同意樓主的觀點,這也是美國南方政府拆掉李將軍(Gen. Robert E. Lee)等塑像的原因,南方政府對拆掉塑像做過解釋,和樓主說的一樣,而非某些華人所說的美國拆掉李將軍等塑像,是在搞“文化大革命”。
大讚好文!
祝樓主周末愉快!
不言有罪 發表評論於
回複 'sufficient' 的評論 : In Texas v. White, The Supreme Court CLEARLY ruled that the succession of Texas in 1861 was ILLEGAL. The Constitution regarding succession was the same in 1861 and 1869. I agree that there are people who argue that the Supreme Court ruling was wrong. That's their opinion. What I said was that the Supreme Court ruled it was illegal for south to unilaterally succeed. If you don't agree with the Supreme Court, please go and argue with them. Why is such a simple logic so difficult for you to understand?
不言有罪 發表評論於
回複 'sufficient' 的評論 : constitution is constitution, before and after war. supreme Court is only interpretjng the constitution.
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回複 '不言有罪' 的評論 :
A historical background that you should also know in regarding to state's right to succeed. During ratification of the constitution by the constituent states in 1788, New York, Virginia and Rhode Island refused to ratify the constitution unless they were allowed to reserve the right to succeed from the union. Compromises were reached so that constitution would not have provision for the nullification of the succession right. Since all states in the continental compact were presumed equal in legal status, it was therefore assumed by most, if not all, that the right to succeed from the Union by individual state was permitted by the constitution until the 1869 Texas ruling 4 year after the end of civil war. A side note, the 1869 ruling on succession right proved to be an embarrassing irony for US foreign policies when US is now persistently preaching to other countries of their local people's right for self determination while itself was against it domestically.
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回複 '不言有罪' 的評論 :
By the way, use your common sense, The principle that people should be free from retroactive law has its roots in another principle: that there is no crime or punishment except in accordance with law.
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回複 '不言有罪' 的評論 :
I guess you are unfamiliar with US legal system. I am not going to give you a lecture on the non retrospection of law. I just want to cite you this passage:
Legality:
The principle of legality is the legal ideal that requires all law to be clear, ascertainable and non-retrospective. It requires decision makers to resolve disputes by applying legal rules that have been declared beforehand, and not to alter the legal situation retrospectively by discretionary departures from established law.
No crime can be committed, nor punishment imposed without a pre-existing penal law, nulla poena sine lege. This principle is accepted as just and upheld by the penal codes of constitutional states, including virtually all modern democracies.
in conclusion, tt the time of the Civil War it was not illegal as the ruling by Supreme Court came later in 1869 (after the war) that unilateral secession was unconstitutional.
不言有罪 發表評論於
回複 'sufficient' 的評論 : Just one quote on this topic from the internet:
"I think there's been some confusion about the word "illegal". It commonly refers to an act that is punishable under criminal law, but the question regarding unilateral secession is whether it's authorized by the Constitution. We commonly refer to unconstitutional actions as "illegal"; perhaps that's insufficiently precise.
I'd say the real question here is whether unilateral secession is permitted by the Constitution. Given that question, the principal of nulla poena sine lege is irrelevant, since it's not a matter of a criminal law for which violators may be punished.
For example, there is no punishment specified for passing a law that restricts free speech, but any such law is invalid.
Texas V. White clearly expressed the Supreme Court's opinion that unilateral secession was illegal in 1861, when Texas attempted to secede. There is no ambiguity in the Court's ruling. There are valid arguments that the Court's ruling was incorrect, but any such arguments should start with an acknowledgement of what the ruling actually said."
不言有罪 發表評論於
回複 'sufficient' 的評論 : oh sure. All murderers must be tried before the murder, not afterwards.
sufficient 發表評論於
回複 '不言有罪' 的評論 :
you mean that court ruling in 1869? I hope that you do realize that in US law is not supposed to and cannot be retroactive. I fail to comprehend your reference to 1869 court ruling has any bearing on legality of events in civil war.
不言有罪 發表評論於
回複 'sufficient' 的評論 : Then what was the Texas vs White ruling about?
sufficient 發表評論於
"ust tell me, was the succession ruled to be legal or illegal by the Supreme Court.?"
It had never been a supreme court ruling on the constitutionality of state right for succession. However, the initial US constitution implied state's right to succeed. If the supreme court were to rule prior to civil war, it would most likely rule in favor of succession right.
"If you want to discuss state rights vs constitution"
your question is oxymoron. State's right is a important part of the constitution of the United States.
不言有罪 發表評論於
回複 'sufficient' 的評論 : where is the ruling you mentioned by the Supreme Court?
不言有罪 發表評論於
回複 'sufficient' 的評論 : just tell me, was the succession ruled to be legal or illegal by the Supreme Court.? A very simple question. No need for you to teach others to go to library as I don't use libraries. If you want to discuss state rights vs constitution, then go ahead and write an article on it.
sufficient 發表評論於
不言有罪 發表評論於 2017-08-18 21:28:10
"I just said that the succession by south was ruled by Supreme Court to be illegal. Wasn't this true? What's wrong with this statement?"
When did supreme court ever rule that succession by the southern states was unconstitutional? On the contrary, according to the US constitution of 1861, the state's right to succeed from union was constitutional.
不言有罪 發表評論於
回複 'sufficient' 的評論 : believe me, I am also frustrated with trying to understand what you want to say. It seems that you are saying Lincoln waged the war unconstitutionally. But did I ever talk about Lincoln in my article? I just said that the succession by south was ruled by Supreme Court to be illegal. Wasn't this true? What's wrong with this statement?
sufficient 發表評論於
不言有罪 發表評論於 2017-08-18 20:09:35
Huh? How did I make your point? It seems that you have completely failed to comprehend my point. We are talking in complete different wavelength here. I suggest you o take a trip to the library to learn a little on the history of American constitution and state's right.
不言有罪 發表評論於
回複 'sufficient' 的評論 : You just stated my point: If the Supreme Court of USA ruled that according to the Constitution, the succession was illegal, then it was and is illegal. Period. Was there a prior ruling before the war from Supreme Court that the succession was legal?
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不言有罪 發表評論於 2017-08-18 18:47:10
回複 'sufficient' 的評論 : so the Supreme Court was wrong?
It is funny that you see things this way. Too put it short, constitutionally, supreme court has the final word on interpretation of law, therefore its ruling cannot be wrong legally. Of course, you can slap a moral, social or political judgement on its rulings. In those sense, you can say that it was wrong or right. Would you say that Lincoln, who waged war against the south unconstitutionally, was wrong? Constitutionally, he might be, But, with consideration of national interest of the united States, he was right.
不言有罪 發表評論於
回複 'Sam大樹' 的評論 : 去之前,不要吝嗇多用些漂白粉,至少戴四個小紅帽,也許管用。
Sam大樹 發表評論於
華人以為3K黨是朋友的,去參加人家活動看看,然後再說愛不愛。
不言有罪 發表評論於
回複 'sufficient' 的評論 : so the Supreme Court was wrong?
不言有罪 發表評論於 2017-08-18 14:01:03
回複 'sufficient' 的評論 : Yes, Sir or Madam. Judgement is always issued afterwards, isn't it?
I guess you miss the point. you had stated that "這脫離,美國最高法院的判定是,違法的。", implying that succession was unconstitutional at the time of civil war. That is not historically correct statement. Supreme court had never ruled on the constitutionality of the succession at the time of the civil war. If it were to rule, it would most likely rule in favor of the state's right to succeed from the Union. Lincolin's war on the succeeding states was in legal sense unconstitutional. With that said, it does not mean that Lincoln was not doing the right thing as a president for his perceived country, the Union. Most legal scholars today agree that from legal perspective the constitution of United States at the time of civil war implied state's right to succeed from the union. Even today, there is no clause in the constitution explicitly prohibiting state's right to to succeed from the Union. However, the subsequent amendments particularly those rectified during the Construction implies or, I should say, preempts state's right for succession. With the war to save the Union, this implication is blatantly obvious.
回複 'sufficient' 的評論 : In Texas v. White (1869), the Court held in a 5–3 decision that Texas had remained a state of the United States ever since it first joined the Union, despite its joining the Confederate States of America and its being under military rule at the time of the decision in the case. It further held that the Constitution did not permit states to secede from the United States, and that the ordinances of secession, and all the acts of the legislatures within seceding states intended to give effect to such ordinances, were "absolutely null." However, this decision did allow some possibility of divisibility "through revolution, or through consent of the States."
I have had some trouble with some of the people. Reuben, Parks & Edward, in
the beginning of the previous week, rebelled against my authority—refused
to obey my orders, & said they were as free as I was, etc., etc.—I
succeeded in capturing them & lodging them in jail. They resisted till
overpowered & called upon the other people to rescue them.
有幾個人給我帶來了麻煩。魯本、帕克斯和愛德華,他們在上周剛開始時反抗了我的權
威——拒絕服從我的命令,並稱他們與我一樣自由等等,等等。我成功抓住了他們並投
進監獄。他們直到被製服一直在反抗,還呼籲其他人來救他們。
In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge,
that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country.
It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it however a
greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings
are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong
for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa,
morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing,
is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead
them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known
& ordered by a wise Merciful Providence.
I have always observed that wherever you find the neg**, everything is going
down around him, and wherever you find the white man, you see everything
around him improving. 根據我一向觀察,哪裏有黑人,哪裏就更糟,哪裏有白人,哪
裏就在進步。
You will never prosper with blacks, and it is abhorrent to a reflecting mind
to be supporting and cherishing those who are plotting and working for your
injury, and all of whose sympathies and associations are antagonistic to
yours. I wish them no evil in the world—on the contrary, will do them every
good in my power, and know that they are misled by those to whom they have
given their confidence; but our material, social, and political interests
are naturally with the whites.
你永遠不能與黑人共榮,而支持和珍愛這些正在密謀損害你,並且同情心與思想都與你
敵對的人的做法,是令人憎惡的。我並不希望他們不幸,相反,我會盡我所能地去善待
他們,並理解他們被他們所相信的人誤導了;但我們的物質、社會以及政治利益將永遠
與白人同在。
任華盛頓學院(華盛頓與李大學的前身,不是現在的華盛頓大學)校長期間,學生們在
校內組織了KKK分部,並且試圖綁架強奸當地黑人女學生。這些學生至少兩次試圖對黑
人處以私刑,李將軍似乎對此並沒有什麽特別的反應。有意思的是,當學生們想要額外
的聖誕節假期時,李將軍倒是對他們嚴懲。
The neg**es have neither the intelligence nor the other qualifications which
are necessary to make them safe depositories of political power.
黑人們既沒有足夠的智力,也沒有足夠的其他品質來擔當政治權力的載體。
1870年,李將軍逝世,此時KKK剛剛成立四年。整個南方,民主黨和前邦聯分子正在掀
起一波又一波針對黑人的暴力行動。而整個國家正在試圖盡快擺脫內戰的陰霾,南北試
圖和解,白人們開始對敢於拚搏的李將軍充滿了崇敬之情。李將軍去世後,他曾經的手
下具伯·爾利甚至對他如此評價:
Our beloved Chief stands, like some lofty column which rears its head among
the highest, in grandeur, simple, pure and sublime.
我們受人敬愛的首領如同巍峨的圓柱一般屹立,在最崇高的偉人中揚頭,宏偉莊嚴,簡
約、純粹而崇高。
“But what is to be gained by putting this statue of Lee on Gettysburg
battlefield? If you want historical accuracy as your excuse, then place upon
this field a statue of Lee holding in his hand the banner under which he
fought, bearing the legend: ‘We wage this war against a government
conceived in liberty and dedicated to humanity.’”
在葛底斯堡戰場上安置李將軍像有什麽好處?如果你想要用“曆史準確性”作為借口,
那就在這戰場上擺上一尊手持條幅的李將軍像,上麵寫著:“我們向在自由中誕生,致
力於人類的這個政府宣戰。”
one correction. According to the constitution of the United States at the time of civil war, southern states did have right to succeed from the Union. Lincoln's war to preserve the Union was indeed unconstitutional from legal perspective. This is not to argue on whether he should do it or not. In fact, there were serious disagreements between Lincoln and the then-Chief Justice Roger Taney in regarding to the war for the suppression of the rebellion. Taney deemed Lincoln's granting suspension of Habeas corpus by military personnel in the civil war unconstitutional. Lincoln at point even contemplated to arrest the chief Justice.
大多數華裔川粉既缺乏了解,又不喜歡思考。 我經常被問到: “Can you please advise me why you Chinese support Trump?” 或者 “你們大陸人怎麽會挺川普?” 每次被問到,我都感到既尷尬又痛苦,覺得很丟臉, 因為在美國,來自全世界各國的少數族裔都整體上反Trump,隻因他明顯的種族主義心態。唯獨來自中國大陸的移民,有一半是川粉。