Vijay Prashad China will not enter another century of humiliatio

China “will not enter another century of humiliation”: Vijay Prashad

Can BRICS countries challenge the US? Redi Tlhabi speaks with historian and journalist Vijay Prashad.

Amid escalating global instability and a fractured Western alliance, nations in the Global South are reassessing their geopolitical alignments and economic strategies. The BRICS bloc, which includes Russia, Brazil, India, China, South Africa and other emerging economies, has emerged as a counterweight to the US-dominated financial order.

So, can BRICS countries fulfil its potential as a significant force in a multipolar world? This week on UpFront, Redi Tlhabi speaks with historian and journalist Vijay Prashad.

China “will not enter another century of humiliation”: Vijay Prashad | UpFront

Al Jazeera English  2025年4月18日

Amid escalating global instability and a fractured Western alliance, nations in the Global South are reassessing their geopolitical alignments and economic strategies. The BRICS bloc, which includes Russia, Brazil, India, China, South Africa and other emerging economies, has emerged as a counterweight to the US-dominated financial order.

So, can BRICS countries fulfil its potential as a significant force in a multipolar world?

This week on UpFront, Redi Tlhabi speaks with historian and journalist Vijay Prashad.
<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>

Host 

Vijay Prashad welcome to Upfront Thanks a lot It's great to be with you
Let's talk about the BRICS countries a coalition made up of Brazil Russia India
China and South Africa And now lately expanded with new members joining Egypt Ethiopia Iran the UAE and uh recently Indonesia You know different countries have different reasons for wanting to be a part of the bricks but the fundamental reason is to create a counter response a counter measure to western dominance and also uh to create other alternatives to the international monetary fund and the world bank What's your verdict Have they achieved that mission 

Vijay Prashad

Well the first thing to remember is that the bricks project is actually quite modest It's not uh to change the world That that was never the project You you have to understand that in 2007 when the financial crisis took place with the subprime mortgages exploding in the United States it looked to many countries big countries like Brazil India China South Africa had looked to them that the western markets that they had come to rely upon the United States in particular but also European markets were not going to forever be able to absorb the goods and services produced in these large locomotives of the south And for that reason these countries began to turn to each other to think of a kind of south south trading world It has since developed further and has perhaps taken on a slight political air where these countries have begun to think about um organizing institutions outside western control But principally if we just take the first objective which was to increase trade across the global south that has indeed taken place and and taken place pretty successfully 

Host

So in recent years a growing number of countries have been making moves to dd dollararize that is to decrease their dependency on the US dollar BRICS countries such as Russia and uh India have also increased their transactions settling their transactions in their local currencies trading rupees for rubles Now given the instability that is being caused by Donald Trump's tariffs are we likely to see more countries in the bricks in the global south taking similar moves of exploring the possibility of trading in different currencies other than the dollar 

Vijay Prashad

Well some of this trade has been taking place in what are known as local currencies In other words they are trading uh goods and services in their own currencies That's been happening since 2007208 Secondly the United States for political reasons has been sanctioning more and more countries It has increased sanctions over this past decade 900% Uh enormous increase of sanctions That's the second way in which a decoupling has been happening Okay Then the third issue is the US government has been putting increasing pressure on China through its tariffs policy sanctions policy and so on China therefore has also pivoted away from the US market seeing that sections of um its important exports for instance in telecommunications not being allowed into Europe not being allowed into the United States So China has also pivoted away from US controlled institutions As you see Russia China sanctioned countries pivot away Countries like India which rely on western markets for the export of services begin to look for other places English-speaking countries where they can export their services You're beginning to see another world already born You don't need to actually build this world politically It's already being built largely It's a kind of owned goal by the United States Trump may be angry about ddollarization Well he should be He should be angry about it But a large part of ddollarization is not happening politically by countries like India and so on It's happening because the US continues to use the dollar as a political instrument and is sending countries off searching for other ways to trade with each other In that sense the United States is actually the great driver of ddollarization not the BRICS countries

Host

And yet sometimes you see some insights into this from the United States itself In 2023 the current Secretary of State Marco Rubio even admitted "We won't have to talk about sanctions in 5 years because there will be so many countries transacting in currencies other than the dollar that we won't have the ability to sanction them." How much leverage does Washington uh stand to lose here 

Vijay Prashad

Well by the way that's one of my favorite um television interviews where Marco Rubio then a senator effectively says that this is horrible and and the United States by um sanctioning countries is losing the power to sanction them I think it's a very interesting statement that he makes and it's quite correct He makes my point actually better than than I'm making my point He he makes it bluntly directly and from a position of power But I don't want to exaggerate this because the United States remains one of the major countries in the world It has the largest military force um under NATO It is able to dominate most of the world and it is the only country right now that is willing to forgo capital controls open its assets within its own territory for buying and selling and therefore being able to have a global currency No other currency is right now prepared no other country is prepared to open up their currency to become essentially global fiat money The Chinese are not willing to let go of capital controls open up their financial markets The Russians can't do it They are sanctioned by too many people in the west in particular The euro is not strong enough I mean no country really has the ability to take over from the dollar It is going to remain in a position of dominance until we come up with a new strategy you know perhaps some sort of bricks currency or a or a or a United Nations currency some kind of But we are a long way off from there are we not We are a long way off from there But you've already told us that the world is realigning and that the US is actually through these actions these aggressive actions forcing this realignment But let's just zone in on China for a moment It has become one of the world's leading creditors surpassing
the World Bank and the IMF But then it has also been criticized for offering
debt diplomacy What others are calling debt traps The debt that developing
countries owe to China is running into
like 1.1 trillion US dollars So China's
actions themselves are they pure or are
they continuing those patterns of dominance and imperialism that impoverish poorer nations Well it's interesting because this is a problem in
our countries You know when we go to any
financial institution whether it's the
International Monetary Fund or it's the
People's Bank of China our capacity has
to improve to negotiate for better deals
We have to come there with better
development projects I mean look at the
case of of countries like the Democratic
Republic of Congo and Zambia Um these
two countries can be right now making an
African electric car Africa does not
need to import cars from anywhere It has
all the raw materials and most of the
expertise to make an African car Why
isn't that car being made right now It's
because our governments are simply not
putting uh their heads together coming
up with good agreements making deals
with countries and demanding a
technology transfer to make the African
car or the Latin American aircraft Why
should a Latin American airline buy
aircraft from Boeing and Airbus Why not
create our own um you know aircraft
These are things we can do This is our
problem This is not something we need to
lay the blame at the People's Bank of
China or even Kenya But but Kenya let's
just pause for a moment I mean we saw
those protests in Kenya people taking to
the streets as uh R tried uh to raise uh
uh revenue by increasing taxes One of
the problems there was not just the
state of living It was the previous
loans that were afforded to Kenya by
China And that's why Kenya started
saying "Okay fine We're no longer
looking east or west we're looking ahead
They had to go back to the IMF and find
a dual model of financing this The the
rail network that Kenya built was costly
and it was built by Chinese money So
there are elements of truth in that Well
but first we have to think about are we
controlling our own raw materials I mean
look at you you gave the example of
Kenya Kenya is principally an exporter
of tea coffee and cut flowers Who owns
the cut flour industry in Kenya Who owns
the land in the Kenyan highlands where
the tea and coffee is grown Let's talk
about the fact that when Joo Kenyata
comes to power in Kenya they do not
expropriate the colonial landholders the
planters of the highlands It's still
multinational corporations that dominate
the tea and coffee of Kenya Why is Kenya
giving up its wealth to multinational corporations and then looking for loans
to build a railway Kenya should be selling its cut flowers its tea and coffee processed uh into the world market earning enough revenue and then building its trains Why do we need to be in debt We are in debt because we don't control our resources And in the case of Kenya as you explained the land question should be foremost on people's minds Why are they out protesting um the increase of of of of fees on them They should be out protesting how the land is still held colonially Okay let's go back to this geopolitical tension between China and the United States Trump has placed is it now 145% uh tariff on imports from China and who knows what it will be when we wake up tomorrow morning Given this do you think Trump's tariffs against China are a part of a larger political mission or agenda or just a trade war a trade tension It's very interesting because for the first time in about 50 years the United States has genuinely changed its foreign policy orientation Until now from the 1990s at least the United States has had an idealist foreign policy the belief that you can just bomb a country and democracy will sprout up This is what they attempted in Iraq Bomb Iraq and on the the bombing fields you'll have a Jeffersonian democracy Now the Trump administration has returned the United States to a more realistic foreign policy a right-wing realism uh you can call it They understand that China is a threat to the United States but not a military threat It's an existential threat to the US tech companies Chinese
technology firms whether it's Huawei or BYD which makes electric cars are far
better and more efficient and able to produce products cheaper for the world market than US firms Um Huawei phones are a lot better than Apple phones BYD cars a lot better than Tesla This is a serious challenge to American capitalism And rather than deal with this in a way that capitalists should which is invest to make better cars make them more efficiently the United States is using tariffs to put pressure on China and then using its military to intimidate China It's not going to work China has said they will not enter another century of humiliation None of the countries of the global south are ready to be humiliated again Trump is trying something I just don't think it's going to work VJ Prashad a pleasure talking to you on Upfront Thank you for joining us Thanks a lot It's great to be with you

中國“不會再經曆百年屈辱”：維賈伊·普拉沙德

金磚國家能否挑戰美國？雷迪·特拉比采訪曆史學家兼記者維賈伊·普拉沙德。

在全球動蕩加劇、西方聯盟破裂的背景下，全球南方國家正在重新評估其地緣政治格局和經濟戰略。金磚國家集團由俄羅斯、巴西、印度、中國、南非和其他新興經濟體組成，已成為美國主導的金融秩序的製衡力量。

那麽，金磚國家能否充分發揮其在多極世界中成為一支重要力量的潛力？本周，雷迪·特拉比在《UpFront》節目中采訪了曆史學家兼記者維賈伊·普拉沙德。

中國“不會再經曆百年屈辱”：維賈伊·普拉沙德 | UpFront

半島電視台英語頻道 2025年4月18日

在全球動蕩加劇、西方聯盟破裂的背景下，全球南方國家正在重新評估其地緣政治格局和經濟戰略。金磚國家集團由俄羅斯、巴西、印度、中國、南非和其他新興經濟體組成，已成為美國主導的金融秩序的製衡力量。

那麽，金磚國家能否在多極世界中發揮其重要力量的潛力？

本周，在UpFront節目中，雷迪·特拉比與曆史學家兼記者維賈伊·普拉沙德進行了訪談。
<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>

主持人

Vijay Prashad，歡迎來到 Upfront！非常感謝！很高興和您在一起。我們來談談金磚國家聯盟吧。這個聯盟由巴西、俄羅斯、印度、中國和南非組成。最近，埃及、埃塞俄比亞、伊朗、阿聯酋以及最近的印度尼西亞等新成員也加入了進來。您知道，不同的國家
想要加入金磚國家聯盟的理由各不相同，但根本原因在於
為了應對西方的主導地位，
並
為了創造國際貨幣基金組織和世界銀行以外的替代方案。您如何評價？他們實現了這個使命嗎？

Vijay Prashad

首先要記住的是，金磚國家計劃的規模其實很小。它並非旨在改變世界。這從來都不是金磚國家計劃。您必須明白，2007年金融危機爆發，美國次貸危機爆發，許多國家都認為像巴西、印度、中國和南非這樣的大國，認為它們所依賴的西方市場，尤其是美國和歐洲市場，不可能永遠吸收這些“南方”大型經濟體生產的商品和服務。因此，這些國家開始相互合作，構想一種“南南貿易世界”。這種模式自此進一步發展，或許還略帶政治色彩，這些國家開始考慮在西方控製之外組織機構。但主要來說，如果我們隻考慮第一個目標，即增加全球南方國家的貿易，這確實已經實現，而且相當成功。

主持人

近年來，越來越多的國家開始采取行動，實現美元化，也就是減少對美元的依賴。俄羅斯和印度等金磚國家也增加了以本國貨幣結算的交易，用盧比兌換盧布。鑒於唐納德·特朗普的關稅政策造成的不穩定，我們是否會看到更多“南南”國家采取類似的舉措，探索新的貿易模式？使用美元以外的其他貨幣進行交易的可能性

Vijay Prashad

其中一些交易是以所謂的本幣進行的。換句話說，他們用自己的貨幣交易商品和服務。這種情況自2007年以來一直存在。其次，出於政治原因，美國一直在製裁越來越多的國家。過去十年，美國加大了製裁力度，製裁力度增加了900%。這是脫鉤發生的第二種方式。好的，第三個問題是，美國政府一直在通過關稅政策、製裁政策等對中國施加越來越大的壓力。因此，中國也已經遠離了美國市場。例如，其重要的出口產品，例如電信產品，不允許進入歐洲，也不允許進入美國。因此，中國也已經遠離了美國控製的機構。正如你所看到的，俄羅斯和中國等受製裁國家正在轉向其他國家。像印度這樣依賴西方市場出口服務的國家，開始尋找其他可以出口服務的英語國家。你開始看到另一個世界已經誕生。你不需要真正從政治角度來建設這個世界，它在很大程度上已經在建設中，這是美國擁有的一種目標，特朗普可能對美元化感到憤怒，他應該感到憤怒

關於這一點，但很大一部分美元化並非由印度等國家出於政治目的而發生。這是因為美國繼續將美元作為政治工具，並迫使各國尋找其他貿易方式。從這個意義上講，美國才是美元化的主要推動者，而不是金磚國家。

主持人

然而，有時你會看到美國自身對此有一些見解。2023年，現任國務卿馬可·盧比奧甚至承認：“五年後我們將不再需要談論製裁，因為將有如此多的國家使用美元以外的貨幣進行交易，我們將無力對它們進行製裁。”華盛頓會失去多少籌碼？

維賈伊·普拉沙德

順便說一下，這是我最喜歡的電視采訪之一，馬爾科·盧比奧, 然後一位參議員實際上說這很糟糕，美國通過製裁其他國家正在失去製裁它們的權力。我認為他的言論很有意思，而且非常正確。他表達我的觀點比我表達得更好。他直截了當地站在強勢立場上表達。但我不想誇大其詞，因為美國仍然是世界上的主要國家之一。它在北約的領導下擁有最強大的軍事力量。它能夠主宰世界大部分地區，而且它是目前唯一一個願意放棄資本管製，開放其境內資產進行買賣的國家，因此能夠擁有一種全球貨幣。目前沒有其他貨幣願意開放其貨幣，使其成為全球法定貨幣。中國不願意放棄資本管製，開放其金融體係。市場 俄羅斯人做不到 尤其受到西方太多人的製裁 歐元不夠強勢 我的意思是，沒有哪個國家真正有能力取代美元 它會一直保持主導地位，直到我們想出新的戰略，也許是某種實體貨幣，或者某種 或者某種聯合國貨幣 但我們離那個目標還很遠，不是嗎 我們離那個目標還很遠 但你已經告訴我們，世界正在重新調整，而美國實際上正在通過這些行動，這些激進的行動來推動這種重新調整 但讓我們暫時把注意力集中在中國身上 它已經成為世界主要債權國之一，超過了世界銀行和國際貨幣基金組織 但隨後，它也因提供債務外交而受到批評 其他人稱之為債務陷阱 發展中國家欠中國的債務已達到1.1萬億美元 那麽，中國的行動本身是純粹的，還是 在延續其主導模式以及使貧窮國家陷入貧困的帝國主義。這很有趣，因為這是我們國家麵臨的一個問題。你知道，當我們去任何金融機構，無論是國際貨幣基金組織還是中國人民銀行，我們都必須提高談判能力，爭取更好的交易。我們必須帶著更好的發展項目去那裏。我的意思是，看看剛果民主共和國和讚比亞等國家的例子。這兩個國家現在就可以製造非洲電動汽車。非洲不需要從任何地方進口汽車。它擁有製造非洲汽車所需的所有原材料和大部分專業知識。為什麽現在沒有製造這種汽車？是因為我們的政府根本沒有齊心協力，沒有與各國達成良好的協議，也沒有要求轉讓技術來製造非洲汽車或拉丁美洲飛機。為什麽拉丁美洲航空公司應該從波音和空客購買飛機？為什麽不自己製造呢？飛機 這些都是我們可以做的
這是我們的問題
我們不需要把責任歸咎於中國人民銀行，甚至肯尼亞。但是，讓我們先暫停一下，肯尼亞，我的意思是，我們看到了
肯尼亞的抗議活動，人們走上街頭，因為呃，R 試圖通過增加稅收來增加呃，呃，收入。那裏的問題之一
不僅僅是生活狀況，還有之前中國提供給肯尼亞的
貸款。這就是為什麽肯尼亞開始說：“好吧，我們不再
東顧西顧，我們要向前看。他們不得不回到國際貨幣基金組織，尋找
一個雙重融資模式。肯尼亞建造的鐵路網成本高昂，
而且是由中國出資建造的。所以，
這話有一定道理。好吧，
但首先我們必須考慮，我們是否
控製著自己的原材料。我的意思是，
看看你舉的肯尼亞的例子。肯尼亞主要出口茶葉、咖啡和鮮花。誰擁有
肯尼亞的麵粉加工產業
誰擁有
肯尼亞高地種植茶葉和咖啡的土地
讓我們來談談
當朱·肯雅塔
在肯尼亞掌權時他們沒有
剝奪殖民地土地所有者，也沒有
高地種植園主。跨國公司仍然主宰著
肯尼亞的茶葉和咖啡。為什麽肯尼亞
要把財富拱手讓給跨國公司，然後又尋求貸款
來修建鐵路？肯尼亞應該把鮮花、加工過的茶葉和咖啡賣到世界市場，賺取足夠的收入，然後再建造火車。我們為什麽需要負債？我們負債是因為我們沒有控製自己的資源。就肯尼亞而言，正如你所解釋的，土地問題應該是人們最關心的問題。為什麽他們要抗議增加土地使用費？他們應該抗議土地仍然被殖民者占有。好吧，讓我們回到中美之間的地緣政治緊張局勢。特朗普現在對從中國進口的產品征收了145%的關稅，誰知道明天早上我們醒來時會是多少呢？鑒於此，你認為特朗普對中國征收的關稅是更大政治使命或議程的一部分，還是僅僅是貿易戰？戰爭、貿易緊張局勢。這很有意思，因為大約50年來，美國首次真正改變了其外交政策取向。至少從20世紀90年代至今，美國一直奉行理想主義的外交政策，相信隻要轟炸一個國家，民主就會萌芽。他們在伊拉克就是這麽做的。轟炸伊拉克，在轟炸場上，你會看到
傑斐遜式的民主。現在，特朗普政府讓美國回歸了
更現實的外交政策，你可以稱之為右翼現實主義。他們明白，中國對美國構成威脅，但不是
軍事威脅。這對美國科技公司構成了生存威脅。中國的科技公司，無論是華為還是生產電動汽車的比亞迪，都比美國公司
更優秀、更高效，能夠為全球市場生產更便宜的產品。嗯，華為手機比蘋果手機好得多。比亞迪汽車比特斯拉好得多。這對美國資本主義是一個嚴峻的挑戰。與其用資本家應該用的方式來應對這個問題，也就是投資製造更好的汽車。讓他們更高效地
美國正在利用關稅向中國施壓，
然後又用軍事手段恐嚇中國。這行不通。中國已經
表示，他們不會再經曆一個世紀的屈辱。全球南方國家都沒有準備好再次被羞辱。特朗普正在嚐試一些我認為不會奏效的事情。VJ Prashad，很高興在 Upfront 節目中與您交談。感謝您加入我們。非常感謝。很高興與您交談。