正文
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/09/satan-vs-god-past-and-future-killings.html
Satan vs God: past and future killings
In previous posts, I\'ve tried to total the number of people killed by God and Satan in the Bible, as well as provide some estimates of their future plans in that regard. Here\'s a table that summarizes the results. (Follow the links in the table for the details.)
God Killed:
Total number killed (not including un-numbered killings) 2,270,365+
Satan Killed:
Total killings (estimated) 10
God Planned future killings 3,300,000,000
Satan Planned future killings 0
*******************************************
How many has God killed?
I kill ... I wound ... I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh. -- Deuteronomy 32:39-42
How many people did God kill in the Bible?
It\'s impossible to say for sure, but plently. How many did God drown in the flood or burn to death in Sodom and Gomorrah? How many first-born Egyptians did he kill? There\'s just no way to count them all.
But sometimes the Bible tells us exactly how many were killed by God. Here\'s a list of those that I can find. (If you find any that I\'ve missed, let me know and I\'ll add them to the list.)
So far I come up with a total of 2,270,365 (not inlcuding, at least in some cases, women and children). SAB, Brick Testament Number Killed Cummulative Total
Lot\'s wife for looking back Gen.19:26, BT 1 1
Er who was wicked in the sight of the Lord Gen.38:7, BT 1 2
Onan for spilling his seed Gen.38:10, BT 1 3
For dancing naked around Aaron\'s golden calf Ex.32:27-28, 35, BT 3000 3003
Aaron\'s sons for offering strange fire before the Lord Lev.10:1-3, Num.3:4, 26:61, BT 2 3005
A blasphemer Lev.24:10-23, BT 1 3006
A man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath Num.15:32-36, BT 1 3007
Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families) Num.16:27, BT 12+ 3019+
Burned to death for offering incense Num.16:35, 26:10, BT 250 3269+
For complaining Num.16:49, BT 14,700 17,969+
For committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab Num.25:9, BT 24,000 41,969+
Midianite massacre (32,000 virgins were kept alive) Num.31:1-35, BT 90,000+ 131,969+
God tells Joshua to stoned to death Achan (and his family) for taking the accursed thing. Joshua 7:10-12, 24-26, BT 5+ 131,974+
God tells Joshua to attack Ai and do what he did to Jericho (kill everyone). Joshua 8:1-25, BT 12,000 143,974+
Joshua kills 5 kings and hangs their dead bodies on trees Joshua 10:24-26, BT 5 143,979+
God delivered Canaanites and Perizzites Judges 1:4, BT 10,000 153,979+
Ehud delivers a message from God: a knife into the king\'s belly Jg.3:15-22, BT 1 153,980+
God delivered Moabites Jg.3:28-29, BT 10,000 163,980+
God forces Midianite soldiers to kill each other. Jg.7:2-22, 8:10, BT 120,000 283,980+
The Spirit of the Lord comes on Samson Jg.14:19, BT 30 284,010+
The Spirit of the Lord comes mightily on Samson Jg.15:14-15, BT 1000 285,010+
Samson\'s God-assisted act of terrorism Jg.16:27-30, BT 3000 288,010+
The Lord smote Benjamin Jg.20:35-37, BT 25,100 313,110+
More Benjamites Jg.20:44-46 25,000 338,110+
For looking into the ark of the Lord 1 Sam.6:19 50,070 388,180+
God delivered Philistines 1 Sam.14:12 20 388,200+
Samuel (at God\'s command) hacks Agag to death 1 Sam.15:32-33 1 388,201+
The Lord smote Nabal. 1 Sam.25:38 1 388,202+
Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling 2 Sam.6:6-7, 1 Chr.13:9-10 1 388,203+
David and Bathsheba\'s baby boy 2 Sam.12:14-18 1 388,204+
Seven sons of Saul hung up before the Lord 2 Sam.21:6-9 7 388,211+
From plague as punishment for David\'s census (men only; probably 200,000 if including women and children) 2 Sam.24:13, 1 Chr.21:7 70,000+ 458,211+
A prophet for believing another prophet\'s lie 1 Kg.13:1-24 1 458,212+
God delivers the Syrians into the Israelites\' hands 1 Kg.20:28-29 100,000 558,212+
God makes a wall fall on Syrian soldiers 1 Kg.20:30 27,000 585,212+
God sent a lion to eat a man for not killing a prophet 1 Kg.20:35-36 1 585,213+
Ahaziah is killed for talking to the wrong god. 2 Kg.1:2-4, 17, 2 Chr.22:7-9 1 585,214+
Burned to death by God 2 Kg.1:9-12 102 585,316+
God sends two bears to kill children for making fun of Elisha\'s bald head 2 Kg.2:23-24 42 585,348+
Trampled to death for disbelieving Elijah 2 Kg.7:17-20 1 585,349+
Jezebel 2 Kg.9:33-37 1 585,360+
God sent lions to kill some foreigners 2 Kg.17:25-26 3+ 585,363+
Sleeping Assyrian soldiers 2 Kg.19:35, 2 Chr.32:21, Is.37:36 185,000 770,363+
Saul 1 Chr.10:14 1 770,364+
God delivers Israel into the hands of Judah 2 Chr.13:15-17 500,000 1,270,364+
Jeroboam 2 Chr.13:20 1 1,270,365+
The Lord smote the Ethiopians. 2 Chr.14:9-14 1,000,000 2,270,365+
God kills Jehoram by making his bowels fall out 2 Chr.21:14-19 1 2,270,366+
Ezekiel\'s wife Ezek.24:15-18 1 2,270,367+
Ananias and Sapphira Acts 5:1-10 2 2,270,369+
Herod Acts 12:23, BT 1 2,270,369+
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/02/2006
Labels: Bible, God
90 comments:
MonkeyLover said...
so in california God would DEFINITELY be sittin on death row.
Tue Aug 08, 10:36:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
You counted Nadab and Abihu twice.
Tue Aug 08, 10:32:00 PM 2006
Steve Wells said...
Thanks for the correction.
Tue Aug 08, 11:29:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
they all deserved it...
Wed Aug 09, 11:21:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
What about his own son??? Wasn\'t it God\'s plan even if others carried it out?
What would be really interesting to know is how many people God\'s rival, Lucifer, has murdered. Who is truly the champion in the Death match?
Wed Aug 09, 03:05:00 PM 2006
Brucker said...
I think you ought to make a distinction between different kinds of killing, although I have no doubt the total would be high. On one level, if you want to count anybody who died as a result of God\'s action, then that\'s everyone who ever lived.
What I think is perhaps worthwhile in looking to this list in detail is, who among these people were killed for what purpose? I would suggest these categories:
A) Killed as a result of their aggression against the nation of Israel. (example)
B) Killed as a result of enmity between them and Israel, but not specifically the violent agression of the victim in particular.(possible example)
C) Killed as a result of their sin that made God angry. (example)
D) Killed as a result of somebody else\'s sin. (example)
E) Reason not given. (example)
I think each of these categories deserve different consideration. Definitely A and maybe B are a matter of defensive killing. Many of those in category C make some sense from a theological point of view. I think D and E are the real tough ones.
Thu Aug 10, 12:50:00 PM 2006
ZCT said...
Outstanding, great post, very interesting. I had always known there was a lot of killing by God in the Bible, but I had never spent the time to count it up. Now I don\'t have to, thanks!
Fri Aug 11, 06:06:00 AM 2006
Steve Wells said...
I agree, Brucker, it would help to categorize them. Maybe I\'ll do that before long.
Fri Aug 11, 05:04:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
What about the flood? God killed everyone on earth except Noah and his family.
Tue Aug 15, 01:09:00 PM 2006
SoldierUnderCommand said...
The question you did not ask was; Is God justified in killing these people.
If God is who He says He is, then He is justified in all that He does. He is the ultimate standard for what is just and unjust.
He can kill who He pleases and is righteous in doing it.
Tue Aug 15, 11:41:00 PM 2006
Noumenon said...
Before linking to this, I looked to see if you were fudging the numbers and where the big numbers came from among the 1\'s and 2\'s. So I looked at the Ethiopians who contribute half the total and heck, he just smote them. He didn\'t kill them all. He just made them flee. Not like the #2 item where it tells you there were 500,000 slain. Same with the Syrians. This list, to be most persuasive, should contain only people God killed directly and not people who were killed by the Israelites in battle.
Wed Aug 16, 06:39:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
i personally dont think that someone\'s crime necessarily justifies their death! if you kill someone for doing something bad (even if they\'ve killed someone), then you\'re just as bad as they are.
Wed Aug 16, 10:08:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Those she-bears sure loved them some good finger lickin\' chil\'en.
Thu Aug 17, 06:06:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
you forgot all of the kings listed in Joshua. Why don\'t you list all of the cities that were destroyed as well. Again, at least 12 entire cities destroyed in Joshua.
12:9 The king of Jericho, one; the king of Ai, which is beside Bethel, one;
12:10 The king of Jerusalem, one; the king of Hebron, one;
12:11 The king of Jarmuth, one; the king of Lachish, one;
12:12 The king of Eglon, one; the king of Gezer, one;
12:13 The king of Debir, one; the king of Geder, one;
12:14 The king of Hormah, one; the king of Arad, one;
12:15 The king of Libnah, one; the king of Adullam, one;
12:16 The king of Makkedah, one; the king of Bethel, one;
12:17 The king of Tappuah, one; the king of Hepher, one;
12:18 The king of Aphek, one; the king of Lasharon, one;
12:19 The king of Madon, one; the king of Hazor, one;
12:20 The king of Shimronmeron, one; the king of Achshaph, one;
12:21 The king of Taanach, one; the king of Megiddo, one;
12:22 The king of Kedesh, one; the king of Jokneam of Carmel, one;
12:23 The king of Dor in the coast of Dor, one; the king of the nations of Gilgal, one;
12:24 The king of Tirzah, one: all the kings thirty and one.
Thu Aug 17, 12:51:00 PM 2006
Steve Wells said...
Anonymous said...
You forgot all of the kings listed in Joshua.
Yes, I suppose I could count the 31 kings that the Israelites smote, although the text doesn\'t explicitly say that God assisted in their killing -- which is what I was trying to include in the count. So I\'ll probably leave them out.
Why don\'t you list all of the cities that were destroyed as well. Again, at least 12 entire cities destroyed in Joshua.
Because the number of people killed isn\'t provided, and it also isn\'t clear that God assisted in the slaughter (although it does seem to be implied by the Them did Moses the servant of the LORD and the children of Israel smite in Joshua 12:6).
Thu Aug 17, 01:34:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
You will rightfully burn in the realm of nothingess forever when you die you silly fool; unless you get out of that shallow paradox you think you\'re so smart in and start believing in the One and Only God that created you and gave you a choice to acceot It or deny It in the fist place. And if you deny It, you will be destroyed by your own making. All Satan did was feed you many lies and prove you are an obvious sucker that has bought into this shallow thinking. Lies and people kill people, not God, not guns. Suckers like you do deserve death. But you can also save yourself by believing in Who Jesus said He was. I feel sorry for your shallow, tainted brain.
Fri Aug 18, 07:46:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Lies and people kill people, not God, not guns.
Either God killed Aaron\'s sons, or that Biblical account is a lie. Which is it?
Wed Aug 23, 12:02:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
To the dumbass SoldierUnderCommand who said god is just in killing people for any damned reason he pleases, by this flawed logic, a parent would be correct in murdering their own children for any damned reason they please. And of course that\'s not true, so neither is god justified in his murders.
Thu Aug 24, 01:09:00 PM 2006
Joshua Ditty said...
I think you have forgotten the \'man of god\' from 1st Kings Chapter 13
Thu Aug 24, 04:07:00 PM 2006
Steve Wells said...
Joshua Ditty said...
I think you have forgotten the \'man of god\' from 1st Kings Chapter 13.
Thanks Joshua, I\'ve added it to the list.
Thu Aug 24, 07:02:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Jesus Christ, that\'s a lot of people (no pun intended)!
Thu Aug 24, 08:35:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Nice work!
It\'s kinda like trying to get a count of how many people Rambo killed; both killed a lot of people, both are fictional characters, thankfully!
Thu Aug 24, 09:40:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
To Mr. Caring guy who wrote this gem:
You will rightfully burn in the realm of nothingess forever...
...nice, wow, you seem really angry about something. I wonder why such a knowledgeable, intelligent, righteous person like you who\'s most definitely guaranteed a front row seat into heaven would become so upset at a few people who feel differently than you. I mean you know the truth, right? Why all the anger? I don\'t recall Jesus getting angry, do you? Not very Christian of you, huh?
Poor guy, you\'re just mad because the insecurity of your beliefs is being exposed and you don\'t like it! It\'s pretty obvious.
Thu Aug 24, 09:48:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Interesting that the only two deaths in the New Testament (After Christ has atoned for human sin) Are ghosts given up by the individual due to their actions...
Thu Aug 24, 09:55:00 PM 2006
ML said...
If you\'re being technical, you might as well add JC too...
Fri Aug 25, 04:51:00 AM 2006
Bryan Parker said...
SoldierUnderCommand said...
The question you did not ask was; Is God justified in killing these people.
If God is who He says He is, then He is justified in all that He does. He is the ultimate standard for what is just and unjust.
He can kill who He pleases and is righteous in doing it.
Baddabing Baddaboom. You hit the point dead center.
To Mr. Anonymous who claims that parents and God are on an equal playing field, you are wrong. Let me tell you why:
The reason that parents cannot kill their sons is because we live in a world of laws.
God however, is exempt from all human laws. God is neither subject to even the laws of Physics, nor Time itself.
He is Omnipotent, and created this world that we dwell in. As the creator of the Universe, He may do so as He pleases, and as stated previously, be righteous in doing it.
God, in a matter of speaking, has the one true \'License To Kill\' that which He has created.
Fri Aug 25, 06:43:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
I am more than a little confuzed. I fail to see the import of asking how many people god has killed mainly because the ures you are basing your numbers on has never been proven. The bible is taken on faith of the accuracy of what it written. Unfortunatly, people dont usualy think of what wasnt written. Seeing that the number is probably much higher. The only question I have is So what?
Sat Aug 26, 12:50:00 AM 2006
Jake3988 said...
\'Suckers like you do deserve death.\'
Ah, religious love at its highest. We don\'t accept your silly immorally-ridden religion so we deserve to die.
That\'s nothing compared to some hate mail at FSM, but that\'s for another day.
/Buzz off bozo.
Wed Aug 30, 07:41:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
I think my biggest concern is not God that is killing people, since he is in fact creating them just the same, but what is his so called \'plan\' that we all end up with? I mean, really did he plan to kill all his creations and flood the earth and only save Noah and his family? Seriously, what about everyone else? What about each and every individual, kinda makes me think we\'re more than insignificant, we\'re meaningless to him.
Wed Sep 06, 12:26:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
It is bad enough that god takes credit for killing two million plus people in the old testament, but in the new testament he must top himself by promising to send billions of unbelievers into eternal suffering after death. What a wonderful expression of love??
Wed Sep 06, 03:11:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
we should also analyse the texts of Koran and Torah to investigate the possible body count in the major sacred texts... I think this would clarify that insitutionalised religions have many times killed in the name of god because they wrote a text that tries to give them justification for doing so. A God that kills people and judges them is oretty much the most Ungodly thing there is.... thanks for such an interesting post!
Wed Sep 13, 11:13:00 AM 2006
Shikkarasu said...
Dear regigios nut with the long burn in the realm of nothingess forever rant,
Exodus 23
23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.
23:32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods.
You\'re covenanting with us...I\'ll see you in hell brother^^.
unless you get out of that shallow paradox you think you\'re so smart in
If you have read the bible you will find more paradoxes there then here.
All Satan did was feed you many lies and prove you are an obvious sucker that has bought into this shallow thinking. Lies and people kill people, not God, not guns.
Religious nuts and politicians lie not Satan.
Thu Sep 14, 03:18:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
God blows -,-
Fri Sep 15, 09:07:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Looks like smoting kills
Sun Sep 17, 05:02:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
What kind of super hero would God be if he couldn\'t bust a few chops now and then.
As Horkios, Zeus was the keeper of oaths. Liars who were exposed were made to dedicate a statue to him.
What sort of punishment is that??
Sun Sep 17, 06:54:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
You will rightfully burn in the realm of nothingess forever when you die you silly fool; unless you get out of that shallow paradox you think you\'re so smart in and start believing in the One and Only God that created you and gave you a choice to acceot It or deny It in the fist place. And if you deny It, you will be destroyed by your own making. All Satan did was feed you many lies and prove you are an obvious sucker that has bought into this shallow thinking. Lies and people kill people, not God, not guns. Suckers like you do deserve death. But you can also save yourself by believing in Who Jesus said He was. I feel sorry for your shallow, tainted brain.
Next time the pope wants to quote somebody about the brutality of Islam, he should take a look at this moron in his theological backyard. It\'s comforting to be able to accept things like the Bible or Hesiod\'s Theogeny on faith, since it removes all responsibility from the individual. To think for one\'s self, however, is much more difficult. A tyrant God is no God at all.
Tue Oct 03, 11:39:00 PM 2006
TripleJ said...
Well it sure is a pity this God has stopped killing people as this little wee world is definitely getting overcrowded! :^)
Tue Oct 10, 06:38:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Quoting You will rightfully burn in the realm o...
Did u know that u are just a laboratory rat for god :)? Did u know that god sent us to the earth just to suffer and laugh at satan? Look u fagget, Adam and Eve rebelled against Jehovah. They said: We do not need Jehovah as our Ruler. We can decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong. So instead of blow those faggets out of the earth, the moron
Sat Oct 21, 08:13:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
allowed satan to show how he would rule mankind (We all knew he would fail). God also allowed humans to govern themselves under Satan\'s guidance. And god is so sick, that he\'s taking so long because he LOVES to see his rats suffering, so shut the fúck up and look who ur real father is u douchebag
Sat Oct 21, 08:13:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
God is the one who lit the candles of life within every person born on this planet. As the creator, he has rightful authority over that which he creates. Due to the way life was created, God personally allows for the death of every living thing, including us. Like it or not, he who lights the candles gets to blow them out, in any way he sees fit. Murder, car crashes, old age, disease, etc, etc. I wrote a song one time that sucked. I threw it in the garbage. Do I not have that right? Can the clay say to the potter, why are you destroying me? I think not. He gave us all the gift of life, and he can take it away.
Wed Oct 25, 02:50:00 PM 2006
Tom said...
Bryan Parker said...
God however, is exempt from all human laws. God is neither subject to even the laws of Physics, nor Time itself.
He is Omnipotent...yadda yadda
That\'s quite paradoxical. As a human, our entire concept of cause and effect presuppose a time frame in which any given event takes place. Think about it...for you to claim that something \'caused\' or \'created\' something else, you have to have accepted the premise that the cause came before the effect.
So, in order for your Creator to live up to his name, time must have existed. Humans simply cannot fathom a beginning of time, because the term \'beginning\' implied that there was time BEFORE that event, in which that certain event never took place. Again, causation presupposes both existence and time. Either god is subject to the the contraints of time and therefore is not omnipotent or he does not exist at all.
Thu Oct 26, 02:33:00 PM 2006
Mihai Daniel said...
You make two mistakes. First, you are ommitting the The New Testament\'s message that God has sacrified Himself for us. Then, you are judging God as if He were a mere human being.
Thu Nov 02, 04:05:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Religious wars are naught but,hmm lets see who has the best imaginary friend... ing retards...btw the reason humanity exists is this...To fight and die is why we\'re born. Suck on that. May Tyr guide you in battle. Vahalla can wait,Im going to war. -BloodyChuckles
Tue Nov 07, 01:50:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
how many people were born as a result of G!d
Thu Nov 09, 06:29:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Good job counting the people who died in that book, I wonder how many other people in history have tried that over the years. Its a pitty it never be possible to count the people who died as a result of that book. We could have put a shrine or somthing to the damage its caused like they do for the world wars and car accidents.
As for all this talk about is it ok for a god to kill what he created the answer is simple. There is no god, there is no intelegent design, nothing is planned out to kill you at that exact moment of your death. Ultimatly, shit happens.
Tue Nov 14, 01:22:00 AM 2006
Paul said...
I am 33 and have just read the bible from cover to cover for the first time (took me about three weeks). When I was a kid I had to go to go to Sunday school for a few years and had bible study back then I found it all a bit dull (I think I was only told to read the new testament). I am not really a religious man but I read it in the spirit of trying to understand something that a lot of other people hold as being important to them and thereby improving my understanding of other people. On this re-visit to the bible however I found it compelling reading.
I was shocked at how violent the old testament is and how sadistic and thoroughly unpleasant it would seem that god is (if he / she exists)! I couldn\'t really find anything in there would make me think god was nice or admirable. From the old testament. The only thing I really got (apart from interesting look into history) was that god is very scary, moody and violent. So after reading the bible the obvious question for me was so how many deaths.
So I thank you for the information. I will probably read more of the site it\'s very interesting.
Regards
Paul
Thu Nov 30, 02:49:00 AM 2006
rubadubras said...
Anonymous said...
You will rightfully burn in the realm of nothingess forever when you die you silly fool...
How exactly can you \'burn\' in a realm of NOTHINGness? That\'s just silly... fool.
Sun Dec 03, 10:04:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Have fun in Hell.
Tue Dec 05, 08:49:00 AM 2006
Caleb said...
---------
That\'s quite paradoxical. As a human, our entire concept of cause and effect presuppose a time frame in which any given event takes place. Think about it...for you to claim that something \'caused\' or \'created\' something else, you have to have accepted the premise that the cause came before the effect.
So, in order for your Creator to live up to his name, time must have existed. Humans simply cannot fathom a beginning of time, because the term \'beginning\' implied that there was time BEFORE that event, in which that certain event never took place. Again, causation presupposes both existence and time. Either god is subject to the the contraints of time and therefore is not omnipotent or he does not exist at all.
Thu Oct 26, 02:33:00 PM 2006
-------
http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c039.html
Read the whole thing please, I hope it makes sense (btw I used to be like you)
Sat Dec 09, 05:23:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Great work here Wells. I\'m writing a paper on theology, and started counting God\'s kills in the Bible in order to point out some necessary conditions in defining an omnibenevolent God from Biblical exegesis; after finding one or two I remembered, I found your site. Thanks so much for your help.
Mon Dec 11, 04:27:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
First of all, we must respect other points of view, talkig about the religion tends to be very polemic,
to say the truth, I do not believe in any god (Yavee specilly), so i cannot apply the subjectivity to say, god is the creator, so he can do as he please we must understand that the bible was written by a small civilization, only willing to worship its own god, the mentality of these ancient civilizations was very hostile and stubborn, so, please answer these question, If God helped his crowd (Israel) by destroying others civilizations to the ashes so they could win power and lands, and now a days it seems the same way (the cruel battles that have had israel against palestina, libano, etc) (why didn´t he protect the jews in world war II........) Why did God make the most stupid, ridiculous and bloody things to raise the jews as the most powerful race in the world, and why the hell he does not help the people whom really need help (In africa, In India, In Latin America, In china), why he lets the robber, the assesin, the corrupt, raise higher, and why he did punish people who had flow of semen, virgins that did not show her cothes with the blood of her first relation, cruelty to blasphemy, prophecy and destruction, etc...???
Even jesuschrist was jew, and he was proud of it, he did not want to spread the word to another people, only jews, (women of cananea), i admit he was a wise guy, but he´s that smart to consider him the absolut truth, the bible is what it is today becouse of a smart move that was made in roma between the III an IV century, during the reign of constantin, blame the jews for the death of jesus and make the romans the innocents guys and the chosen ones to spread the truth....but please, only as a request, do not read these polemic comments with a closed mind, try to see them with all the objectivity possible..... thanks.......
Sat Dec 16, 01:25:00 AM 2006
Lithgo said...
Your quote at the top should read:
See now that I, eve I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Talks about how God is like THE God, over everything - death and life. In the Old Testament He deals out both.
But killing isnt murder, and when God does something there is a reason.
In recent news Saddam Hussein was killed for what he\'d done, and even many who are against the death penalty were for
his death. Certainly I\'m against the death penalty, but I note that here its God carrying it out and not a human, its an
all-knowing judge who is never wrong.
so...
1.
Lots wife had just been liberated, rather than assasinated.
She was warned not to look back. What she was looking back on was, I think, a sight humans cant take in, a bit supernatural.
She turned into salt.
2.
What do we know about this guy? He was wicked in the sight of the Lord. So what did he do?
We dont know. Could\'ve committed attrocities I can\'t even think of.
3.
Thats a fair point, but I would argue that you need to take into account the context.
For me reading that the first time it just looks like the main topic is the sperm.
But in context:
Children, specifically descendants, were of huge cultural importance at this time.
When the husband died, it was his brothers responsibility culturally to insure that his
family line continued and he did have offspring. Now to me thats offensive, but this is
a completely different millenia, a totally different culture here.
Its my understanding that in this kind of society where your industries are agriculture
and war, wives didnt have much else to tie their dreams to apart from descendants and
family (unless you get a slightly butch wife into the war fighting and the shepharding and that).
Its my understanding from context that Omans act of withdrawing his sperm was out of
absolute hatred and loathing for his brother.
4.
That is a pretty powerful example.
From a spiritual point of view they have been liberated out of Egypt by miracles like the parting
of the red sea, and the very acts that brought about that liberation from 440 years of slavery.
They are only alive because God protects them from their enemies. They are only alive because
God gives them food (manna) to survive. Thats them from a spiritual point of view - dependant on God.
Now they\'ve tried to cut off God - which is to cut off their entire food supply, cut off their protection, and
to throw their fledgling nation back into captivity. Often times we think well if God exists why doesn\'t
He show us a massive finger from heaven pointing at us and saying yes I exist. Well these guys practically
got that.
5.
First off, you dont lark around at the Lord\'s altar.
Secondly, if you have a high position and are a member of the priesthood you don\'t teach others to do it either.
6.
There has to be a respect of God as God. Now this person will have literally seen incontrovertible evidence
that God is real and has saved him from death in slavery under the egyptians, and he still blasphemes.
7.
One of the first things in their law was to observe the sabbath. He broke that chief law, deliberately because he
\'defiantly...despised the Lord\'s word\'
If he did it unintentionally, the priest would have interceded for him.
8.
They tried to take over God\'s country and take down His prophet, steal it all for themself - God moved back against them.
9.
ditto.
for berevity gonna go over the more dramatic sounding ones, but happy to go over any that are missed out...
Middianite Massacre -
See numbers 25:1-5 and numbers 25:17-18 for the context here.
The virgins had nothing to do with the events of Baal of Peor.
Samsons act of terrorism
These people were bent on destroying God\'s people. God doesn\'t just let them do that.
That applies for a swathe of the examples given.
Davids census
David seemed to lapse in trusting God at this point and wanted to trust in his census of his countrys fighting ability.
He had been forbidden from taking a census - God said not to do it. He did it anyway. And the people in question,
even though God told them not to, signed it anyway. In this sense they abandoned God and followed their own way
of confronting their enemies. The whole thing was a tragedy and reminds them that lead to lead properly, for their
actions carry consequences.
gang of children making fool of elisha
The translations I use describe a gang of youths. If I had a gang of youths coming up to me and jeering at me I
would feel somewhat intimidated. I think its naive to think they didn\'t mean to attack him.
God had by Himself used Elisha to restore water and heal people in the area already, and hes attacked.
the Lord smote the ethiopians
My brief reading indicates this was a great big army trying to destroy Israel, and Israel asked for help.
God helped them, and they won the battle.
Herod died
Through his speech, Herod set himself up as a god, and set himself up against God, but he shouldnt have because
he can\'t fight god. He did this even though in his own land God had revealed himself by sending Jesus to die.
If you wanna get the message of the Bible then please don\'t miss out the gospels.
There is a juxtaposition in the bible of God the righteous judge and God who loves us.
When you talk about nations and laws and all that you see the judge side of it. Its only when you look at the peoples
individual relationship (eg Psalms, Moses, epistles, gospels) that you see the love side. For me the gospels explain
much of the bible, the centre stuff that we don\'t demand an answer from God about but that God demands an answer from
us about.
Mon Jan 01, 05:08:00 PM 2007
Ian Osmond said...
That\'s quite paradoxical. As a human, our entire concept of cause and effect presuppose a time frame in which any given event takes place. Think about it...for you to claim that something \'caused\' or \'created\' something else, you have to have accepted the premise that the cause came before the effect.
So, in order for your Creator to live up to his name, time must have existed. Humans simply cannot fathom a beginning of time, because the term \'beginning\' implied that there was time BEFORE that event, in which that certain event never took place. Again, causation presupposes both existence and time. Either god is subject to the the contraints of time and therefore is not omnipotent or he does not exist at all.
This, interestingly, was one of the paradoxes that Rabbi Akiva attempted to deal with in the Around Year Zero era. He and three other rabbis attempted to make some way of using Greek philosophy, and the ideas of testable science, and see if they couldn\'t make some kind of synthesis between the Jewish faith-based beliefs and the rational Greek philosophy of the larger Greco-Roman culture.
According to tradition, Rabbi Meir backed out of the project early, Rabbi Elisha ben Abuyah lost his faith and gave up on Judaism, and Rabbi Yochanon (I think, I forget exactly who the third was) went crazy and died. And only Rabbi Akiva managed to find a way that he felt comfortable with.
Now, for me, I think of it this way: if we think of time as a fourth spacial dimension, which, y\'know, we CAN, we can imagine God to be OUTSIDE of the fourspace of our universe, looking in on it. God can therefore see the entire timeline of the universe from begining to end.
So, does this mean that we cannot have free will, that everything is predestined? Well, that is one theological position -- some Calvanists worked on this assumption. And I\'ve encountered physicists who, more or less, believe something similar: that the entire four-space of our universe exists, and therefore we have already, in a sense, done everything we are going to do, and that the illusion of free will is simply based on the fact that our perceptions of reality are moving directionally through the four-space of the universe.
And that means that we have no free will.
Me, I look at it a little differently.
For the sake of argument, I\'m going to try to have it both ways. I\'m going to assume that this four-space model of the universe is more-or-less correct, and yet I\'m ALSO going to assume that, in some sense or other, we have free will. And see if I can\'t come up with SOME way of combining those two ideas that I can sort of squish my brain around.
I\'m a human being, and that means, according to this model, that I can percieve, from moment to moment, only that infetesimally thin slice of the fourspace that is the present at any moment. That moment that I can perceive progresses forward through the time axis of the universe at one second per second (um, barring relatavistic effects? I really can\'t wrap my brain around the math for this one. But, in any case, it\'s probably close enough to work.)
Now, I cannot perceive any moment ahead or behind me. However, because of memory and records, I can, in a sense, have some kind of imperfect simulation of perception of the moments behind me.
So, let\'s say that I\'m reading a history book, and it says that, say, Alexander the Great did not go on to attempt to conquer India. Or, let\'s say that I\'m remembering my day, and I remember that I brushed my top teeth before I brushed my bottom teeth this morning.
If we accept a common definition of free will, we can state that Alexander COULD have chosen to attempt to invade India, or that I COULD have chosen to brush my bottom teeth before my top teeth.
Yet he didn\'t, and I didn\'t.
Does the fact that we DIDN\'T make those choices mean that we COULDN\'T have made those choices?
Well, that\'s the $64,000 question, isn\'t it? I feel that it does NOT mean that. We COULD HAVE chosen differently, we simply DIDN\'T.
And therefore, the fact that our actions are locked in the past does NOT mean that we did NOT have free will.
Now, if that logic holds true for the past, then it would hold true for the future, as well. We have free will, and we will freely choose all the choices of our life.
Yet we could imagine a God who existed outside of this timeline, who could perceive the entire timeline at once.
And I believe that there is not an inherent contradition between those ideas -- that we exist in a timeline in which things have happened, are happening, and will happen, and that we make choices in the are happening stage which affect the will happen stage, and that we make those choices freely -- yet something could exist OUTSIDE that timeline which could perceive that timeline.
It makes my brain hurt to think about it, and I don\'t expect the argument to convince everyone, but that\'s my way of reconciling the paradox of free will vs omniscience.
Sun Jan 07, 08:51:00 PM 2007
alienbinary said...
I think the important question is whether or not we should count all the armies that have pledged for god and country and their confirmed kill count as well. If we accept that religious fanatacism as chronicled in the Bible is the core cause of most of these tallies, then the kill count must be higher. - alienbinary
Wed Jan 10, 10:54:00 AM 2007
Gareth said...
Hmmm...
So God kills 2.27 million people (including women and children) and yet is still loved by many.
Hitler comes along and kills 6 million people (including women and children), and is remembered as an evil man.
Is there a numerical limit on the number of people (including women and children) you can kill before you flip from being a good person to a bad one?
Fri Jan 12, 03:00:00 AM 2007
Anonymous said...
I think its amazing people believe in this nonsense and take it so seriously.
Maybe in a few thousand years they\'ll realize its all a load of hooey... just like Mt Olympus. Jeeze; the human race as one shallow learning curve.
Tue Jan 16, 03:53:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
this is in the bible, i wonder, throughout history, how many has the abrahamic god killed in real life?
Tue Jan 23, 12:18:00 PM 2007
TerrorBite said...
[What if God played video games?]
Congratulations. You have made a new high score:
2,270,369 points
Please enter your initials:
G O D_
Thu Jan 25, 12:44:00 AM 2007
Anonymous said...
FEORI
Sat Jan 27, 06:44:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
Interesting that those lives being killed by satan\'s influence via alcohol/drug use, murders, and suicides to name a few are not mentioned or even our main concern. God have mercy on us all, that we not be one of those satan decides to use in the near future.
Tue Jan 30, 06:24:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
God\'s existence is proven by the very fact that people want to try to disprove his existence. Deep down everyone knows God exists, but they want to sin and not feel guilty about it, so they try to convince themselves that God doesn’t really exist and that they won’t be punished for their sins. This is why people get in such heated debates about whether or nor God exists, because they cannot fully convince themselves and they want others to agree with them so they won\'t feel as guilty. If God didn’t exist, then people wouldn’t care so much when the subject was brought up.
John 3:19-20 “The light from heaven came into the world, but they loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. They hate the light because they want to sin in the darkness. They stay away from the light for fear their sins will be exposed and they will be punished.”
This is what Jesus is saying in these verses. Despite the undeserved kindness and love he has shown mankind, people will still hate him because they want to sin without feeling guilty about it, which is why they crucified him.
John 7:7 “The world hates me because I accuse it of sin and evil.”
Don’t think that I am a hypocrite though, I know I have sinned. I was addicted to pornography/masturbation for about 10 years (and I’m only 20 now), but I admit that I am a sinner and that I needed Jesus to save me, and now I am no longer addicted pornography/masturbation. Sure, I still sin, but no where near as much as I did before.
As to God killing people, can you honestly tell me that you loved those people more than he did? No, you can’t, you’re just looking for another way to convince yourself that God doesn’t exist so you can feel less guilty about your sins. God alone is righteous, and though you can’t always understand why he does something, he has never sinned. God doesn’t send people to hell, you send yourself there. God has offered the free gift of salvation to everyone, you have no right to blame him because you refused the free gift he wanted to give you.
I recommend checking out GotQuestions.org if you are interested in God’s gift of salvation, or even if you already have accepted his gift.
Thu Feb 01, 12:29:00 AM 2007
Garet Pahl said...
It was GOD who killed Jesus.
10 Yet it was the LORD\'s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,he will see his offspring and prolong his days,and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul, will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors.For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. -Isaiah 53
Sun Feb 04, 06:45:00 PM 2007
Randy Bowman said...
I just wanted to say thanks for this list...I\'m writing an essay, and was looking for examples of God killing people, especially in battle, directly. I\'m contrasting Him to the gods in Homer\'s Iliad, who never actually kill anyone. The Assyrians will do nicely, I think. Thanks!
Fri Feb 16, 01:57:00 PM 2007
sal said...
Deep down everyone knows God exists, but they want to sin and not feel guilty about it, so they try to convince themselves that God doesn’t really exist and that they won’t be punished for their sins.
ummm... no. This is simply incorrect. I (like many) know that there is no god. and yet, I do feel shame for things I have done in my life.
I have the ability to feel shame for things I did in the past because as I have matured I can see that some things I did in the past were not in my or someone elses best interests. I do not call these things I have done sins as the word is not part of my vocabulary. The word punishment is in my vocabulary, punishments comes from other people.
The motivation to keep from continuing to do things that are not in my own or other people\'s best interest is simply that life is better when all living things and all the things that they relie on are treated with respect & understanding. It is a very strong motivation, and all that is necessary.
sal
Tue Feb 27, 09:29:00 AM 2007
Unbeliever said...
It\'s great to have a resource such as this, I\'m just wondering why it took so long for someone to do the work required. I was going to do it myself, but now all I have to do is double-check your count, which I\'m fairly sure is as accurate as you could make it. Thanks Steve!
Wed Feb 28, 06:43:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
This site is awesome!
Oh no, I am in helllll!
What a lovely man. No seriously, if this God would actully consider sending someone to eternal damnation for saying that..He shouldn\'t be ted to, he should be resisted.
Thu Mar 01, 01:22:00 PM 2007
stuart said...
Any religion is evil, when it expects everyone to follow the same religion. Why do Christians need to go to a church anyway, what difference should it make? Doesn\'t God judge people by their deeds, not the silly club they belong too? Any Christian that claims going to a church saves the soul is just plain stupid. I don\'t have a religion myself, but I believe it\'s much more important to do good deeds in life rather than go to a silly club. I have worked for Unicef, should I expect special treatment, front row seats in heaven, or are these seats reserved only for Christians. Jesus wasn\'t a Christian anyway, he was a Jew, if Chrisitans want to follow in his footsteps, why don\'t they attend a synagogue? mmm.. The last testament is only an attempt to legitimate Roman rule, turning Caesers into Popes and blaming the death of Jesus on Jews, so stupid when Jesus was supposedly cruxified not stoned to death. Cruxifiction is a Roman punishment for crimes against the Roman state, not a Jewish punishment for heresy. mmm..Jesus claimed to be the King of the Jews, maybe that\'s why he was cruxified, ...makes more sense....
Fri Mar 09, 01:45:00 AM 2007
Tom said...
Excellent post. Now all christians need to do is accept that, by their own admission (God is unchanging: Mal 3:6, Psalms 102:25-27, Heb 13:8), the supposedly loving god of the New Testament committed all these atrocities in the Old Testament, then they might realise that christianity is not so loving, even if you ignore all the violence committed in god\'s name.
Sat Mar 31, 06:53:00 AM 2007
Daniel said...
Amazing how much bickering a fictional character can cause
Wed Apr 04, 04:49:00 PM 2007
Pete Dunn said...
I could never stand to read the Bible as much as you must have to come up with this list. In fact, I found even this list nauseating.
Wed Apr 04, 07:51:00 PM 2007
jb said...
I made a couple interactive charts with your data
People murdered by God (food)
People murdered by God (sans flood)
Thu Apr 05, 07:56:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
Someone mentioned that he killed his own son...
That would be human sacrifice the bible (through others or as directly noted from the mouth of God IN the Bible) expressly prohibits human sacrifice, saying that it is something the heathen/pagans do.
It is surprising how he contradicts himself.
Sun Apr 08, 10:14:00 AM 2007
Anonymous said...
Hmm...Interesting.
I see that you have deleted the post from the bright and inquizzitive Lachdenan.
Now why would you do something like that unless he was right and it offended you?
My, that is truly a mystery.
What was that? Any religion is evil, when it expects everyone to follow the same religion.
All to true, Stuart. And, of course, going to church cannot save you. Although Jesus made a regular attendance at the temple and taught there, that is not His requisite for salvation. It is something so simple: belief.
Does it really take so much faith to believe?
It seems that instead of a free marketplace of ideas that this is, in fact, a church without God, wherein, if one is to prove Him or to even give a reasonable opinion in His favor, then that same person shall then be expelled for their heresy in your eyes.
How much longer will you cover them?
Mon Apr 09, 04:12:00 PM 2007
foreignergrl said...
I have no problem with God killing people. After all, IF he GIVES life, he can TAKE life AWAY, right?
My problem is that you can\'t have it both ways. You can\'t acknowledge those killings and say that God is love, and that his Mercy is infinite, etc, in the same breath.
In my view, either we have a psychopath God that likes to kill people, or God IS love and the bible IS a LIE. Or something else in between. But you can\'t call such Deity good, loving, and merciful. If someone has an explanation to that I\'d like to read.
Tue Apr 10, 05:04:00 PM 2007
[AcidcorE said...
To an Anonymous who posted this:
You will rightfully burn in the realm of nothingess forever...
How can I burn in nothingess? And how can nothing become a realm if it has nothing in it or is nothing?
Jackass.
Fri Apr 13, 03:21:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
Many believe that every death is the will of God... So He did not kill just these 2,270,369+ but everybody who has ever lived and died.
Tue Apr 17, 04:51:00 AM 2007
Sean said...
There is ONE thing that all the Christians who have been flaming this thread are completely missing. Human Laws are based on God\'s laws. The 10 Commandments people! It is reasonable to assume that any person, all knowing, omnipotent, or otherwise, who preaches one thing but does not act upon thier own teachings, loses any credibility they once had. The saying Practice What You Preach comes to mind here. One too many religious zealots have preached the word of their Righteous, Forgiving, and Kind God yet acted in complete ambivalence to the beliefs they hold dear. Don\'t go saying that God is not subject to Human law when he set forth the whole, Thou Shalt Not Murder thing. This is basic common sense, even for a superbeing.
Tue Apr 17, 08:39:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
The Aliens from Outer Space must be laughing themselves to death at all our moronic superstitions.
Thu Apr 19, 09:24:00 AM 2007
saintdane said...
this is incredible i cant see how people can belive that god is good
Fri Apr 20, 07:24:00 AM 2007
Anonymous said...
let me say something about this um
first of all noah told them fools that there was going to be a world wide flood it was there own fault the got killed not god\'s they were warned they thought they were so smart as do you they were fools
every body that died in the bible where killed because they did not listen ok also god created this world he can destroy if he wants
if you where not so brain washed you would listen but you think your so damn smart without god you would not be here when your standing in front of god himself asking your self why you were a fool and your sorry he will say you had your chance and then he will cast you into the pit of hell
for eternity then you will burn and burn with regret so if you fools dont change your ways an thank god for every second you live god created a perfect world and man messed it up and brought death in to the world because man didnt listen so get your facts right god siad not to eat the fruit of the tree or you shsll die the snake that tricked adam and eve in the garden of eden siad ye shall not surely die you shall become like gods
if you eat the fruit they were tricked as were you im only 17 years old and i now the truth ok if you still think your so smart email me at logoxgx54@yahoo.com if not look into kent hovind he will show you please dont be fools.
Sat Apr 21, 04:38:00 AM 2007
lysdexia said...
there -> their
Everyone in the world didn\'t listen? Wrong.
It\'s parents who made everyone, not God, cretin.
It was God who was a liar in the Garden when he said that those who ate the fruit shall surely die; the snake said that they shall not die and would become as gods, which was true.
http://google.com/groups?q=God-lied
And Krist, who said that his generation shall not pass until the tribulation, the end of the world!, and his return (Matt 24:34) was also a liar, as it did not happen by the year -4+33+25=54. If interpretators mean the destruction of the temple in 70, then Matt 24:14 is wrong as the Gospel was not preached to all nations yet (I think it is already, by now, so it\'d be wrong today also.) and Matt 24:29-31 are wrong as there were no such celestial signs.
The tribulation already expired.
Sun Apr 22, 04:49:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
What you have to understand is that Yahweh is actually not The God, he is a Sumerian Dragon God originally known as Enlil who flooded the world because people were too noisy. The real God who created these intelligent dragons out of some kind of dinosaur 100 million years ago had a whole universe to manage so he left the dragon Yahweh in charge, that being a dragon, naturally revels in burning and consuming people, just like the fairytale dragons. The bible even describes him as a dragon, with fire spewing from his mouth and smoke from his nostrils.
Mon Apr 23, 05:28:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
he doest exist,so he can\'t murder
Thu Apr 26, 02:01:00 PM 2007
Acharya S said...
Very useful and thorough analysis. I might also suggest this essay, Victims of the Christian Faith.
Keep up the good work.
Acharya S
Author of The Christ Conspiracy
Sun May 06, 11:15:00 PM 2007
Brucker said...
Holy crap, Steve, I think you\'ve got more comments on this one post than I have on my whole blog!
Tue Jun 05, 01:10:00 AM 2007
Gareth Chambers said...
God is a righteous God and his actions are beyond our limited comprehension! The God that is put into an image and labelled is the creation of the human mind and therefore falls far short of the truth! We sometimes see God as a cuddly Father figure but we forget that He is a God which is above good and evil! He is beyond either because of the enormity of His being! To understand His actions is to understand His being and scale which is a complete figment of our imagination! By that I mean we don’t have the power in terms of mentality or spiritually nor will we! To try and rationally think through Gods actions is to say that He is in some way equal to us which is a lie created to make people doubt our Mighty God! We cant understand the realm in which God is therefore we cannot ever question one of His actions!
Wed Jun 27, 07:38:00 AM 2007
Gareth Chambers said...
What is your explanation for all the rash killings and deaths in the Old Testament Commanded by God – and why are they in such contrast to the New Testament ?
My first thought is that God in fact is not “killing” by definition in our sense of the word. Because its not murder – God is rightfully taking what is his - Life?? And his plans aren’t always known to men.
Secondly of all these thousands of people who died as a direct result of God – Could we not say that anyone who ever dies ANYWHERE is a direct result of God as he is all-knowing, all powerful and in control if everything. He gives life and he takes away.
Thirdly Look at the “Bible Panorama” In its basic terms it is 2 testaments, New and Old, With the centre event being the Death of Christ at the cross. There are so many parallels between the Old and New Testaments.
1 – Blood / Animal sacrifices are needed to a priest – Now no more is needed as Jesus has paid the once and for all salvation (to those who accept)
2 – Old Covenant / New Covenant
3 – God who too holy to be seen by man / Marked by the veil in the Temple – NT – Jesus Christ has been made the mediator between man and God.
4 – God spoke through prophets and dreams / visions – Now he speaks through his word the bible and the actions words of his son. God in humanity.
5 – Prophecy fulfilled to the exact letter and future events yet to be fulfilled
What does this mean? Could it possibly be that the reason why God “let people die” was not because with respect he was going around killing who he pleased irrespective of what they done? NO………………….God is a righteous judge, his ways are not our ways BUT lets look at what people did to deserve this?
(A) Killed as a result of their aggression against the nation of Israel.
(B) Killed as a result of enmity between them and Israel, but not specifically the violent aggression of the victim in particular.
(C) Killed as a result of their sin that made God angry
(D) Killed as a result of somebody else\'s sin. ???
Now can you see any parallels with the New Testament? God has warned us we are in danger (living in sin) But he is just and righteous, and as per usual has created a solution which is the death of Jesus on the cross i.e what I am saying is that God does not kill innocents, unless they reject his message of warning, then he has no choice because he HAS to be just, its his nature.
Wed Jun 27, 07:39:00 AM 2007
Erik Hanselmann said...
...at the end of the times, all will be revived.
Wed Jun 27, 09:07:00 PM 2007
Za said...
oh boy, do I have a lot I would like to say, but since there is so much to respond to, I\'ll just respond to the promenent things.
to Tom who said That\'s quite paradoxical. As a human, our entire concept of cause and effect presuppose a time frame in which any given event takes place. Think about it...for you to claim that something \'caused\' or \'created\' something else, you have to have accepted the premise that the cause came before the effect.
So, in order for your Creator to live up to his name, time must have existed. Humans simply cannot fathom a beginning of time, because the term \'beginning\' implied that there was time BEFORE that event, in which that certain event never took place. Again, causation presupposes both existence and time. Either god is subject to the the contraints of time and therefore is not omnipotent or he does not exist at all.
The word creator is english, for whatever is used to descibe as creator in the orignal language, but that is not what is important; the word is used to describe the act that we can only describe as creating, but does not mean it falls into the rules of cause and effect, and on top of that it does not matter because you are assuming that because God is outside of time that he can not effect things inside of time and use the cause and effect method to create as you put it.
what I am basically saying is: Think about how your arguement could be wrong before posting and it would save time from people like me to correct you.
To all the hateful Christians here and that will be here: LEAVE, you are not helping anyone or changing anyone\'s minds, you are just letting off anger, which makes other people angry, and as the Bible says: ...anger gives a foothold to the Devil
To the author: Even as a Christian I find your list interresting and might suggest (if you haven\'t already) that you add the two from the NT that were killed by the Holy Spirit (which if you follow theology closely enough, you would know is apart of God).
To those that say that God was/is wrong to kill people for their sins: You can only see what they are now, not what they will be if they were allowed to live, but God can. People can not use that kind of logic because we can not see what would happen, we can only deal with what has already happened and judge what would be best (thus the death penalty). I believe the things that happened and were recorded in the OT were to show that sin is worng and why God would not handle things in any other way (and to show that He has control to do what he says), like teaching young kids early math, then He set what He wanted to happen, for people to see his love, but He had to set-up for it and make prophcies so people would believe (or at least not have an excuse when they did not believe), so then He could show the right way of living (which is what they could have lived like if they would just listen to God), just like then teaching higher level math after the basics.
To the one who said God lied when He told Adam and Eve that they would die if they ate the fruit:
If you haven\'t noticed, they aren\'t alive. God didn\'t say it would be instant death, but they did die (Adam died at 930, but he could have lived forever, I think he was punished for what he did, and same with Eve)
To the one who said you can\'t be saved by going to church: You\'re right, I am not saved by going to church, but by going to church I learned how I could be saved and later learned how I could help save others. I also learned that that doing good things will not save you. Your good actions do not overturn the punishment of death which is earned by sin (any sin), which is why Jesus died, to pay that price for us.
To whoever will try to say that it is not fair that God punishes any sin with death (or something similar): If you look around you find lots of Christians doing unchristian things. Why? Because they think that they are ok because Jesus will forgive them (I do know if people like that will get into heaven), but imagine if the cost of sin was less, we would have so much sin of all kinds everywhere. God does not judge sin on a case to case basis because if He did, we would begin to think that we could get away with little things, but not realize that little things add up to cause big problems. The punishment for sin is death because God takes sin seriously and because if he didn\'t take it so seriously, we wouldn\'t.
To all who disagree with things that can\'t be disproved easily by logic (I\'m sure there is something in all that): I know you don\'t believe me, as I don\'t believe you, and I think that may be more because we all like to hold to what we believe already rather than listen to someone we disagree with (I try to not do that as much as possible), but I will also try to tear apart arguements I disagree with (which I\'ve had pretty good success with). Still in all that I still believe the Bible and think that in the end most of the world is going to hell, and I believe there is a reason that God is justified in this (though it is one of the few things that excape my ablity to understand things), and I\'m sure you still don\'t believe (or at least disagree or this is not written to you), and I don\'t expect that to change with just this (I expect that only God can make such lage changes).
To all: Well, thank you for listining as I rambled on and on.
Mon Jul 02, 07:19:00 AM 2007
Za said...
I just noticed on the list that you put Herod, which is incorrect by your standards (and possible in truth). The Bible does not say if Herod was killed by God (or killed at all for that matter), it only says that an angel said that the ones that were trying to kill Jesus were dead (which may mean there were others who wanted Jesus dead, not that I guess you care about that piece of theology)
Mon Jul 02, 09:44:00 AM 2007
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