一個中國政策，但你知道，拜登政府及曆屆美國政府，確實承諾給台北“支持”，鑒於美國安全部門對烏克蘭的態度。事實上，他們基本上是在最需要美國的時候被拋棄的，你認為美國這些承諾有價值嗎？
王文：現在在中國，有很多人認為，美國正在以烏克蘭方式想在台灣再挑動一場戰爭。一些美國安全部門認為，在歐洲，美國借烏克蘭平衡俄羅斯，削弱俄羅斯與歐洲，這是非常“聰明”的做法。在亞洲，美國同樣可以借台灣平衡中國大陸，並且通過戰爭的方式，削弱中國崛起，這種想法是危險的、自私的。
美國將像犧牲烏克蘭人生命那樣，再次犧牲台灣人的生命，把台灣視為美國遏製中國大陸崛起的代理人，這又是政治的悲劇，因此我們不得不考慮這個問題。
RT：說到烏克蘭，烏克蘭是世界上主要的農產品出口國之一。正如你最近所寫，超過14個國家25%以上依賴烏克蘭小麥進口，我相信俄羅斯在第三國麵前能清楚地意識到自己的責任，尤其是那些依賴烏克蘭出口的國家，現實地說，你認為現在俄羅斯有能力確保春播季節如期開始嗎?
而且它也應該如期開始，這樣才能最大限度地減輕世界其他地區的負擔，因為除了這場戰爭。我們還有許多季節性的幹旱、蝗災，和許多其他影響糧食生產的因素。
王文：實際上，許多中國人認為俄羅斯的特殊軍事行動，關切相關的人道主義責任，而不是一味的軍事進攻，這是俄羅斯軍事推進速度較慢的重要原因。俄羅斯此次軍事行動非常關心烏克蘭的普通民眾，你也提到了那些春播季節的因素。中國也提出人道主義六點倡議，提出對烏克蘭普通民眾的保護。現在，全世界都很擔心，戰爭與新冠疫情相疊加，有可能一場更糟糕的糧荒會能來，所以我們不得不考慮其他國家。
RT：至少就目前而言，華盛頓似乎認為，為了懲罰俄羅斯，任何手段都是正當的，這已經導致大宗商品價格急劇上漲，它迫使許多公司改變生產方式，你認為世界會接受這些變化嗎？你知道思想永遠是正確的，或者你認為這可能會激起其他國家的一些反抗嗎？迫使美國人理解這一點，強迫別人接受自己的決定是不對的，他們可以采取任何必要的行動來對付俄羅斯，但不可以迫使其他國家采取同樣的行動。
王文：其實，現在越來越多人認為。美國是最不講求人權、最自私的國家，美國最在乎的是，如何打敗對手，至於打敗對手時，產生對對象國的平民傷亡，或者第三國的傷害問題，美國並不在乎。在伊拉克和阿富汗，我們都深深感受到美國的殘酷性，正如我所說，製裁解決不了問題。
RT：王教授，我想你會同意這一點，我從世界各地很多朋友的來信中看到，他們都認為美國人的行為自私。但直到最近，很少有國家擁有任何外交，經濟甚至政治力量來抵製這種行為。你認為這種勢頭現在可能正在向更有成效的方向發展嗎？例如，我知道有很多關於中國和沙特阿拉伯的討論，一個美國的老牌盟友石油貿易轉向人民幣結算，你認為這種間接的舉動能否挑戰美國的霸權？這不是要挑戰美國的霸權，而是要讓世界變得更平衡、更安全，可以這麽說，不再依賴於一個國家的意誌。
王文：我認為這場衝突以後，會有一個非常重要的金融變化，那就是去美元化。美國把俄羅斯銀行排出SWIFT之外，實際上是把人類金融文明的共同財富視為對外的武器，這是不公正的、也是不正確的，每一個國家都會這麽想。過去我們信任美元，現在美國卻把美元當作武器，那我們以後需要再相信美元嗎？這些年來，越來越多國家拋棄美元，20年前，美元在國際貨幣體係當成儲備貨幣比例還有77%，現在降到了58%，以後還會更低。實際上，美國和美元霸權正在走向終結。
RT：我們正看到中國和其他國家的崛起，包括貨幣，其中有一個像哲學問題的點，我們經常聽到的一個表達和國際論述是，誰站在曆史正確的一邊誰站在曆史錯誤的一邊，我不得不說這是一個非常西方的表述，我甚至可以說這是一個非常基督教的概念，它把所有東西分成善惡兩種。隨著中國繼續自然崛起，你認為這會讓我們對善與惡有更複雜的理解嗎? 那麽不同對立麵之間的平衡是什麽呢?
王文：如果這場戰爭不是爆發在歐洲，可能沒有那麽多人關注，在非洲以及許多發展中國家，仍然有許多地區衝突，但很少有西方媒體報道，例如在阿富汗、伊拉克，美國仍留下許多戰爭的遺產與創傷，但是西方媒體沒有及時報道，現在，美國媒體仍然占據著國際話語權，“西方中心論”仍然是占主流的。這就是你剛才提到的“國際論述”，我們需要去追求更大的全球平等與國際民主化進程。
RT：好的，王教授，我們的節目就要結束了，非常感謝你今天的見解。
王文：謝謝。
RT：也感謝大家的收看，我們下期節目再見。
以下為英文版
RT：Hello, welcome to Worlds Apart.An old Chinese saying suggests that it's better to be a dog in times of tranquility than a human in times of change,a proposition that many of us may test out soon,as the world we knew just a few years ago rapidly disintegrates.What is likely to emerge in its place?We’ll discuss that,I'm now joined by Wang Wen, Executive Dean of Chongyang Institute for Financial Studies.Dr. Wen, it's great to talk to you, thank you very much for your time.
Wang wen：Thank you, thank you for having me now.
RT：Chinese scholars are not known for excessively dramatic assessments,but I know a lot of them, including yourself,warning about the danger of a major war,perhaps even a global war involving nuclear weapons.What made you reach such an ominous conclusion?
Wang wen：In my opinion, the conflict now is escalating.With the increase of military assistance from the United States and NATO to Ukraine,the conflict between Russia and Ukraine is no longer a regional war,but is escalating into Russia's military struggle against the whole western world,especially NATO.I believe in Russia's will of the war.If Western pressure continues to increase,Russia can only be forced to use nuclear weapons.This is what I am very worried about.I also hope to resume negotiations between Russia and Ukraine and end the conflict as soon as possible.Otherwise, I think mankind will face a more dangerous moment.
RT：Now, there’s been a lot of talk about so called Asia-Pacific pivot in the Biden’s administration and in the previous ones as well, They try to extricate themselves painfully and sometimes very clumsily, from the middle East, from Afghanistan,only to be embroiled in Europe.Do you think this conflict with Russia over Ukraine is deliberate or have they essentially stumbled into it?
Wang wen：In my opinion, Russia was forced to launch this special military operation.Because Ukraine has written its accession to NATO into its constitution.If Ukraine finally join NATO,it means that Russia's security interests are under unprecedented threat from the west.Russia's early start action is better than late start.This is a very important reason whymany Chinese sympathize with and support Russia.In the eyes of many Chinese, Russia has been threatened by the West for a long time and has to fight back. So, this is why many Chinese sympathize with and support Russia.
RT：And I know from your articles that many in China also sympathize very strongly with the people of Ukraine and their suffering. And I have to say that many Russians are too very, very greatly pained by that.But you once described Ukraine as having the body of a strong man and the fate of a servant girl,and gender insensitive or politically incorrect. It may sound to a westerner.I think it's hard to deny,given how poorly Ukraine has been able to benefit from both its strategic position and its natural resources.And I think to some extent it's very similar to Afghanistan.Because Afghanistan is centrally located within Eurasian continent. it has very rich resources, but all of that did it more harm than good.Whose fault is that both in the case of Ukraine and perhaps even in the case of Afghanistan?
Wang wen：When we study international relations theory, it is often said that "the tragedy of great powers".
In fact, there are a lot of tragedies in medium-sized countries or small-sized countries.For Ukraine, because the Ukraine has very good resources, that’s why I call Ukraine has a very strong body.But the problem is that if those countries, medium-sized or small-sized, cannot balance its relations with other big countries,it may become a dependency and victim of big countries.Ukraine's best strategic positioning should be to become a bridge between eastern and Western civilizations,but not a servant girl of the United States and NATO,nor a tool for the west to suppress the East or Russia.I think now Ukraine's positioning is very wrong,which makes it the biggest loser in this conflict.That’s why I’m very worried about Ukraine, because maybe in the future after the conflict, Ukraine may become the poorest and worst country in Europe.
RT：Now, you said before that you essentially believe that Russia was pushed into this military operation by NATO's continuing encroachment. Vladimir Putin, who authorized this operation.His last visit abroad was to China,and it was very interesting in my view, this visit. Because the Russian delegation flew in in the morning. They had a day full of meetings and they left in the evening. And there must have been something very, very important in those personal meetings to justify,you know, traveling such large distances for such a short period of time. Do you think the Chinese were informed of the Russian intentions to launch this operation?I know that there is no way of knowing it for sure. Perhaps only President Xi and President Putin know that. But what's your intuition on that?
Wang wen：Till now, we still very appreciate the President Putin's visit to Beijing at the opening ceremony of the Winter Olympic.Because this is a very important event for China.
RT：Putin just celebrations, right? I mean there were some important talks behind the scenes as well.
Wang wen：To be honestly, I ask the question to a lot of China officials,and I need an answer whether that time President Putin tell or share the secret information to China side.But now I very confirmed that China does not know the information that Russia would launch this special action this time.Because in fact, you know, very obvious evidence is that until the day before the outbreak of the conflict, the Chinese foreign ministry still did not ask the Chinese Embassy in Ukraine to quit.This has proved that China does not know the truth.That's why I said some Chinese people complained about this.why didn’t you share the information?But on the other hand,we understand because we believe that Russia is an independent country and has the right to do what it thinks is right.
RT：Now despite this ambiguity on whether or not China was informed about Russia's intentions, I think we would agree that even before this military operation, the relationship between Russia and China was growing closer. Over the last couple of a month,I think it became even tighter.And while the Chinese side is still trying to project a neutral line, you know, projecting that neutral line in and of itself is a sign of independence. It's not siding explicitly with the American hegemon. Do you think that is intentional?
Wang wen：I think actually China will not follow the United States to sanction Russia.In fact, 80% of the world's countries and population have not followed the west to sanction Russia.The West was isolated by the world in these sanctions against Russia. In China's view, sanctions cannot solve the problem, but will only harm the interests of ordinary people. China has always opposed American hegemony, but we support the international order since World War II. In China's view, the largest country that has undermined the international order established since World War II is the United States. The United States continues to withdraw from relevant treaties, provoke wars and become a global troublemaker.
RT：Dr. Wang, for now, the fighting is still contained to Ukraine,and we all hope that it will stay that way.Although the ripple effects from this confrontation are already felt around the world. What could possibly make the hostilities spread further and turn this military operation from a local or regional one into a global outbreak of violence?
Wang wen：Because I don't know whether you know Last week President Xi put forward a very interesting new term "global security initiative"，because this initiative, I think it's very important.It called for the concept of common, comprehensive, cooperative and sustainable security.I think China's global security initiative is valuable in the context of realistic power politics.So nowadays we Chinese want to push the international system to adhere to the UN Charter, abandon the Cold War mentality,oppose unilateralism, and refrain from group politics and camp confrontation.So, I think this is China's wisdom and suggestions.
RT：Now you mentioned President Xi, and he was also talking about humanity being placed on one ship and having to face crushing waves together. He said that throwing anyone overboard would present a major problem for everybody.But I think it's a beautiful, very Chinese metaphor. But do you think the Americans who are clearly intent on sinking Russia, I mean, they're not hiding it. They want to push Russia underwater. Do you think the Americans are likely to listen to perceive that view from China?
Wang wen：Well, we hope American can listen to and hear.Because in the Chinese concept of security, human beings are on the same ship.Now, mankind is facing a very dangerous moment.As in my article, viruses, inflation, climate change, food shortages and wars are happening at the same time.Now human being is in a very dangerous moment.Now, what needs to be done is to unite mankind,not just focus on the interests of their own country.In the whole universe, the earth is small;In the earth, any country is also small.Now, some countries, especially the United States,are too arrogant and often want to lead the world,but are not good at uniting others.If this continues,it will be punished by history.
RT：Okay, well, Professor. Wang, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments. Stay tuned.
RT：Welcome back to Worlds Apart with Wang Wen Executive Dean of Chongyang Institute for Financial Studies.Dr. Wang, you're a very serious scholar,but in one of your articles, speaking about this growing danger of a global war,you mentioned a curious or ominous numerical coincidence that the sum of every two digits of the starting dates of World War I (07/28/1914),World War II (09/01/1939) and the Russia-Ukraine conflict (02/24/2022) are the same,they all go down to number 5.And I know the traditional Chinese philosophy assigned a lot of significance to numerology,but I wonder if yourself see any meaning in this peculiar coincidence.
Wang wen：Thank you, thank you for reading my articles.Because actually my undergraduate major is history.I like to look for lessons in history that can be used for reference in the future.The coincidence of this number makes us more alert to the danger of this war.If this continues, the Third World War is not impossible.Chinese tradition often teaches us that pursuing peace and preferring war will bring destruction.The United States is a country that prefers war,and Russia should also learn from this experience.Now I suggest the best way is still to stop the war as soon as possible.
RT：Now, I'm thinking there's another Chinese saying that suggests that the best war is the war not fought.and obviously the Chinese tried to navigate their relationship with the United States the best they can.You wrote yourself that for now, at least, you have been able to avoid a falling into a cold war trap.Do you think that there's still a danger when it comes to the United States in China? Or do you think the indirect conflict with Russia so far will keep Washington busy for a couple of years?
Wang wen：I'm very worried about it.because if we look at the history,This military action could have been avoided,if the NATO did not continue to push the eastward expansion, or if the United States didn’t provoke regional tensions,or if Ukraine didn’t try to join NATO.However, it is clear that history cannot be repeated.Now that the tragedy has happened,the best remedy is to stop the war as soon as possible,have more humanitarian actions,save the lives of civilians who should not die and reduce unnecessary losses.
RT：I’m very aware that the Chinese don’t like the comparison of the Ukrainian situation to that of Taiwan because of Beijing’s insistence on one China policy, but you know that the Biden administration and the other administrations, too have promised their support for Taipei.In view of how Ukraine was treated by the Americans security p-wise, The fact that they have essentially been know abandoned in the time of great need.Do you think those promises of American support are worth anything?
Wang wen：Yeah, in China, a lot of people, they think that nowthe United States is trying to provoke another war in Taiwan in the way of Ukraine.Some US security departments believe that in Europe, the United States uses Ukraine to balance Russia and weaken Russia and Europe. This is a very smart way.In Asia, they think, US can also balance Chinese mainland with Taiwan and weaken China's rise through war. This idea is dangerous and selfish. The United States will sacrifice the lives of Taiwanese people again, just as it sacrificed the lives of Ukrainians.Taiwan is regarded as the agent of the US to contain the rise of the Chinese mainland.This is another political tragedy.So, we have to consider about it.
RT：Speaking about Ukraine，it's well known that Ukraine is one of the world's leading exporters of agricultural goods.And as you wrote recently，more than fourteen countries are more than 25% depend on Ukrainian wheat imports.I'm sure the Russians are keenly aware of their own responsibility before the third countries，especially those who are dependent on the Ukrainian exports.But do you think, realistically it is now within Russia's ability to ensure that the spring sowing season begins as it should? And that it continues as it should, so that to minimize the burden on the rest of the world.Because in addition to this war,we also have many seasons of droughts, locust invasions and many other factors that are affecting the production of food.
Wang wen：So actually, in a lot of Chinese people's views that Russia's special military operations are very concerned about relevant humanitarian responsibilities rather than blindly military attacks.This is an important reason for Russia's slow military promotion.Russia’s military operations are very concerned about Ukrainian ordinary people.As well as you are talking about those spring sowing season elements.China has also put forward a six-points humanitarian initiative to protect ordinary people in Ukraine.Now, the whole world is worried that the war is superimposing with COVID-19,and a worse grain shortage will be possible.So, we have to consider about the other countries.
RT：Washington, for now at least, seems to believe that,in penalizing Russia, any means justify the goal. It already led to steep increases in commodity prices. It forced many companies to alter production change. Do you think that the world is likely to take it as this? You know, the mind is always right. Or do you think it may provoke some counterreaction from other countries to force the Americans to understand that? It's not okay to force others to carry the burden of their decisions. They may take whatever actions they do necessarily against the Russians without forcing other countries to do the same.
Wang wen：Actually, more and more people, not only in China, but also in a lot of countries,believe that the most selfish country is the United States.What the United States cares about most is how to defeat its opponents.As for the problem of civilian casualties in the target country or injury to a third country when defeating the opponent,America doesn't care.For example, in Iraq and Afghanistan,we all deeply feel the cruelty of the United States.So, as I said, sanctions will not solve any problems.
RT：Dr. Wang, I think you would agree that many countries, I mean I heard from lots of my guests from around the world.They all believe that the Americans have demonstrated selfish behavior. But up until recently, very few countries had any diplomatic or economic or even political force to resist that behavior. Do you think that momentum may be building to something more productive right now? For example, I know there are lots of talks about China and Saudi Arabia. You know, an old American ally switching to yuan-denominated trade in oil.Do you think such indirect moves cannot even challenge the American hegemony?It's not about challenging the American hegemony but making the world a more balanced and more secure,so to say, and not to depend on the will of one country.
Wang wen：I think there will be a very important financial change after this conflict.That is de dollarization.By excluding Russian banks from SWIFT, the United States actually regards the common wealth of human financial civilization as an external weapon,which is very unfair and incorrect.Every country will think that.In the past, we trusted the dollar,but now the United States uses the dollar as a weapon.Do we need to trust dollars again?Over the years, more and more countries have abandoned the dollar.Twenty years ago, the proportion of the US dollar as a reserve currency in the international monetary system was still 77%,but now it has dropped to 58%.It will be lower and lower in the future.In fact, the hegemony of the US and US dollar is coming to an end.
RT：As we see the rising prominence of China and other countries, including and the currencies as well. And one of the it's sort of philosophical questions，that one of the expressions we hear a lot and the international discourse is who is on the right side of history and who is on the wrong side of history,which I have to say is a very western. I would even say a very Christian concept, you know, dividing everything in starkly good or bad terms. As China continues its natural rise to prominence,do you think it will introduce a more complex understanding of what is good, what is bad? And what's the balance between various opposites?
Wang wen：I think if the War didn't break out in Europe,there might not be so much attention.In Africa, in a lot of developing countries, there are still many regional conflicts,but few western media reported.For example, in Afghanistan and Iraq,the United States still left many war legacies and wounds,but the western media did not report in time.At present, the American media still occupy the international voice,and the "Western centrism" is still the mainstream.That’s you mentioned discourse.We need to pursue greater global equality and international democratization.
RT：Well, Dr. Wang, we have to leave it here.Thank you very much for your insights today.
Wang wen：Thank you, thank you so much.
RT：And thank you for watching.Hope to see you again on the Worlds Apart.
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