The Ming emperors were Muslims?

The Ming emperors were Muslims? 

 

Read the arguments about Zhenghe. Not surprised that all of you are disucussing something way beyongd the truth. The truth is that the emperor of MIng was Muslim himself. He send muslim Zhenghe to found meicca,where is the sacred place for the Muslim. All his sailing routes is about muslim. Here is the picture I made. Although I wrote a paper in Chinese that evidence about the ZhuYuanZhang , the emperor of Ming, is Muslim himself. Sorry, do not have time to translate them into English now. Just post it.

 

【圖文】海內外數位學者證明：明朝的朱元璋是“回回”人
一。民間的傳說，正史，野史
朱元璋手下回民將領之多，是其他開國領袖不能比的。而元末時，政治空氣是很敏感的，為什麽一個回民集團會團結在他周圍呢？朱元璋的夫人姓馬，不曾纏足，這幾乎說明了一切，十個回民九個姓馬，回民女性皆不纏足，那時回民不大可能與外族通婚。安徽地區有大量的色目人，民間又有十回保一朱的說法，分指常遇春、胡大海、馮國勇、馮勝、丁德興、藍玉、沐英、華雲、李文忠等人。被朱棣篡位後梟首的兵部尚書鐵鉉就是色目人。 這樣一個回教色彩濃厚的集團在戰亂的情況下有可能拱衛一個漢人登基麽？

1。朱元璋十七歲時的“特殊”葬親儀式：
《明史》載：“至正四年(1344年)旱蝗，大饑疫，太祖時年十七，父母兄相繼歿，貧不克葬，裏人劉繼祖與之地，乃克葬，即鳳陽陵也。” 《明史》沒有說明是如何克葬的。海外著名史學家黎東方博士所著的細說中國曆史係列中《細說明朝》記載：“他是貧農家庭的安分守己的子弟，在他十七歲的一年，元順帝至正四年(1344年)旱災，蝗蟲與瘟疫先後降臨到他的家鄉，濠州鍾離縣(安徽鳳陽)，父親朱世珍，母親陳氏，大哥朱興隆，在幾天內相繼去世，家裏的現款極少，買不起三口棺材，更買不起墳地，幸虧有鄰居劉家心好，準他和二哥朱興盛把父母和大哥三人的屍首用白布裹起，埋在劉家墳地的一個角落。” 按漢族的傳統習慣，富戶人家所用棺材一般以杉木製成；中等家庭則使用普通木材製成；貧戶人家庭則使用薄皮棺材；赤貧者則使用蘆葦包卷，抬往曠野埋葬。朱氏一家如是漢族，為何一反漢族的傳統習慣而改用白布呢?況且白布的價格比薄板、蘆葦昂貴，朱氏一家屬赤貧，為何舍棄廉價之物不買而去買昂貴的白布呢? 伊斯蘭教規定穆斯林亡者須穿“克凡”(白布殮衣)後土葬。由此可以推斷朱家並非窮得買不起最簡單的棺材才用白布，而是按伊斯蘭教的規定處理喪事。

2。朱元璋在“皇覺寺”當“和尚”
《明史》卷一載：“太祖孤無所依，乃入皇覺寺為僧。”黎東方的《細說明朝》記載：“就這樣，從陰曆四月挨到九月，九月裏他進了皇覺寺，受戒當和尚。” 但是，皇覺寺不是通常意義上的佛道教的寺廟，而是一座清真寺，朱元璋出家為“僧”實際上是在清真寺裏做“海裏凡”(經堂學生，西北地區稱“滿拉”)，皇覺寺這一名稱則是朱元璋登基稱帝後所賜的名稱，意為皇帝在此寺中覺醒。皇覺寺位於鳳陽城西門外，是一座坐西向東的寺院。根據中國傳統，凡儒、佛、道教的寺廟、觀均坐北向南，而中國的清真寺一律坐西朝東，因為中國穆斯林做禮拜時，須朝向位於中國西方的麥加天房，皇覺寺正好坐西朝東，且其建築形式與我國清真寺建築形式雷同。

朱元璋稱帝後，對“僧”、“光”、“禿”等的同音字非常忌諱。尉氏（河南尉氏）縣學教授許元，在奏章上有“體乾法坤，藻飾太平。”這兩句話是千年以前的古文，但朱元璋卻解釋說：“法坤與‘發髡’同音，發髡是剃光了頭，諷刺我當過和尚。藻飾與‘早失’同音，顯然要我早失太平。”於是許無被處斬。杭州府學教授徐一夔的表文中有“光天之下”、“天生聖人”等語，朱元璋牽強附會，說文中的“光”指光頭，“生”是“僧”的諧音，徐是在借進呈表文罵他當過和尚。德安府訓導吳憲的表文中有“望拜青門”之語，朱認為，“青門”是指和尚廟。這些犯了忌諱的，都被“誅其身而沒其家”在朱元璋的淫威之下喪了命。 朱元璋為什麽如此的忌諱和尚？ 原因很明顯拉。

朱元璋對待佛教的態度。 按常理說朱元璋的"和尚"經曆應該讓他對佛教有種特別的好感，但是明朝的法律卻極力限製佛教的發展：廢除大量的佛教寺院，每縣最多保留一座大觀寺；逼迫大量的僧尼還俗，並規定男40歲以下，女50歲以下不得出家。 而對於當時勢力並不太強大的伊斯蘭教和回族卻采取懷柔政策，敕建了很多清真寺。

朱元璋登基後敕建清真寺於南京、西安及滇、閩、粵等地區。南京清真寺賜名“淨覺寺”落成後頻臨幸，並禦製至聖《百字讚》賜清真寺，《百字讚》讚頌了真主和穆聖，並褒揚了伊斯蘭，如果對伊斯蘭沒有感情和深刻的認識，寫不出如此傑作。《百字讚》收錄於清代劉智著作《天方至聖實錄》內，其全文如下：“乾坤初始，天籍注名，傳教大聖，降生西域，受授天經，三十部冊，普化眾生，億兆君師，萬聖領袖，協助天運，保庇國民，五時祈佑，默祝太平，存心真主，加誌窮民，拯救患難，洞徹幽冥，超拔靈魂，脫離罪業，仁覆天下，道冠古今，降邪歸一，教名清真，穆罕默德。至貴聖人。”另外還依據明武宗朱厚照（1506—1521在位）對各宗教的評論和《禦製尊真主事詩》。武宗評論各宗教日：“儒者之學雖可以開物成物，而不足以窮神知化。佛老之學，似類窮神知化而不能複命歸真。蓋諸教之道各執一偏，唯清真認主之教，深源於正理，此所以乘萬世與天壤久也。”《尊真主事詩》日：“一教玄玄諸教迷，其中奧妙少人知，佛是人修人是佛，不尊真主卻尊誰？”

二。鄭和七下南洋不是去經商和搞殖民地的，而是去追尋其回回阿拉伯老祖宗的遷移史，雲南大學國際關係學院教授的肖憲論證. 鄭和七下南洋途中在東南亞的傳播伊斯蘭教。鄭和航海之前的中國，伊斯蘭已有很大的發展。中國穆斯林嚴格遵守信仰，建立了經常教育製度，發展了中國穆斯林的文化教育，並在各地建起了許多宏偉、體現中阿藝術融合的清真寺。而同時期的東南亞，由於受印度文化的影響，還流行印度教和佛教，伊斯蘭在大多地區仍無影響，隻有極少數地區的人信仰伊斯蘭。 當鄭和遠航經過東南亞諸國時，每到一地都要與其隨從穆斯林馬歡、郭崇禮、哈三等舉行儀式並宣傳伊斯蘭教義，並建立華人穆斯林社會區以傳播伊斯蘭。隨著鄭和在東南亞對伊斯蘭的宣傳，使得東南亞地區，尤其是在印度尼西亞和馬來西亞的伊斯蘭迅速地發展起來。 之後，鄭和七下南洋的資料被明朝自己銷毀。明朝為什麽自己銷毀?

三。19世紀，在土耳其發現了旅行家賽義德阿裏.阿克巴爾哈塔伊
於1516年(即回曆922年，明武宗正德十一年) ，用波斯文寫的《中國紀行》一書。 全書共2l章，用較多的篇幅介紹了明代中國伊斯蘭教的情況， 特別記述了明代王室與伊斯蘭教的關係。中國張至善、張鐵偉、嶽家明三人以英、德譯本和新波斯文本為依據， 編譯成漢文本，並附有國際上對該書研究之論文13篇,照片和圖表7幅,1988年,由三聯書店出版。
波斯旅行家賽義德·阿裏·阿克巴爾·哈塔伊於1500遊曆中國，於1516年在當時奧斯曼帝國首都君士坦丁堡，用波斯語寫成《中國紀行》一書，作為禮物奉獻給土耳其素丹賽利姆一世。該書全麵介紹了當時中國社會各方麵的狀況。作者出於穆斯林的宗教感情，以較多的篇幅著重介紹了明朝王室與伊斯蘭教的關係，說：“宮廷內有皇帝專用的清真寺，有宣禮員，主麻日（星期五）皇帝到城外的清真寺做聚禮，以及穆斯林文臣武將對明朝開國的貢獻、皇帝對他們的重用等。說：“從皇帝的某些行為看，他已信奉伊斯蘭教了，然而由於害怕喪失權力，他不能對此公開宣布。這是因為他的國家風俗和法規所規定的……。”阿裏·阿克巴爾的描述是他親眼所見，與中國民間的傳說相吻合。

四。台灣馬明道參照該書及明正史、野史、史學家的評述、回民口碑傳說， 對明朝王室的族屬和宗教信仰進行了詳盡的研究考證， 於1973年寫出《明朝皇家信仰考初稿》一書。 確認朱元璋、馬皇後及其家族和親戚均為回回。

五。 周有光 ，我國德高望重的著名語言學家 ，任中國社會科學院研究生院研究員、語言文字應用委員會研究員，他的話可是有份量的 ，以他的年齡和身份沒必要嘩眾取崇的。他說： 遼、金、元、明、清這五代的1000年，都是外族打進中原來加以統治的。 其中遼、金、元、清是外族，大家都是同意的， 明朝是不是外族呢？ 現在新的考證說明太祖朱元璋不是漢族而是回族，這已經證明了。

六。陳梧桐，著名明史專家，中央民族大學教授， 兼任中國明史學會理事、朱立璋研究會顧問。 他對周有光 上麵的話反駁， 但他的反駁軟弱無力，基本都是推測或者主觀上的。 這從反麵證實了周有光說的有道理。

七。白壽彝先生, 1932年畢業於燕京大學國學研究所，先後執教於雲南大學、中央大學、北京師範大學，致力於中國民族史、中國史學史及中國通史的研究。主要著作有《學步集》、《回族人物誌》、《中國史學史教本》、《中國通史》等，視野恢宏，器識卓越，是著名的曆史學家。在1946年出版的《中國伊斯蘭史綱要》一書中，有條腳注提到過“父老相傳，明太祖原是回回；建文帝的出走，係赴天方朝覲。又頗有人相信，武宗也信教（指伊斯蘭教）”（《民族宗教論集》，河北教育出版社2001年版第412頁）。

八。朱元璋的菜單。 “參加第10屆明史學術討論會的台灣“中研院”曆史語言研究所邱仲麟先生首次公開了他從明人筆記中發現的這張菜單。 “胡椒醋鮮蝦、燒鵝、燌羊頭蹄、鵝肉巴子、鹹鼓芥末羊肚盤、蒜醋白血湯、五味蒸雞、元汁羊骨頭、糊辣醋腰子、蒸鮮魚、五味蒸麵筋、羊肉水晶角兒、絲鵝粉湯、三鮮湯、綠豆棋子麵、椒末羊肉、香米飯、蒜酪、豆湯、泡茶”看著這張菜單，您一定會胃口大開。可是您也許不知道，這竟是洪武十七年（1384年）6月某天，明太祖朱元璋的午餐菜譜。

最後，現在的學術界所謂持審慎的態度，正如吹捧唐朝貶低清朝一樣，是為了一些人的所謂大漢族自尊心，是怕更多的少數民族皇帝開創中國曆史的事實，這個對一些漢人脆弱的自尊心打擊太大了 。中國的曆史學者什麽時候會擺脫成見，做個名符其實的學者呢？北京某大學教授周思源的唐朝疆域是現在版圖的一倍，這麽瘋狂吹捧唐朝的話，什麽時候會消失呢？中國五千年的文明，證據在哪裏呢？

常見問題解答：
一。問：朱元璋為回回，明正史為什麽沒有記載?
答：按回民傳說，朱元璋稱帝後，諱言自己為回回，沒有公開宣布自己的宗教信仰，“因言回民，不足以號召廣大漢族民眾也。”(薛文波《明代與回民之關係》)。而阿裏·阿克巴爾在《中國紀行》中說：“從皇帝的某些行為看，他已轉變成信奉伊斯蘭教了，然而由於害怕喪失權力，他不能對此公開宣布。這是因為他的國家風俗和法規所決定的。”阿裏·阿克巴爾的分析看法與回民的傳說基本上是一致的。但是，他說，中國皇帝“已轉變成信奉伊斯蘭教了”。這一點與史實不符。明朝皇帝不是“轉變成信奉伊斯蘭教了”，而是他的家族原來就是信奉伊斯蘭教的回回。如果沒有這個家族傳統信仰的基因。在儒、佛、道思想文化根深蒂固的中國，一個對伊斯蘭教並無淵源，且十分陌生的漢族封建皇帝改信伊斯蘭教的可能性幾乎是沒有的。

二。問：明太祖壓抑來華的西域穆斯林蒲壽庚後裔。蒲壽庚在宋時任泉州提舉市舶，蒙古軍南下時，蒲降元。明太祖對蒲壽庚的叛宋降元極為不滿，對於蒲後裔頗為壓抑。《閩書》載：“皇朝太祖禁蒲姓者不得讀書入仕。”《宋元通鑒》載：“我太祖皇帝禁泉州蒲壽庚、孫勝夫之子不得齒於士，蓋治其先世導元傾宋之罪，故禁夷之也。”《日知錄》載：“明太祖有天下，治宋末蒲壽庚、黃萬石子孫不得仕宦。”
答：關於明太祖壓抑蒲壽庚後裔，其因是蒲氏的叛宋降元，這是出於政治的分歧，並非因為蒲氏是穆斯林。曆史上和現今，由於政治觀點不同，同室操戈者大有人在。

三。問：朱元璋在起義前曾在皇覺寺當過“和尚”。《明史》卷一載：“太祖孤無所依，乃入皇覺寺為僧。”
答：關於朱元璋在起義前入皇覺寺為僧，乃是在清真寺念經做“海裏凡”

四。問：朱元璋漢族觀念極深，起義初，以種族革命一“驅逐胡虜，恢複中華”號召天下，目的是推翻元蒙，恢複漢族江山。因元代漢族備受壓迫，握有權勢者首為蒙古人，次為色目人。因此，明太祖疾恨蒙古人、色目人等外族，並采取種種壓抑措施。
答：朱元璋要在漢族占絕大多數的中國建立帝業，如不依靠漢族，就很難來維持當時的局麵。元末明初的回回與唐宋、元初有所不同。這時的回回，除保持伊斯蘭教基本信仰外，已吸收了漢族的不少傳統文化，接受了漢語、漢姓；在服飾、生活習慣上與漢族略有不同，已開始中國化了，而且，朱元璋的主要革命目標是推翻蒙古人的統治。因此，他的口號“驅逐胡虜，恢複中華”及“凡蒙古人、色目人，聽與中國人為婚姻”的提法與他的身份並不矛盾，是符合情況的。

五。問：明太祖吳元年(1367年)諭檄北中國曰：“自古帝王臨禦天下，中國居內，以割夷狄；夷狄居外，以奉中國。未聞以夷狄居中國治天下者也……古雲：胡虜無百年之運，驗之今日，信乎不謬。當此之時，天運循環，中原氣盛億兆之中，當降生聖人，驅逐胡虜，恢複中華，立綱陳紀，救濟斯民。”(《皇明通紀》卷二)。“明太祖的漢族觀念從中可見一般。”
答：1, 4

六。問：明太祖禁止蒙古人、色目人自相嫁娶，而迫使他們與中國人(漢人)通婚，是歧視、同化包括回回在內的外族。《明律》卷六載：“凡蒙古人、色目人，聽與中國人(漢人)為婚姻，不許本類自相嫁娶。違者杖八十，男女入官為奴。”
答：關於明太祖禁止蒙古人、色目人自相嫁娶，聽與中國人(漢人)為婚姻一事，馬明道先生認為：從表麵看，此禁令意在同化回族、蒙古族，實則回化漢族。明太祖是十分了解伊斯蘭教法的，知道伊斯蘭教禁止穆斯林與非穆斯林通婚，除非改奉伊斯蘭教，而蒙古人並無這種嚴格的規定。明太祖提倡回漢通婚，其深層用意在於擴大回族人數，發展伊斯蘭教。

七。問：政治人物的出身並不重要，關鍵是他代表的利益集團。就算朱是回回。So What？ 不知lz想說明什麽問題？
答：就算朱是回回？朱是回回已經早有專著和曆史文獻發表了. 而我們為什麽對此回避？發現朱是回回是曆史愛好者的興奮點哦. 另外麽, 看看樓下有多少個誣蔑清朝捧明朝的帖子. 證明朱是回回, 是對哪些搞狹義民族主義者的最沉重的打擊嘍.

八。問：明朝皇宮禦膳房裏不乏豬肉吧
答：明朝皇宮禦膳房裏是不乏豬肉，但那個豬肉是給皇帝吃的麽？見上文的朱元璋的午餐
菜譜。下麵還有垛子羊肉和朱元璋的故事，還有明史的記載。明史的記載中，除了
有豬肉外，每次還有羊肉。這裏明人筆記中發現的那張菜單，是最有說服力的。因
為，無論是那一部正史，都有修史的官方或者參預修史人的主觀因素在裏麵。而明
人筆記，或者其他私人筆記則不然，比如一個當年地主的日記支持張獻忠的屠殺四
川人等等。
1。見明太祖朱元璋的午餐菜譜.
2。垛子羊肉合了朱元璋的口味
　　關於明朝皇帝朱元璋，有史料記載和很多的有趣傳說，他是一個很有傳奇色彩的帝王，人們提起他來，都能說出一兩段關於他的故事來。
　　據民間傳說，朱元璋的妻子馬娘娘是回民，朝中的文武官員也以回民居多。可朱元璋是不是回民在史料中沒有記載，傳說故事中也沒有提到這一點。但回民一直都說朱元璋是“老俵”。
　　基於朱元璋可能是回民的說法，就有傳說稱，明朝宮廷裏的膳食都是清真的。據說，皇帝朱元璋最喜歡吃羊肉，一天至少要吃上一次。宮廷裏有一幫禦廚專門為他做羊肉，這些禦廚都是從全國各地挑選來的，做羊肉人人都有一套，有的蒸羊肉在行，有的炒羊肉有獨到之處，還有的燉羊肉湯是一絕，朱元璋每天可以吃到不同花樣的羊肉。然而時間久了，這幫禦廚們也不免“江郎才盡”，再也做不出新鮮的口味，難免讓朱元璋失望。看到皇上吃羊肉沒有了興趣，禦廚們誠惶誠恐，生怕有一天朱元璋怪罪下來，他們會受到責罰。
　　在眾多的禦廚中，有個姓關的中年男子，他本不會做羊肉，是專門炒菜的。當他得知皇上吃膩了“同事”們做的羊肉時，私下裏動了心思，悄悄研究起羊肉的新做法來。關姓男子是回民，家是寧陵縣城東關的。在他老家，人們有用大鍋煮羊肉的習慣，煮出的羊肉味道很好。他沒事的時候，便煮了一隻羊，配上各種作料，熟後取出冷涼，把骨頭全部剔除，對著一堆肥肥瘦瘦的羊肉，他苦思冥想，尋求一種獨特的做法。幾天後，他腦子中忽然靈光一閃，他把這堆羊肉用粗木棒擠壓成厚厚的一坨。之後，他用刀切下薄薄的一片，一嚐，竟有一種特別的味道。他大喜過望，又反複試驗了幾次，並找人幫忙把羊肉擠壓得更結實些。一次，朱元璋用膳的時候，對著麵前的羊肉絲毫沒有動筷的欲望，他瞅準這個時機，把用燒餅夾著擠壓過後的羊肉片呈到朱元璋麵前。朱元璋疑惑地咬了一口，細細咀嚼之後，龍顏大悅，讚不絕口，問是什麽東西，關禦廚把做法詳細一說，朱元璋直誇他有心，當即決定讓其專為他做此種羊肉。
　　關禦廚為皇上做了10多年的羊肉，中間他不斷改進，增減作料，使味道越來越地道，也因此屢屢得到朱元璋的獎賞。到了50多歲的時候，他告老還鄉，回到了寧陵縣東關老家。閑來無事，他便給家人和親友做成坨的羊肉吃，大家吃後齊聲叫好，問這羊肉叫啥名字。這一問還真讓關禦廚答不上來了，這麽多年他一直都沒給自己做的羊肉起個名字。他略一思索，道：“既然是把羊肉垛起來吃的，就叫它垛子羊肉吧！”
3。明史-誌第二十三-禮一
牲牢三等：曰犢，曰羊，曰豕。色尚騂，或黝。大祀，入滌九旬；中祀，三旬；
小祀，一旬。大祀前一月之朔，躬詣犧牲所視牲，每日大臣一人往視。洪武二年，
帝以祭祀省牲，去神壇甚邇，於人心未安，乃定省牲之儀，去神壇二百步。七年定
製，大祀，皇帝躬省牲；中祀、小祀，遣官。嘉靖十一年更定，冬、夏至，祈穀，
俱祭前五日親視，後俱遣大臣。圜丘，蒼犢；方丘，黃犢；配位，各純犢。洪武七
年，增設圜丘配位。星辰，牛一，羊豕三。太歲，牛羊豕一。風雲雷雨、天下神祇，
羊豕各五。方丘配位，天下山川，牛一，羊豕各三。太廟禘，正配皆太牢，祫皆太
牢。時享每廟犢羊豕各一。親王配位，洪武三年定，共牛羊豕一。二十一年更定，
每壇犢羊豕各一。功臣配位，洪武二年定，每位羊豕體各一。二十一年更定，每壇
羊豕一。太社稷，犢羊豕各一，配位同。府州縣社稷，正配位，共羊一、豕一。洪
武七年增設，各羊一、豕一。朝日、夕月，犢羊豕各一。先農與太社稷同。神祇，
洪武二年定，羊六、豕六。二十一年更定，每壇犢羊豕各一。嘉靖十年，天神左，
地祇右，各牲五。星辰，每壇羊一、豕一。帝王，每室犢羊豕各一。配位，每壇羊
豕各一。先師如帝王，四配如配位，十哲東西各豕一分五，兩廡東西各豕一，後增
為三。府州縣學先師，羊一、豕一。四配。共羊一、豕一，解為四體。十哲東西各
豕一，解為五體。兩廡豕一，解為百八分。旗纛，洪武九年定犢羊豕，永樂後，去
犢。王國及衛所同。五祀馬神俱用羊豕。
4。明史-誌第二十七-禮五
○薦新
洪武元年，定太廟月朔薦新儀物：正月，韭、薺、生菜、雞子、鴨子。二月，
水芹、蔞蒿、台菜、子鵝。三月，茶、筍、鯉魚、鮆魚。四月，櫻桃、梅、杏、鰣
魚、雉。五月，新麥、王瓜、桃、李、來禽、嫩雞。六月，西瓜、甜瓜、蓮子、冬
瓜。七月，菱、梨、紅棗、蒲萄。八月，芡、新米、藕、茭白、薑、鱖魚。九月，
小紅豆、栗、柿、橙、蟹、鯿魚。十月，木瓜、柑、橘、蘆菔、兔、雁。十一月，
蕎麥、甘蔗、天鵝、鶿老?、鹿。十二月，芥菜、菠菜、白魚、鯽魚。其禮皆天子
躬行。未幾，以屬太常。二年詔，凡時物，太常先薦宗廟，然後進禦。三年，定朔
日薦新，各廟共羊一、豕一、籩豆八、簠簋登鉶各二、酒尊三，及常饌鵝羹飯。太
常卿及與祭官法服行禮。望祭，止常饌鵝羹飯，常服行禮。又有獻新之儀，凡四方
別進新物，在月薦外者，太常卿與內使監官常服獻於太廟。不行禮。其後朔望祭祀，
及薦新、獻新，俱於奉先殿。
(注：豕：豬; 犢：小牛)
九。問：一個虔誠的回民，不會用豬肉來祭祀他的祖先，而朱元璋都做了
答：什麽叫政治？什麽叫政客？為了權力，李世民把東宮太子李建成殺了，武則天
把她兒子宰了。 為了權力，崇拜豬有那麽難以理解麽？如果你仔細看一下中國的曆
史，哪些“皇帝”有的可以說是流氓，“皇帝”的同夥甚至是流氓集團。
如果沒有唐太宗還會有貞觀之治嗎?
會的
我認為東宮太子李建成不會比李世民差
而通常認為不會的，是因為被加“色”的曆史誤導了
這裏加“色”的曆史有兩個：
1。李世民被誇大被神話
2。隋朝被貶低，以創造李世民的神話
1。李世民被神話了，李世民並沒有教科書上那麽偉大英明
李世民整治吏治，以興唐為業，他哥哥也可以做到
李世民並沒有教科書上那麽偉大英明，李世民晚年為求速效，發動了高句麗的戰爭。
實際上唐太宗早年的功勞有美化成分，他在位的後期大興士木、勞民傷財，當時政
府的財政狀況並不好。他晚期的作為是貞觀之治不能持續的主要原因。
李世民的私德也沒那麽完美，先是殺了自己的兄弟，後期也拒諫。李世民先淫了表
叔楊廣的妻子蕭氏和女兒楊氏，後淫了弟弟元吉的妻子楊氏，結果他晚年寵愛的才
人武氏和他兒子私通，在 他還沒死的時候就讓李世民當了烏龜。 唐朝的髒事多了，
不多說嘍，再說就跑題嘍。髒唐本身說明了唐朝並非那麽尊重儒家的，這也許和唐
朝的鮮卑血統有關。
2。隋朝的科舉製度為李世民的選用賢才創造了基礎，隋朝建東都，開發的大運河是
貞觀之治形成的重要原因。隋煬帝很有才能的，是一位有成就的詩人、獨具風格

-----------

Emperor Zhu Yuan Zhang, with forieghn looks ( SeMuRen?)

 

Briaef history of Muslim in China.
Golden era of Muslim in China is in MIng Dynasty.
Because of the emperor himself is Muslim

1。糾正一個概念，回紇不完全等於回族，其中少部份成了後來的回族。有人把回紇（Huihe）當成唐朝（618-907）的一個郡，這是錯誤的，回紇是和唐朝並列的一個國家，回紇，吐番並不屬於唐朝，隻是通過和親等，曾經和唐朝有過友好關係，但那也是暫時的，後來吐番還攻入唐朝的首都長安。
2。和唐朝（618-907）並列的回紇不完全等於回族，回紇或者又叫作回鶻，其中少部份成了後來的回族。除了回紇外，回族還起源於唐宋時期的西北“大食”。回族是因信奉伊斯蘭教而形成的一個新的民族，不像其他民族之間那樣在著血緣基因上的區別。 公元651年伊斯蘭教才正式傳入中國的，當時信奉此教的人不多，所以，回紇人不都是回回，信奉伊斯蘭教的才是回回。
3。唐宋時期，我國隻是有了回回之稱呼，回族主要來源是在元朝（1206-1368）的13世紀初葉，大量被迫遷來中國的中亞人、波斯人和阿拉伯人。後來不斷同漢族人、維吾爾人、蒙古人融合，逐漸形成了回回民族。在元朝（1206-1368），回回人數眾多，遍布全國各地，在農、工、商、學、兵等各階層都形成了一定的社會力量。他們不僅在經濟、政治上，而且在學術上都有了立足的基礎和自下而上的條件，這就是形成民族共同體的前提條件。他們雖然社會地位、職業身份、成就影響各不相同，但卻有一個共同的特點：伊斯蘭教徒。
4。現在已經由多位學者證明，明朝（1368-1644）的皇帝是回族穆斯林。明朝是回族穆斯林發展最快速的時期。
5。回族稱呼的來源：從651年伊斯蘭教傳入中國，大批穆斯林商人陸續由海路來華，在廣州、西安等城市定居，建築了中國最早的一批禮拜寺，當時他們被稱為蕃客或土生蕃客，至元代被稱為回回蕃客或南蕃回回，成為回回人的一部分。回回一詞初見於北宋沈括《夢溪筆談》和南宋彭大雅《黑韃事略》中，主要指蔥嶺東、西處於喀喇汗朝統治下的回紇人。元代回回是對伊斯蘭教信仰者的通稱。明代稱伊斯蘭教為回教，稱其教徒為回回人。清至民國年間凡信仰伊斯蘭教的民族統稱回或回回。中華人民共和國建立後，各民族確定了自己的族稱，回回成為回族的通俗稱呼。

More argument about why ZhuYUanZhang is muslim.
九。問：龍興寺：龍興寺的前身是明太祖朱元璋幼年時削發為僧的皇覺寺，原在鳳陽縣西南6公裏處，後廢於戰火。朱元璋當皇帝後，想起少年為家的皇覺寺，便在日精峰下重建，並改為今名，又親撰《龍興寺碑》文。龍興寺由中都名材營建，雕刻精細，規製宏壯，等級甚高。《大明洪武實錄》載："（龍興寺）佛殿、法堂、僧舍之屬凡三百八十一間"。寺內原藏有朱元璋畫像、鐵像以及銅鑊、鑄有銘文的鐵磐。明清兩代名人詩詞題刻琳琅滿目，嵌於東西兩廊。龍興寺自興建至今已600多年，現尚存有殿閣20餘間。"龍興古刹"牌坊、"皆大歡喜"牌額、明鑄大銅鑊、銅鍾、明萬曆詩碑以及僧侶做齋飯用的四隻銅鍋等文物，至今完好無損。http://www.dnabomb.blogchina.com/ 這個鏈接說明了龍興寺是個佛寺，而且是朱元璋主持修建的
答：注意，主文說的是皇覺寺，而不是重建的龍興寺。皇覺寺廢於戰火，朱元璋當皇帝後，在日精峰下重建。至於重建的龍興寺是什麽性質的寺廟不重要了，而龍興寺碑是在朱元璋當皇帝後寫的，為了掩蓋朱元璋的曆史，任何改變都是可以理解的，也就是說，龍興寺是什麽性質的不重要，重要的是皇覺寺坐西朝東，且建築形式與清真寺雷同。

十。問：江蘇鎮江的金山寺其廟門也是朝西的，但金山寺是一地地道道的中國傳統宗教寺廟，大同華嚴寺，門也是向東的。承德外八廟中的安遠廟、普樂寺，是座東朝西的，難道這些寺廟都是清真寺？明擺著不是
答：文中提到的特列都有可以解釋的特殊原因。
1。金山寺是因為要正對江流，才大門西開。
http://www.enweiculture.com/Culture/dsptex...017020205060012.
htm
2。安遠廟是因為要團結邊疆各少數民族而建。安複安遠廟建於乾隆二十九年（1764年），其建築形式是仿新疆伊犁河畔的“固爾紮廟”，又稱“伊犁廟”。乾隆二十二年（1757年），由於當時阿睦爾撒納的叛亂，達什達瓦寡妻衝破阻撓，曆盡千辛萬苦，舉部投歸清政府。乾隆皇帝為了安撫達什達瓦部落，將他們遷徙到承德定居，並在駐地山岡上建安遠廟，寓意安定遠方，團結邊疆各民族，鞏固北部邊防，維護國家統一。安遠廟落成後，不僅成為達什達瓦部眾進行宗教活動的場所，也是清王朝用來團結邊疆各少數民族的政治活動場所。 安遠廟占地26,000平方米，其建築布局整齊對稱，中軸線分明，以山門，碑亭，普渡殿，後山門為主體建築，進入山門，有一片空地，是當年達什達瓦部眾舉行“跳步踏”的場所。主殿普渡殿，殿頂全部覆蓋黑色琉璃瓦，形式獨特，具有蒙古喇嘛寺廟中傳統的都綱（講經堂）法式，布局嚴整。
http://www.chinayat.com/main/wsay/cd/WBM2.HTM
3。上華嚴寺是因為當年契丹族“信鬼拜日”的特殊習尚。 契丹族特別崇拜太陽，把太陽當作神，作為民族的圖騰。在他們的眼裏，草原是太陽給的，鮮花是太陽給的，牛羊是太陽給的，一切都與太陽有關。所以每天早晨都要朝拜太陽，一些宗教禮拜活動也必須朝著太陽，連自己任的帳篷和房屋、宮殿都朝東修建，門窗也朝東開著。修建寺廟自然也不敢違背了這一習俗，所以上下華嚴寺的廟門朝東開了近千年。
http://www.ct927.com/web/show_07.asp?cansu_id=990&id=752
4。普樂寺是為了西北各少數民族。 普樂寺建於乾隆三十一年（1766年）， 占地麵積24,000平方米，建築布局和形式分前後兩部分：前半部采用漢族寺廟傳統的“伽藍七堂”形式布局；後半部主體建築“旭光閣”是仿北京天壇的祁年殿。 　　普樂寺的修建主要是供來避暑山莊朝覲清帝的哈薩克、維吾爾、柯爾克孜等西北各少數民族王公貴族瞻禮之用，是清朝政府利用宗教政策團結邊疆少數民族，加強其封建統治的活動場所。乾隆皇帝題名“普樂”則是采用範仲淹《嶽陽樓記》中的名句，有“普天同樂”之意。
http://www.chinayat.com/main/wsay/cd/WBM1.HTM

十一。問：一個虔誠的回民，不會用豬肉來祭祀他的祖先，而朱元璋做了
答：什麽叫政治？什麽叫政客？為了權力，李世民把東宮太子李建成殺了，武則天把她兒子宰了。 為了權力，用豬肉來祭祀他的祖先，有那麽難以理解麽？如果你仔細看一下中國的曆史，哪些“皇帝”有的可以說是流氓頭子，“皇帝”的同夥甚至是流氓集團。舉個例子，孫文今天從日本哪裏弄點錢，明天又向俄國或者西方什麽國家拉點讚助，之後在中國收買一些黑幫，就變成了“革命事業”，奪權了，再把一些黑幫一腳踢開，理由是黑幫的革命覺悟不高。孫文甚至把各界捐獻的錢財私自卷走。

十二。問：朱元璋的父母死後“殯無棺槨”，並非出自回回的習俗，而是由於當時朱家太窮，窮得連墳地都沒有，更不要說置辦棺槨衣衾的銀兩鈔幣了。幸得鄰居劉繼祖給了一塊墳地，朱元璋和二哥、大嫂才得以為雙親換上洗幹淨的破舊衣服，將他們草草埋葬。朱元璋稱帝後，為他們修建高大壯觀的皇陵，在《皇陵碑》中還無限悲傷地寫道：“殯無棺槨，被體惡裳，浮掩三尺，奠何肴□漿！”（《高皇帝禦製文集》卷14）此外，明朝的陵墓，從江蘇盱眙的祖陵、安徽鳳陽的皇陵到江蘇南京的孝陵和東陵、北京的十三陵和景泰陵、湖北鍾祥的顯陵，碑刻都隻有漢文而沒有阿拉伯文字，雕飾也都是傳統的漢族風格而非伊斯蘭風格，陵製也都是在唐宋陵寢製度的基礎上發展而成的，與伊斯蘭風格的回族墳墓迥然有別。
答：朱元璋稱帝後寫的碑文不足信。因言回民，不足以號召廣大漢族民眾。由於害怕喪失權力，他不能對此公開宣布。這是因為他的國家風俗和法規所決定的。

十三。問：朱元璋原來信奉明教,是明教五散人中彭螢玉的徒弟.而明教由波斯傳入,實際上就是拜火教.崇拜聖火.而並非伊斯蘭教.明教教徒原來也不吃豬肉,後來在教主張無忌倡議取消了此種禁忌.同時還發明了月餅.後來張無忌離開明教,朱元璋害死小明王韓林兒和光明左史楊蕭當了教主,後來登基為皇帝仍然以"明"為國號。幸虧是朱元璋贏了,如果是丐幫出身的陳友諒當了皇帝,中國就要以"丐"為國號了，全國人民每人發一個碗一個打狗棒。
答：朱元璋實質上不屬於明教，小說之言而已。隻是亂事中身不由己地投入造反大潮中的百萬之眾中的一員而已。
　　 凡讀過金庸《倚天屠龍記》者都熟悉高手雲集的詭異邪派明教，小說中把明教寫成元末的紅巾大起義的發起和組織者，當時的一些真實的風雲人物，像韓山童、彭瑩玉、郭子興、陳友諒、朱元璋等，在書中均被列入了明教信徒行列。到最後，善良而懦弱的教主張無忌因被人誤解而主動攜美歸隱，方使得朱元璋“篡奪”了大權。朱元璋執政後，國號稱“明”，亦有不敢忘本之意，又或者是怕激怒武功絕頂的張無忌，被屠龍刀取了首級，嗬嗬。
　　 明教，即為曆史上源於波斯，曾經流行一時的摩尼教。據白壽彝主編的《中國通史》，“摩尼教是在唐代傳入中國的，安史之亂後傳入漠北回鶻汗國。回鶻因協助平亂有功，成為內地摩尼教的保護者。公元840年回鶻西遷以後，回鶻人把摩尼教帶入今吐魯番一帶地區。內地的摩尼教雖遭唐政府禁斷，但並未絕滅，主要在東南沿海一帶的民間流傳。因為摩尼教崇拜光明，所以又稱為明教。”（第十三冊，第四節）。從此以後，明教成為了秘密的民間宗教。五代時陳州摩尼教徒曾聚徒起義，北宋的方□起義也屬明教教徒的組織策動。
　　 元末的紅巾起義最初源於“白蓮會燒香惑眾”，從元到清，白蓮教“或充醫卜，或充貿易，遍曆各村，親去傳徒”，是最為普及和活躍的民間宗教組織。《明史 列傳10》載：“元末，林兒父山童鼓妖言，謂“天下當大亂，彌勒佛下生”。河南、江、淮間愚民多信之。鞽州人劉福通與其黨杜遵道、羅文素、盛文鬱等複言“山童，宋徽宗八世孫，當主中國”。乃殺白馬黑牛，誓告天地，謀起兵，以紅巾為號。”這裏麵有兩個值得注意之處，一是造反的宗旨（也可以理解為策略），乃是“複宋”。後來劉福通扶持韓林兒即帝，國號也是“宋”。二是白蓮教的佛教性質，蓮花和彌勒佛都屬於佛教中的象征物和人物，“明王出世”的宣傳，韓林兒的“小明王“稱號和“大明”國號均可用相關佛教經典解釋，應該是出自白蓮教教義。後來的白蓮教首領唐賽兒，則更直截了當的稱“佛母”。
　　 白蓮教的教義和明教有很多相似之處，“據白蓮教的解釋，世界上存在著兩種叫做明暗“兩宗”相互鬥爭的勢力，明就是光明，代表善良和真理；暗就是黑暗，代表罪惡與不合理。這兩方麵，過去、現在和將來都在不斷地進行鬥爭。彌勒佛降世後，光明就最終戰勝黑暗。”（TOM網曆史資料庫：《白蓮教的曆史淵源》）而這所謂“兩宗三際”說（兩宗即明暗，三際為青陽、弘陽、白陽），恰恰又是明教的基本教義，隻不過抽象的“光明之父“被實體化了的彌勒佛所替代。此外，白蓮教教徒日常要求禮拜，“教首常於夜間聚眾拜燈，念靈文。”也非常接近明教儀式。是明教為圖生存而攀附佛道，還是白蓮教借鑒了明教的教義？有待業內行家進一步深入考證。元末明初之際，明教也並非衰弱到了毫無號召力的程度。據白壽彝主編的《中國通史》載：“溫州也是一處摩尼教徒集中的地方。那裏有一所“潛光院”，是一所明教寺院。元末陳高曾經提到它，並指出“甌閩人多奉”明教，教徒們“齋戒持頗嚴謹。日一食，晝夜七持誦膜拜”。有一些知識分子學習明教經典，隱居於此。”這說明當時至少在東南各地的民間，明教仍然具有一定的影響。
　　 此外，當時還有一派與白蓮教相呼應，名為彌勒教的秘密民間組織，也就是縱橫兩湖的紅巾徐壽輝、彭瑩玉部，其教義也大體類似。基本可以說，三教教義有眾多共同點，元末大暴動與此三教均密切相關。黎東方的《細說明朝》一書也說：““這個革命團體的真正名稱是什麽，今已難考。在外表上，它隻是半公開的─種宗教．有時候被稱為“明教”，有時候被稱為“白蓮教”，有時候被稱為“彌勒教”。它的主要的口號是：“彌勒佛下凡轉世，作人間的‘明王”。它的主要的戒律與活動，是燒香、點燈、吃素、做禮拜。”
　　 元至正十一年五月，“明王”韓山童遇害，劉福通起兵造反，次年春二月，郭子興與孫德崖等在濠州響應，朱元璋就在那個時候投奔過去的。其時天下大亂，元王朝搖搖欲墜，崩潰在即，割據之勢已成。在這個強豪們招兵買馬，東征西討的當口上，無需再用宗教去收買人心或建立組織，料不會有太多弘揚教義的心思，也不會有太多舉辦禮拜、念咒文，燒香點燈等等宗教儀式的空閑。所以說，本質而言，朱元璋不屬於白蓮教或者明教教徒，他隻是為時代推動，身不由己地投入造反大潮中的百萬之眾中的一員罷了。
　　 當然，朱元璋又不僅僅是普通的一員。從元至正十一年三月投軍，到二十四年正月進吳王位，十三年的時間，朱元璋征服群雄，消滅了勢力最為強大的陳友諒，並屢破張士誠，江南半壁大半已入掌中，帝王之相成型。統一江山，南麵稱尊唯待時日而已。明這一國號如有些人猜測的那樣含有宗教紀念的意味，可能性則不大。因為建國後，朱元璋於洪武三年即下旨禁“左道”，明教與白蓮教同被禁止。 盡管最初朱元璋奉行“緩稱王”的韜諱政策，在元至正二十四年以前，一直尊奉韓林兒的“宋”朝，北麵為臣。但公允的說，名分雖為君臣，實際更像是相互呼應的同盟，朱元璋與韓宋政權在政治、軍事、人事上均無行政方麵的關係，畢竟逐鹿天下靠的是智慧和實力。朱元璋的江山是他憑多年的奮鬥和卓越的政治軍事能力打下來的，與其曾經的隸屬，以及無論是否遵從過白蓮教還是明教的教義無關。白蓮教或明教僅僅是為其提供了一個創造從一無所有到至尊無上的“帝王本無種”傳奇的舞台而已，如《明史》所言，“帝王之興，必有先驅者資之以成其業。”

十四。問：民國時的風雲人物寧夏馬氏家族、白崇禧等，都是回民，堅定的*****，但他們還有一個共同點：反對“回族”這一說法。在他們看來，回民隻是漢族中信仰伊斯蘭教的一支，其差別相當於客家人和北方人的差別。且回民大量散居城鎮（如河南不少縣城都叫“城關回族鎮”就可見一斑），早已同化。但回族最後仍被識別為一個單獨民族。這一情況可與南斯拉夫類比：波黑*****實際上也是塞爾維亞人信仰伊斯蘭教的一支，但鐵托身為一個克羅地亞人，為防範大塞爾維亞主義，將之單獨劃分為一個民族。結果南斯拉失分裂後，波黑*****與塞爾維亞人這兩個本是同民族的“不同民族”，進行了血腥的種族仇殺，由此可見人為分割民族的極端危害性。
答：我的文中已經說明，元朝就有了回回這個民族，中國現在也有回族，這些政客出於什麽心裏和目的否認回族的存在，我不想猜測。但是，公元651年伊斯蘭教正式傳入中國，回族在中國唐宋時期的發生和發展，元朝時期形成，明朝時期發展到最高峰，這些曆史，是那些政客所否定或者改變不了的。

十五。問：皇帝性朱或者屬豬，所以才不吃豬肉，禁豬
答：這是無聊的詭辯，中國曆史上性朱的皇帝也有，性朱的大學者和百姓更多，為什麽沒有因為性朱或者屬豬而殺人或者禁豬的或者不吃豬肉的？

十六。周有光和陳梧桐的辯論，至少給個原文啊。
答： 引言回複:
著名語言學家周有光一語激起千層浪———

認為朱元璋是回族人的學者，主要有三個方麵的原因，這三個原因是否站得住腳？

陳梧桐先生認為，目前一些認定朱元璋是回族的論說都是站不住腳的。

第一，有人認為朱元璋相貌像是回族。據了解，流傳至今的朱元璋畫像有多種不同的版本，這些畫像大體上可以分為兩種。一種是相貌端正，和藹慈祥，那是經過藝術加工的皇家標準像，與真實的相貌並不相符。另一種比較接近真實的畫像，則迥異於一般的漢人。不過，依據相貌特點來確定族屬，有失草率。陳先生說：“古今中外，任何民族都有長相奇特的人，誰又能說出哪種相貌肯定是哪個民族的人呢！”
第二，有人提出，朱元璋的原配夫人馬皇後姓馬，馬姓是回族的姓，與回女結婚也就成了回民。陳先生認為，僅憑一個馬姓是無法判定馬皇後是回民的，因為漢族也有馬姓，而且其曆史遠比回族的馬姓更為久遠，漢代漢族的馬姓之中就已湧現出馬援、馬融等著名的曆史人物了。
第三，有人列舉，朱元璋後世子孫是回族的一些“論據”，認為可以作為朱元璋是回族的旁證。比如有人說，建文帝（朱元璋孫子，明朝第二代皇帝）在燕軍攻入南京後出走，是赴天方（麥加）伊斯蘭教聖地朝覲，這可以表明他是回族。然而，建文帝南京城破之時，究竟是死於宮中大火，還是逃亡在外，是樁曆史疑案，至今未有定論。

建文帝出走至天方朝覲和明武宗的禁豬令是否和朱元璋是回族有關？

陳先生表示，記述建文“行蹤”的野史筆記，大多隻說他是剃發為僧、浪跡江湖或隱居山林，卻未見有遠赴天方朝覲的記載。有一個說法認為，鄭和下西洋是為尋找建文帝，在他第四次下西洋時也的確到過天方。但鄭和前後七下西洋到達的地區廣大，並非隻到過天方一地。而且也未見史籍記載他在那裏聽到或見到建文帝曾到達此地的蹤跡，怎能斷定建文帝出走是至天方朝覲呢？

還有人以明武宗正德十四年（1519年）南行途中，曾於十二月間在儀真（今江蘇儀征）下令禁豬，在該縣行祭祀孔子禮時，也不供豬頭而供羊頭，來表明他是信奉伊斯蘭教，遵守禁食豬肉教規的回族。

陳先生指出，得出這種結論是因為對史實不了解造成的。明武宗的禁豬令講得非常清楚，他之所以禁豬是因為他本人屬豬，又姓朱，與其宗教信仰沒有任何關係。禁豬令一出，當時南直隸、山東等地的村市居民被迫宰殺所養的豬，連小豬也都埋掉，明武宗在儀真祭孔時，無豬可用，隻得用羊頭替代豬頭來供奉孔老夫子。明武宗本人既不信奉伊斯蘭教，也不忌食豬肉，有明一代，宮廷禦膳，就從未斷過豬肉。據《大明會典》的記載，負責置辦禦膳的光祿寺，每年所用牲口數達30100頭，其中就有豬18900頭。
有大量史料證明，朱元璋是地地道道的漢族人。

陳先生介紹，在朱元璋親撰的《朱氏世德碑》、《皇陵碑》以及各種詔敕詩文和各種文獻史籍中，都未見到朱元璋本人或者他的前輩、後裔信奉伊斯蘭教的記載，卻有大量崇信佛、道的記載。

登基稱帝後，朱元璋不僅大力提倡尊朱（編者注：朱熹）崇儒，還大力扶植佛教和道教。他不僅耗費大量財力、人力和物力，修繕靈穀寺、天界寺、天禧寺等許多佛教寺院，還修複、重建朝天宮等一批道教宮觀。他還撥給寺院、宮觀大量田土，免除其稅糧和差役。

陳先生指出，雖然，朱元璋在尊崇佛、道的同時，也在南京、西安以及西北、閩粵等地敕建過一些清真寺，並禦書《至聖百字讚》，稱頌伊斯蘭教有“協助天運，保庇國民”之功用。但是，這是出於他的“因俗而治”的民族政策的需要。

此外，明朝的陵墓，不論是江蘇盱眙的祖陵、安徽鳳陽的皇陵、江蘇南京的孝陵和東陵，還是北京的十三陵和景泰陵，所有的碑刻都隻有漢文而沒有阿拉伯文字，雕飾也全是傳統的漢族風格而非伊斯蘭風格，陵製也全都是在唐宋陵寢製度的基礎上發展而成的，與伊斯蘭風格的回族墳墓迥然有別。所有這些，無不證明朱元璋是漢族人而非回族。

朱元璋打出“恢複中華”的旗號，聲言要“複漢官之威儀”，這也說明他是漢族人。

陳先生認為，最能說明朱元璋的民族成分史料，來自1367年10月他命令將領北伐時所發布的《諭中原檄》。檄文中提出了“驅逐胡虜，恢複中華，立綱陳紀，救濟斯民”的鬥爭口號。而從史料來看，朱元璋是將蒙古人和包括回族在內的色目人都蔑稱為“胡虜”，同列為驅逐對象的，隻有認同中原文化、歸附於他的，才能“永安於中華”，這確鑿地說明他不是回民，否則，豈不是自己驅逐自己？此外，他還打出“恢複中華”的旗號，聲言要“複漢官之威儀”，這也說明他是漢族人，否則，豈不是成了為他人做嫁衣裳？

陳先生說，正由於朱元璋是漢族人，作為最高的封建統治者，他仍未能擺脫曆代漢族統治者的“內諸夏而外夷狄”的大漢族主義思想的束縛，認為“非我族類，其心必異”，對少數民族采取了種種限製的措施。
洪武元年二月，朱元璋下詔恢複唐式衣冠，即禁止“胡服、胡語、胡姓”。許多蒙古、色目人入仕之後，紛紛改用漢姓漢名。朱元璋還禁止蒙古、色目人在本民族內部自相嫁娶，《大明律》明確規定：“凡蒙古、色目人，聽與中國人（指漢族）為婚姻，務要兩相情願，不許本類自相嫁娶。違者，杖八十，男女入官為奴。其中國人不願與回回、欽察為婚姻者，聽從本類自相嫁娶，不在禁限。”

明太祖朱元璋是回族人？聽到這個與傳統觀點大相徑庭的說法，你也許會大吃一驚。

今年1月22日，《中華讀書報》發表了一篇名為《百歲老人周有光答客問》的文章，文中，著名語言學家周有光先生說有新的考證“已經證明了”朱元璋不是漢族而是回族人。此論一出，如一石激起千層浪，引起了明史學界的關注。那麽，朱元璋到底是不是回族呢？

■專家簡介
陳梧桐
著名明史專家，中央民族大學教授，兼任中國明史學會理事、朱立璋研究會顧問。代表著作有《洪武皇帝大傳》、《朱元璋研究》、《黃河傳》等。（董毅然）

評論一下：
1。陳梧桐承認：朱元璋在南京、西安以及西北、閩粵等地敕建過一些清真寺，並禦書《至聖百字讚》，稱頌伊斯蘭教有“協助天運，保庇國民”之功用。但是，這是出於他的“因俗而治”的民族政策的需要。
而《至聖百字讚》在《明史》中沒有記載，清朝編輯《明史》的時候為什麽要這樣？見我的分析。
2。著名明史專家陳梧桐 的反駁可以說是軟弱無力 。因為他回避了他的台灣同行出版的曆史專著，回避了《中國紀行》，回避了裹屍埋葬這個回民習俗，，，

 

-------------
Q:   The truth is that the emperor of MIng was Muslim himself. He send muslim Zhenghe to found meicca,where is the sacred place for the Muslim. All his sailing routes is about muslim. Here is the picture I made. Although I wrote a paper in Chinese that evidence about the ZhuYuanZhang , the emperor of Ming, is Muslim himself. Sorry, do not have time to translate them into English now. Just post it.

A: I've heard the theory that Zhu Yuan Zhang is a Hui, however, the term Hui is very modern and artificial in that it is more religious than anything else. There are no clear evidence that any of the Ming emperors were Muslims, if so it would have been well documented. To argue that Yong Le sent out his ships because of his secret believe without letting it known to the official historians and mandarins is quite farfetched.

This post has been edited by warhead: Apr 10 2006, 05:29 PM 
  ---------   
 
I am just interested about when did such arguments really started, here is an article at least give me some clues that it is as early as the year 2004 or earlier.

不知天高地厚的“民間曆史學家”何其多
［ 作者：朱修栐 轉貼自：新語絲 點擊數：4282 更新時間：2/12/2004 文章錄入：admin ］

不知天高地厚的“民間曆史學家”何其多

朱修栐

　　我曾經寫過一篇文章《“民間曆史學家”又在胡說八道》，揭露吉林作協會員宮玉海對於中國古代地理名著《山海經》的誤讀和歪解，登在新語絲網站去年12月22日新到資料裏。當時那篇新華社記者采寫的新聞報道中，對宮玉海的介紹中有一項是“籌建中的中國《山海經》研究會會長”。巧的是，最近在網上又看到一篇“民間曆史學家”呂加平的《從明朝皇帝朱元璋不是漢人而是回民說起》，文章中胡說八道的本事又在宮玉海之上，而這位呂加平先生在文末的自我簡介中稱自己是“中國二戰史研究會會員”。我在網上查到了這個研究會的基本資料（http://www.cass.net.cn/chinese/s22_sls/org_web/group/zgdecdzsyjh.htm），資料中介紹說，這個研究會是“從事第二次世界大戰史的群眾性學術團體，由中國社會科學院主管，掛靠世界曆史研究所”，會長是武漢大學副校長胡德坤。一個由中國最高社會科學研究機構主管的研究會居然能夠接收像呂加平這樣的妄人入會，也可見中國的學術研究會腐敗問題之嚴重。我相信如果把類似的研究會都列出來，一個一個地調查其會員的“研究”文章，肯定還能揪出更多的南郭先生。

　　呂加平的《從》文認為明朝皇帝朱元璋不是漢人，而是回民，明朝不是漢族王朝，而是回族王朝，其曆史應該改寫和重釋。這個論點及其論據和宮玉海的“新說”一樣，是完全建立在根本性的錯誤之上的。如果真如作者所說，朱元璋是回民的話，明朝勢必會成為一個政教合一的伊斯蘭教國家，因為在伊斯蘭文明受到西方文明衝擊以前，所有的信仰伊斯蘭教的民族占統治地位的國家無一例外都是政教合一性質，明朝決不可能例外，而事實當然決非如此。伊斯蘭教是一神教，其“六信”中，信安拉就表示信仰安拉是唯一的神，這是伊斯蘭教的根本教義，但是明嘉靖皇帝卻迷信道教。穆斯林講究“五功”，即念功、禮功、齋功、課功和朝功，而從現存的明朝皇帝實錄中，完全看不到一絲一毫“五功”的影子。
伊斯蘭教嚴禁食豬肉，要求每個穆斯林取經名，過“三大節”（開齋節、宰牲節和聖紀），這些在明實錄中也完全沒有記載。相反，明朝僅在正德十四年（1519年）才因為正德帝屬豬，“豬”又和“朱”同音，“禁民間畜豬”，而這個荒唐的禁令也在正德帝死後被廢止。呂文也提到穆斯林入葬是不用棺材的，但明朝十六帝除了建文帝下落不明外，其他十五帝入葬都用了棺材。明朝皇帝的這些做法嚴重違反伊斯蘭教教義，再明顯不過地說明他們決不可能信仰伊斯蘭教。因此，呂文試圖通過明朝皇帝的一些習俗推斷他們是回民，完全沒有意義。

　　更何況，明朝皇帝一直稱自己是漢族，比如，稱明朝代替元朝為“複漢官之威儀”等等。在和各少數民族政權的對峙中，明政權更是鮮明地體現出漢族政權的特色。按《現代漢語辭典》，民族就是具有共同語言、共同地域、共同經濟生活以及表現於共同文化上的共同心理素質的人的共同體。因此，就算將來考證出朱元璋的祖先是信仰伊斯蘭教的阿拉伯人或波斯人（這正是回族的族源），從明朝皇帝接受和宣揚的文化來看，他們也隻能是漢族，而不是回族。

　　除了這種根本性錯誤之外，文中不顧事實的低級錯誤比比皆是。如說明初大殺功臣是怕漢人奪取政權，殊不知明初開國功臣中有許多回族人，如藍玉、胡大海、常遇春等，除常遇春病卒外，也都被屠殺殆盡，藍玉正是駭人聽聞的“藍案”的第一受害人。說明朝恢複殉葬製是體現了回族落後於漢族一麵，事實上伊斯蘭教教義中從無殉葬規定，呂文的這種說法是對伊斯蘭教的無理汙蔑，很容易傷害回族同胞的感情。說明代所有文藝作品中都不允許出現有關豬和吃豬肉的描寫，而眾所周知的豬八戒正是誕生於明中葉的四大名著之一《西遊記》的主人公。說《水滸傳》和《三國演義》是明末清初的作品，而連小學生都知道這兩部名著是元末明初的作品。特別是文章後半部分說什麽“兩千兩百年的中國封建社會曆史隻有一個由漢族當皇帝的漢人朝代”，顯示出作者根本不懂得民族學的基本常識。
文末專門寫了一節“給漢民族的啟發、思考與總結”，這種故意把漢族和其他中華民族對立起來的作法，更是一種不折不扣的種族主義，令人作嘔。

 

 

 

 

【附文】從明朝皇帝朱元璋不是漢人而是回民說起

呂加平
(2004年2月3日)見於呂加平個人網站（http://kk8259.w3.to
http://kk8259.5188.org）

一、明朝開國皇帝朱元璋和其家族原來是回人而不是漢人

　　不久前我從一位旅居國外的朋友處得知，中國明朝的開國皇帝朱元璋和其家族並不是漢族，而是回族。我聽後很感吃驚，因為在所有的中國曆史書中從來沒有提到朱元璋是回族人，說得比較多的倒是他出身貧苦，父母早亡，無錢埋葬，隻能用草席裹屍掩埋。他因饑寒交迫而流浪乞討，後來出家到一寺廟當了和尚才算有飯吃。元末農民大起義時他參加了起義軍，作戰勇敢雲雲。可是前幾天我去拜訪一位曾在中國伊斯蘭協會擔任過領導工作的老同誌問及此事時，這位老同誌也說朱元璋是回族人，裹屍埋葬這是回民習俗。而且朱元璋年輕時並沒有信過佛教，也沒有當過和尚，而是因為貧苦無著，曾到一個叫雪裏凡的回民清真寺裏混過飯吃。朱皇帝的老婆馬皇後也是回民，因為回族女人不裹足，所以人稱“馬大腳”。由於朱家皇族是回民，他們所信任重用的也都是些回族人。明成祖朱棣重用並令其七下南洋的太監鄭和本姓馬，也是回民，朱棣之所以要派鄭和七下南洋，其中重要原因之一是因為南洋即東南亞地區已是伊斯蘭教盛行的穆斯林天下，同信伊斯蘭教即中國人稱回回教的回民建文帝失敗後很可能跑到那裏混居其中隱匿起來，所以要派一位熟悉伊斯蘭教和回民風俗習慣的親信去那裏調查偵察，以利捕捉。這位老同誌說，關於朱元璋皇帝和其家族是回族的曆史事實，有一位台灣學者曾經研究考證過，確是事實，回族人當過中國的皇帝，建立過一個大朝代，統治過漢族人，這很有意思。

　　我聽後更感驚訝了，看來包括我本人在內的幾乎所有的中國人都始終把朱元璋看成是漢族人和由漢民族占統治地位的鼎盛大朝的認為是大錯特錯了。原來漢族人在被蒙古族人武力征服當了九十年蒙人的奴隸後，雖然經元末農民大起義推翻了蒙元王朝，趕走了蒙古人，其結果卻又被以朱元璋為首的回族人篡奪去了統治權當了皇帝，漢族人又被回族明王朝所統治。

二、回明王朝的曆史應該改寫和重釋

　　如果曆史事實果真如此的話，那麽明朝的許多事情也就需要改寫或重新解釋了，比如：1、朱元璋在建立明朝當了皇帝以後，尋找種種莫須有的罪名和借口，采用極端血腥殘暴的手段，將幫他打天下推翻蒙人元朝統治的開國元勳謀士名將們一批批地竭盡殘害而斬盡殺絕，這很可能是因為他們都是漢族人，他怕他們據功反叛，推翻他的回族明王朝，恢複漢人統治，所以要進行這場翦除消滅漢族功臣們的種族大血洗。也就是朱元璋殺戮功臣的暴行中有以回壓漢的民族壓迫和種族清洗的內容，而不僅僅是統治階級內部的權力鬥爭；2、朱元璋當上皇帝後要查祖上出身，以榮宗耀祖，顯示和抬高自己家族的高貴和當皇帝的名正言順，可是卻始終查尋不到祖上的顯赫者。有人便牽強地把宋朝理學名家朱熹列為朱家祖上，朱元璋卻斷然拒絕，說姓朱者從我算起。朱皇帝這樣做很可能是因為他知道自己是回人，因此不能認朱熹這個漢人為祖，盡管朱熹有“朱聖人”之稱；3、明朝初建時，有一年南京有一條街的市民們慶祝元宵節時在燈會的春聯中有諷刺馬皇後的詞句，說她是馬大腳，可能這是諷刺朱皇帝馬皇後是回民。朱皇帝得知後“龍顏”大怒，以文字罪而大開殺戒，即下令將這條街的所有市民和觀燈者不分男女老幼全部殺光，一個不留。這很可能是因為朱元璋對於漢族人諷刺和瞧不他們是回族人而所作的民族報複和種族鎮壓，以此警告漢民不許不滿和反對朱家明王朝的回族統治。而朱皇帝因文字罪屠街殺漢，比秦始皇坑殺400多人的儒者更為殘暴血腥；4、燕王朱棣用武力篡奪帝位後，竟對不願為其寫即位詔書的方孝孺施行滅十族的酷刑，一舉殺盡方家及友、仆、學生等800餘口，這種對漢族文人官員殺十族的血腥暴行，實為中國曆史所罕見；5、朱元璋定都南京，朱棣遷都北京，而朱家皇族又是回族人，所以也就使南京和北京兩市中的回民劇增，非常集中，形成勢力；6、漢族人在漢朝時就已取消了奴隸社會野蠻落後的活人殉葬，可是明朝的朱家回民皇族卻又一度恢複了殉葬製，這也可表明朱家皇族是落後於漢人文化的回民族。後來入主中原的落後滿清也曾實行活人殉葬製；7、回明王朝對漢族官員百姓統治的專製殘暴程度在中國曆史上是名列前矛的，錦衣衛、東廠的特務橫行太為發指，這可能也是朱家回族明王朝害怕漢人起來反抗而采取極端嚴密殘酷的特務控製和民族鎮壓措施；8、中國四大名著中的兩部即《水滸傳》和《三國演義》，都作於明末清初年間，可是在書中卻找不到豬和吃豬肉的任何情節描寫，吃肉全是吃牛肉。有人說這是因為作者施耐庵和羅貫中都是回民，忌談豬和豬肉。其實更重要的原因可能是在明朝因為朱皇族是回族人，所以所有文藝作品中都不允許出現有關豬和吃豬肉的描寫。施、羅這兩位明朝遺民在寫書時很可能仍在沿襲明朝的這個規矩，就像滿清王朝滅亡之後很多漢人仍還不願剪去滿人遺物長辮子一樣；9、回明王朝被李自成農民起義推翻後，其遺族建立了南明小朝庭與李自成相抗，後又拒絕與李共同抗清。最後敗退逃亡緬甸，被緬王捕捉引渡，入川後全部被清朝所殺，其中有忠於回明王朝的鄧小平家族的先人。南明朱家遺族之所以要向東南亞退卻，可能是想隱匿於那裏的伊斯蘭教民中(據說朱皇族的另一支逃亡隱匿於湖南邵陽武岡縣)；10、回明王朝被李自成推
翻和被滿清入關滅亡後，被滿人征服為奴的漢族人雖然進行劇烈反抗，卻很少有進行複明鬥爭的，尤其在台灣鄭氏投降後複明鬥爭更處沒落，隻有少數青紅幫會在暗中活動，這很可能是因為回明朱家對漢族的民族壓迫奴役和迫害要比滿清更加厲害，漢族人寧做滿人的奴才而不願再恢複回明的統治，就像蒙元王朝屠殺殘害漢人太為凶狠，漢人寧做回明奴才，而不願再做蒙元奴隸一樣。等等。

　　由此可見，在中國曆史中，原先以為隻有蒙元和滿清兩朝是由非漢族人當皇帝征服和統治漢人的朝代，現在卻又知道原來明朝也是由非漢族人所建壓迫漢人的朝代。從1279年南宋滅亡以後的700多年間，漢族人先後成為蒙、回、滿族統治者征服奴役的奴隸和奴才。

三、兩千兩百年的中國封建社會曆史隻有一個由漢族當皇帝的漢人朝代

　　然而不盡如此，如果再往上推去，卻可以發現，從秦始皇建立秦朝以後的兩千兩百多年時間裏，漢族人當皇帝和成為統治民族的朝代隻有漢朝一個，其他所有朝代全是非漢族人當皇帝執掌統治權而對漢人進行民族壓迫奴役的異族統治朝代。

　　比如，秦人所建秦國並由秦始皇滅亡六國而統一中國，建立中央集權的封建專製秦王朝，其秦人和秦始皇家族都不是炎黃子孫的中原華夏族人，而是原先為中原民族也就是後來所稱漢族放馬的外族人，據說他們是從格魯吉亞遷移過來的。人們在看過西安秦始皇兵馬俑後就可知道，這些秦軍將士的臉型根本不是中原人，而是地道的外族人長相。也就是說，秦始皇統一中國，實際上是非華夏中原人即非漢人武力征服漢族人而建立的外族統治王朝。也正因為外族秦人征服和統治漢族人，所以表現得特別殘酷無情，比如秦人軍隊對六國的軍民殺起來毫不留情，往往是斬盡殺絕。如秦趙長平之戰，秦軍一夜之間坑殺投降趙軍達40萬人，成為世界戰爭史上一天一次殺戮軍隊最多的世界之最，而秦始皇在征服六國的十年統一戰爭中殺死六國士兵達200多萬人，中原百姓死傷者更是不計其數。秦始皇統一中國後對被征服六國的統治，其血腥殘暴和嚴酷程度是過去一千八百年夏商周的華夏曆朝所無法相比的，這其中更多的是包含有外族征服、民族壓迫奴役和種族血腥清洗的內容，而不僅僅是同民族中的階級矛盾和階級鬥爭。

　　漢朝分劉邦家族為皇帝的西漢王朝和其後裔劉秀家族繼任漢家天下的東漢王朝，劉邦和其家族當是漢族人，所以西漢東漢的兩漢是由漢族人自己當皇帝的漢民族朝代，可是漢朝以後的各朝就不是了：1、東漢以後經三國混戰而建立的兩晉，其皇帝司馬家族，據說並不是漢族人，而是古代北方專門從事馬事的遊牧民族後裔。司馬懿為奪魏權，竟將漢族曹操侄孫魏大將軍曹爽兄弟滅三族，誅殺其族人和黨羽700餘口；2、南北朝後所建的隋朝，其北周大將軍後為隋朝開國皇帝的楊堅家族據說也不是漢族人，而是北方少數民族，其子揚廣即隋煬帝的荒淫無道專製殘暴在中國曆代皇帝中是有名的；3、唐朝開國皇帝李淵和其子李世民所建的李唐王朝，他們也不是完全的漢人，而帶有鮮卑血統，所以唐朝皇帝特別重用外族人，最後鬧了個安史異族之亂，幾乎毀了中華文明；4、唐朝滅亡後開始了鮮卑、匈奴、羯、氐、羌五胡鬧中華的五代十國時期，這些非漢胡人紛紛建朝立國征服和統治漢民族，最後被後周大將趙匡贏所篡權奪位建立了趙家北宋王朝。然而據說趙家也不是漢族人，而是五胡之中的一個少數民族。後來北宋被來自東北的遼金族所敗，宋徽宗父子被俘，北宋滅亡，北方地區淪為遼金的女真人之手。趙家皇族的一支敗退江南建立南宋王朝，後被蒙古人所滅，蒙人建立元王朝，把漢族人，尤其是南方漢人列為最末等人，成為蒙人奴隸。而朱元璋利用以漢人為主力的元末農民大起義推翻蒙元王朝建立的明王朝，卻也不是漢族人當皇帝的朝代，而是回族人占統治地位的非漢族王朝。至於明以後的滿清，和蒙元一樣，也是外族征服漢族的非漢族朝代了。

　　可見從秦人秦始皇統一中國後的兩千兩百多年時間裏，中國隻有四百多年的兩漢是漢人當皇帝和漢人是統治民族的漢族人朝代，其他各朝都是由非漢族當皇帝、漢民族成為被征服被統治的奴隸、奴才和臣民的民族壓迫朝代。四、給漢民族的啟發、思考與總結

　　在這裏，對於中國曆史中的秦人、鮮卑人、蒙人、滿人甚至遼、金人等非漢族征服和統治漢族人的史實非常清楚，勿庸置疑，其他各朝如晉、隋、宋、明等也是由他族人當皇帝統治漢族人的史實還有待曆史學家們調查考證。但是如果這一切都是真的，一方麵對自秦以來的中國曆史是否需要重新改寫需要考慮，另一方麵這給占中國人口百分之九十以上絕對多數的絕頂聰明卻又悲可歎的漢民族又有什麽樣的啟發呢？中國早在北宋年間就已經發展起了資本主義萌芽，可是其後的近千年時間裏其資本主義卻始終得不到發展伸張而被嚴酷打壓和無情扼殺，使中國大大落後於後起的西方；中國人、尤其是漢族人膽小怕事，畏懼皇權和官僚權勢，害怕外國人和外民族，奴性很強，很不團結，漢奸奴才層出不窮，漢奸文化盛行不衰等等，這是為什麽呢？是不是可以從這個先進文化的漢人長期被落後文化的外族征服統治的中國曆史中得到一些深層次的思考和總結呢？如果把這一切說成是民族大融合的偉大成果，這對大部分時間處於被外族征服奴役地位的漢民族來說，以及對於中國社會和中華文明的發展來說，所付出的代價是不是實在太大了呢？

寫於北京香山普安店

作者簡介：上海嘉定人,1941年6月14日生於上海,曾是軍人,中國二戰史研究會會
員, 在湖南工作近三十年。無黨派人士，自由撰稿人，自力從事戰略學術研究。
著作有《陰謀與抗爭－－肯尼迪總統被剌案起因剖析：豬灣事件》和《中國的戰
略失誤》(美國美中文化出版公司出版)。

--------------------

Wow, this is the first time I read his article, it is so stereotypical that I almost wanted to stop reading half way through. The article is filled with ethnicity stereotypes, selective sampling(his assessment that the Jin and Song rulers were northern nomads is extremely weak), and a nation-state based view on history. It grossly over emphasize the importance of ethnicity and ridiculously claimed the Han dynasty as the only dynasty where the ruler is of the "Han" ethnic stock.(strange why he didn't consider the Han dynasty as foreign too, since Liu Bang also came from the South, perhaps then he wouldn't be able to make his stereotypical argument since the term Han ethnicity would not even exist for his claims) I must agree with Zhu, how did this guy get promoted to such high levels? 
     --------
Q: I've heard the theory that Zhu Yuan Zhang is a Hui, however, the term Hui is very modern and artificial in that it is more religious than anything else. There are no clear evidence that any of the Ming emperors were Muslims, if so it would have been well documented. To argue that Yong Le sent out his ships because of his secret believe without letting it known to the official historians and mandarins is quite farfetched.
A: Right, there was no huiZU 回族in Ming dynasty, but there was huihui since Yuan Dynasty. HuiZu 回族is a name started from PRC. But there is no difference in nature since they all belive in Islam . I have wrote a briaef introducition about the beginning ,developing and establishing HuiZu 回族above.

Right, there is no document in the huge Ming history 明史written by Qing Dynasty, it will take a few years to read all Ming Shi明史. But nothing related Ming Emperor to hui in Ming Shi明史. However, there are historians and folk stories about Ming Emperor is hui in my first post. There are two books published alread. Sorry, I do not have time now to traslate all my article into English. I will appreciate it if anyone like to do that.

 

Q: Wow, this is the first time I read his article, it is so stereotypical that I almost wanted to stop reading half way through. The article is filled with ethnicity stereotypes, selective sampling(his assessment that the Jin and Song rulers were northern nomads is extremely weak), and a nation-state based view on history. It grossly over emphasize the importance of ethnicity and ridiculously claimed the Han dynasty as the only dynasty where the ruler is of the "Han" ethnic stock.(strange why he didn't consider the Han dynasty as foreign too, since Liu Bang also came from the South, perhaps then he wouldn't be able to make his stereotypical argument since the term Han ethnicity would not even exist for his claims) I must agree with Zhu, how did this guy get promoted to such high levels?

A:  First, that article by LUU JIA PING is not mine.

Second, strictly speaking, only HanChao was ruled by HanZu is not an opinion only by LUUJiaPing. I may give you more big names if you want to read them.

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Q: I am just interested about when did such arguments really started, here is an article at least give me some clues that it is as early as the year 2004 or earlier.

A: In 1973, a Taiwanese scholar published a book about the religion of Ming Emperor《明朝皇家信仰考初稿》

So, this is really not new story at all.

The work of Ma is supported by others such a scholar from PRC . Then, the talk of this famous 100years old scholar to an interview got a big hit. One famous Ming Scholar of PRC wrote that ZhuYuanZhang is not HuiHui, his artilce is posted above. But his argument is weak because he did not mention the two books published by his collegues in Taiwan and abroad. What is funny is that he think the strongest evidence deny ZhuYUanZhang is not HuiHUi is Zhu's slogan,repel the barbarian and restore Chian驅除韃虜 恢複中華. How come he belive a politian's popaganda ?

 

Q: I think the evidence is just slightly better than Menzie's fanatical book, but not much, after reading the authors's comments, it is quite clear that he is very selective in interpreting sources. And after reading the counterargument proposed by Zhu, I think we can conclude that the evidence is simply lacking.

A: Two books published already.

1. in 1516, traveling in China 《中國紀行》

2. in 1973, Religion study about Ming Emperor《明朝皇家信仰考初稿》

What do you think about those two books?

Besides two books, there are also other scholars like famous ZhouYouGuang周有光 support them.

 

Q: I am just interested about when did such arguments really started, here is an article at least give me some clues that it is as early as the year 2004 or earlier.
不知天高地厚的“民間曆史學家”何其多
［ 作者：朱修栐 轉貼自：新語絲 點擊數：4282 更新時間：2/12/2004 文章錄入：admin ］

A: I will just comment on the fisrt few paragraph and will comment on the rest later.

 

Q: 不知天高地厚的“民間曆史學家”何其多
朱修栐
　　我曾經寫過一篇文章《“民間曆史學家”又在胡說八道》，揭露吉林作協會員宮玉海對於中國古代地理名著《山海經》的誤讀和歪解，登在新語絲網站去年12月22日新到資料裏。當時那篇新華社記者采寫的新聞報道中，對宮玉海的介紹中有一項是“籌建中的中國《山海經》研究會會長”。巧的是，最近在網上又看到一篇“民間曆史學家”呂加平的《從明朝皇帝朱元璋不是漢人而是回民說起》，文章中胡說八道的本事又在宮玉海之上，而這位呂加平先生在文末的自我簡介中稱自己是“中國二戰史研究會會員”。我在網上查到了這個研究會的基本資料（http://www.cass.net.cn/chinese/s22_sls/org_web/group/zgdecdzsyjh.htm），資料中介紹說，這個研究會是“從事第二次世界大戰史的群眾性學術團體，由中國社會科學院主管，掛靠世界曆史研究所”，會長是武漢大學副校長胡德坤。一個由中國最高社會科學研究機構主管的研究會居然能夠接收像呂加平這樣的妄人入會，也可見中國的學術研究會腐敗問題之嚴重。我相信如果把類似的研究會都列出來，一個一個地調查其會員的“研究”文章，肯定還能揪出更多的南郭先生。
A: For many reasons that the historians in PRC did not tell the true history. What credit or authority do they have to look down upon "historians" fron the internet? Any historians have a right comment about Qing Dynasty hisoty? Show me please. All lies. I can give you examples if anyone want to see them.

 

 

Q: 　呂加平的《從》文認為明朝皇帝朱元璋不是漢人，而是回民，明朝不是漢族王朝，而是回族王朝，其曆史應該改寫和重釋。這個論點及其論據和宮玉海的
“新說”一樣，是完全建立在根本性的錯誤之上的。如果真如作者所說，朱元璋是回民的話，明朝勢必會成為一個政教合一的伊斯蘭教國家，因為在伊斯蘭文明
受到西方文明衝擊以前，所有的信仰伊斯蘭教的民族占統治地位的國家無一例外都是政教合一性質，明朝決不可能例外，而事實當然決非如此。

A: No 政教合一的伊斯蘭教國家, because the muslim in Ming Dynasty is still weak, muslim is minority in Ming Dynasty even now. It will be unwise to carry out 政教合一的伊斯蘭教國家 in Ming Dynasty. Otherwise they will be thown out .

 

 

Q: 伊斯蘭教是一神教，其“六信”中，信安拉就表示信仰安拉是唯一的神，這是伊斯蘭教的根本教義，但是明嘉靖皇帝卻迷信道教。穆斯林講究“五功”，即念功、禮功、齋功、課功和朝功，而從現存的明朝皇帝實錄中，完全看不到一絲一毫“五功”的影子。
伊斯蘭教嚴禁食豬肉，要求每個穆斯林取經名，過“三大節”（開齋節、宰牲節和聖紀），這些在明實錄中也完全沒有記載。
A: Right, no single trace could be found about Ming Emperor in MingShi明史. Why? I have explained in the post above. Simply because if all the muslim knew the Ming emperor is muslim too, the muslim will have more reble during Qing Dynasty.

 

Q: 相反，明朝僅在正德十四年（1519年）才因為正德帝屬豬，“豬”又和“朱”同音，“禁民間畜豬”，而這個荒唐的禁令也在正德帝死後被廢止。

A: There are about 12 or more emperor with “朱”, did others banned pig? Because 屬豬 and 豬”又和“朱”同音 the emperor will bann pig? Did anyone think this is rational argument?

Q: 呂文也提到穆斯林入葬是不用棺材的，但明朝十六帝除了建文帝下落不明外，其他十五帝入葬都用了棺材。明朝皇帝的這些做法嚴重違反伊斯蘭教教義，再明顯不過地說明他們決不可能信仰伊斯蘭教。因此，呂文試圖通過明朝皇帝的一些習俗推斷他們是回民，完全沒有意義。

A: In my article is about the way of ZhuYUanZhang bury his parents not about the way to bury the emperor itself. This is two issue. What mattes is how ZhuYuanZhang bury his parents with white colth, and that is the custom of Muslim.

Q: 十一。問：一個虔誠的回民，不會用豬肉來祭祀他的祖先，而朱元璋做了
答：什麽叫政治？什麽叫政客？為了權力，李世民把東宮太子李建成殺了，武則天把她兒子宰了。 為了權力，用豬肉來祭祀他的祖先，有那麽難以理解麽？如果你仔細看一下中國的曆史，哪些“皇帝”有的可以說是流氓頭子，“皇帝”的同夥甚至是流氓集團。舉個例子，孫文今天從日本哪裏弄點錢，明天又向俄國或者西方什麽國家拉點讚助，之後在中國收買一些黑幫，就變成了“革命事業”，奪權了，再把一些黑幫一腳踢開，理由是黑幫的革命覺悟不高。孫文甚至把各界捐獻的錢財私自卷走。

Q 1: Such off-hand dismissals totally undermine the article's credibility.  

A: First, the logic of your argument is wrong. Even that paragraph were wrong that would not deny the credibility of the bools and papers published about ZhuRuanZhang is HuiHui. That papragraph only represent my personal opinion.

Second, your fact is wrong. SunZhongShan was a member of HongBang, JiangJieShi was a member of QingBang. They assasinated people and JiangJieShi assasinated people himself, that was why JiangJieShi fleed to Japan. The assasination was trained by Japanes(?). The so called "revollution" was more or less gave money to gansters. When they took power SunWen dispel those gansters in the name of they did not know much about revolution. 
     
------

 

 If Zhu Yuanzhang were Muslim, one wonders why he didn't treat the Muslim Arabs better. See my article here: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2762

--------------------
Q: First, the logic of your argument is wrong. Even that paragraph were wrong that would not deny the credibility of the bools and papers published about ZhuRuanZhang is HuiHui. That papragraph only represent my personal opinion.

A: If the issue is about Zhu YuanZhang, bringing in the examples of other historical figures is nothing more than a smoke-screen to avoid addressing the question. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

Q: Second, your fact is wrong. SunZhongShan was a member of HongBang, JiangJieShi was a member of QingBang. They assasinated people and JiangJieShi assasinated people himself, that was why JiangJieShi fleed to Japan. The assasination was trained by Japanes(?). The so called "revollution" was more or less gave money to gansters. When they took power SunWen dispel those gansters in the name of they did not know much about revolution.

A: What fact? I did not quote any historical fact.

I simply pointed out that the particular paragraph is trying to avoid answering the question about the incompatibility of the notion Zhu YuanZhang as a Muslim and his handling of pork.

By bringing Sun ZhongShan and Jiang JieShi, the writer is simply trying to dodge the question.
Whether Sun's revolution is about money has absolutely no relevance to whether Zhu was a Muslim. 

----

Q: If Zhu Yuanzhang were Muslim, one wonders why he didn't treat the Muslim Arabs better. See my article here: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2762

A: Great paper.

But

No controversy about you article with mine. Mine is about the rapid increase of HuiHui in Ming Dynasty, not about the GuangZhou Port flourish or perish.

--------------------

Q: For many reasons that the historians in PRC did not tell the true history. What credit or authority do they have to look down upon "historians" fron the internet? Any historians have a right comment about Qing Dynasty hisoty? Show me please. All lies. I can give you examples if anyone want to see them
A: I don't see any reason for the PRC to "lie" about the Ming's origin, PRC has always promoted multi ethnicity, not Han chauvinism. The only thing I see is an immature stereotypical comment on the side of the internet publisher who has clear racial agendas. There is a much greater degree of professionalism on the side of the PRC's historian. Lu's sample selectivity is obvious. The only lies I see is his groundless ethnic prejudiced comments. Which sources mention that Zhao Kuan Yin is a barbarian? Which sources mention that Sima Yan is a barbarian? The author is not only applying double standards in his fanatical ethnic theories, his "prove" is extremely skewed in favour of his pre-determined ethnic bias.

Q: There are about 12 or more emperor with “朱”, did others banned pig? Because 屬豬 and 豬”又和“朱”同音 the emperor will bann pig? Did anyone think this is rational argument?

A: I'm sorry, but you are using a deductive argument, you need to show much more prove than simply the decision of one single Ming emperor banning pigs, the evidence is too sketchy to make any conclusive claims, much less to the degree of "changing the textbook". If anything, the taboo is a traditional Daoist superstition, it only show the Ming emperors are more Daoists than any other religion. You are still ignoring the fact that both Ming Xian Zong and Jia Jing are fanatical Daoists, Xian Zong brought a bunch of Daoists to court such as Li Mu Shen and Zhang Yuan Ji. There were so many Daoists and Buddhist monks at court that it became a heavy drain to the empire's finance., According to Ming Xian Zong Shi Lu， he built so many temples that “所費動數十萬計" The emperor Jia Jing constantly dress himself up as a Daoist, was crazy about Daoist elixirs and immortality. Shi Zong loves magic, he is an ardent student of Xuan Xue. The 明史紀事本末 clearly documents that he is a seaker of longevity. Shi Zong built countless Dao Changs. The Daoist Shao Yuan Jie from Jiang Xi, Long hu shang Qing Gong was a favourite of Shi Zong and he got a personal temple at the capital called Zheng Ren Fu, in the 15th year of Jia Qing he became the Li Bu shang shu. Other Daoists Shi Zong brought to court includes Tao Zhong Wen who is said to be able to turn silver into elixirs. Furthermore Jia Jing has lots of superstitious taboos, such as 二龍不相見, hence never set up a crown prince. If you think the pig taboo is irrational, I say this one is just as irrational, but superstition is always irrational, so rationality is a weak argument here.
OTher emperors are also devout Buddhists and Daoists, for example, Ming Shen Zong is also a great promoter of Buddhism because his mother is a devout Buddhist. He spent countless treasure on buddhist temples to satisfy the empress dowager to the degree of largely draining the imperial treasury.
Your muslim argument is interesting, but it is too selective, history has shown Ming emperors to be tolerant of many religions, and Islam is but one of them.

-----------
Q: I don't see any reason for the PRC to "lie" about the Ming's origin, PRC has always promoted multi ethnicity, not Han chauvinism.

A: I don't see any reason for the PRC to "lie" about the Ming's origin
My understanding about why PRC to "lie" about the Ming's origin:

1. PRC is communist country. As a member of communist he must be MinZu Zhuyi Zhe (racism or nationalism ?). Some ccp member consider nationalism is Hanlism. The truth of HuiHui Ming Dunasty is something they can not accecpt. So they lie, such as other lies they are still telling about Chengho finding America, about so called 5000 years chinese history. Does China have 5000 years history? I read some forieghn paper and they said about 4000 years.

2. PRC claimed them of the real heritage or student of SunZhongShan. The revolution slogan of SunZhongShan was QuiChuDaLu. How could they tolerate the fact that Ming Dynasty was Huihui? SunZhongShan' s QuiChuDaLu learned from ZhuYuanZhang. If Ming Dynasty was proved to be HuiHui , then the QuiChuDaLu to recover Han from ManZu will be changed to recover HuiHui from ManZu. What a joke............

Now, I will show you something. In 90s , PRC published a book of telling Ming Dynasty in detail《細說明朝》by LiDonfFang黎東方. Why the PRC changed the way of ZhuYuanZhang using white cloth burying his pesent with old clothes when ZhuYUanZhang was 17 years old?

 

這個是大陸出版細說係列的介紹
顯然
大陸的版本被加工成了“潔版”
正如海外其他一些書籍在大陸出版也要變成“潔版”一樣
看看我標記的紅色和藍色
大陸和台灣版本的差別

 

黎東方先生所著《細說三國》、《細說元朝》、《細說明朝》、《細說清朝》及《細說民國》（大陸版更名為《細說民國創立》）於20世紀70年代前後陸續在台灣出版後，受到讀者的熱烈歡迎，一再重版加印。90年代後期，以上五種《細說》的簡體字橫排本在大陸出版
[url=http://www.spph.com.cn/books/bkview.asp?bkid=29882&cid=51808

台灣版的原文
海外著名史學家黎東方博士所著的細說中國曆史係列中《細說明朝》記載：

“他是貧農家庭的安分守己的子弟，在他十七歲的一年，元順帝至正四年(1344年)旱災，蝗蟲與瘟疫先後降臨到他的家鄉，濠州鍾離縣(安徽鳳陽)，父親朱世珍，母親陳氏，大哥朱興隆，在幾天內相繼去世，家裏的現款極少，買不起三口棺材，更買不起墳地，幸虧有鄰居劉家心好，準他和二哥朱興盛把父母和大哥三人的屍首用白布裹起，埋在劉家墳地的一個角落。”

大陸版的網絡版原文：
他是貧農家庭的“安分守己”的子弟。在他十七歲的一年，元順帝至正四年(公元1344年)，旱災、蝗蟲與瘟疫，先後降臨到他的家鄉濠州鍾離縣(安徽鳳陽)。父親朱世珍，母親陳氏，大哥朱興隆，在幾天以內相繼去世。家裏的現款極少，買不起三口棺材，更買不起墳地。幸虧有鄰居劉家心好，準他和二哥朱興盛，把父母大哥三人的屍首，用舊衣服裹了，埋在劉家墳地的一個角落

--------------------

Custom of burying dead people of HuiHui with white cloth“開凡”

回族葬禮：
回族稱死人為“無常”、“歸真”或“歿了”，切忌說“死”。稱屍體為“埋體”，稱送葬為“送埋體”。對埋體主張速葬，不得超過三天。回族不信風水地脈,隻要是平穩幹燥的地方就可做墓地,實行土葬。人咽氣後,守護者將遺體頭北腳南放置,親友吊唁,送以錢、物，以助葬費，但禁止送花圈、帳聯。亡人的麵容身體要美觀清潔，埋體要經過修麵、修胡須，理掉過長的頭發，其他部位過長的毛發也要剪短或剃掉。還要修剪手指和腳趾甲，清除汙垢。 葬前要給“埋體”清水淨身（俗稱“著水”），再穿上用新白布製成無袖無領的“開凡”。男人的“開凡”通常為三塊，一塊叫“皮拉汗”（波斯語坎肩之意）是覆蓋前身的白布；一條叫“小臥單”，是墊在身下相當於褥子的白布；一塊叫做“大臥單”，是在外層包裹整個“埋體”的白布。女人的“開凡”還要增加用做蓋頭和裹胸（也叫纏腰）的兩塊白布。舉行轉“費達”（贖罪）儀式。然後舉行站“折納孜”（殯禮）的儀式。殯禮主持人一般是有名望的阿訇。儀式開始時，將“埋體”置於“塔布提”匣子中（一種底層可以抽拉的無蓋的大木匣子），抬到葬地，置於墓穴之上，頭北麵西，主持儀式的阿訇為亡人祈禱，並帶領大家念“讚主詞”三次。儀式後，即送“埋體”入墳，葬穴為長2米，寬1米深約2米的直坑，在直坑底部向西側挖一洞（以平放遺體為限）。當埋體按照教規放入洞內後，再將洞門用土坯封住，並用黃土填滿直坑，地麵用磚、土築成脊形墳墓。與此同時，在送“埋體”的沿途中，要為亡人散“乜貼”，數額大小不等，根據家庭條件而定。並將亡人衣物散給洗屍人員和親友，有的還要給前來送“埋體”的眾人散白帽戴孝。亡人葬後逢七 、二七、三七、四十天、百日、周年、三年、十年，都要請阿訇念經，表示紀念。

 

台灣馬明道參照該書及明正史、野史、史學家的評述、回民口碑傳說， 對明朝王室的族屬和宗教信仰進行了詳盡的研究考證， 於1973年寫出《明朝皇家信仰考初稿》一書。 確認朱元璋、馬皇後及其家族和親戚均為回回。

Q: Lu's sample selectivity is obvious. The only lies I see is his groundless ethnic prejudiced comments. Which sources mention that Zhao Kuan Yin is a barbarian? Which sources mention that Sima Yan is a barbarian? The author is not only applying double standards in his fanatical ethnic theories, his "prove" is extremely skewed in favour of his pre-determined ethnic bias.

A: 1. We are talking about my article not Lu's posted by someone else but not mine. I did not post Lu's article.

2. I agree with you that Lu is somewhat Han extremist.

3. Even my artilce is the same or worth than Lu's , the book I provided is still the strongest evedience of ZhuYuanZhang is HuiHui.

--------------------

Emperor Zhu Yuan Zhang, with forieghn looks ( SeMuRen?)

 

Actually, Zhu Yuanzhang happened to have ugly/horrible appearance. Officials had artists drew the handsome portrait of him...
--------------------

Q: 1. PRC is communist country. As a member of communist he must be MinZu Zhuyi Zhe (racism or nationalism ?). Some ccp member consider nationalism is Hanlism. The truth of HuiHui Ming Dunasty is something they can not accecpt.
A: That was a mockery of facts. Feedback is an important aid to process of self-correction, but unfortunately you appear to have no idea of PRC ethnic ideology. Such incredible mismanagement of information can only partly be attributable to decontextualisation by the search engine. Before you post erroneous theories such as this, you should at least read the works of top PRC historians. Because you have completely misinterpreted PRC nationalism. Communism has nothing to do with Min Zu Zhu Yi. Your mis-association of communism with nationalism only shows that you haven't read Marx at all, since its the complete contrast of nationalistic principles. And its ironic how you accuse PRC Han chauvinism, when its the ROC and Hong Kong publishers that has repeatedly demonostrated this trait, if you really read PRC books, you should know that they promote multi ethnic familyhood, its the Hong Kong textbooks that downplay the Qing. Yet, ironically you had the false illusion that it was the PRC which did so when the complete opposite is true. The PRC is the first to praise the Qing as an empire which tripled China's boundaries. So no, the Hui theory would mean nothing to the PRC other than another minority regime within the big Chinese national family. It would seem the only people which lies about ethnic history are the early ROC and HongKongese historians.

 

Q: So they lie, such as other lies they are still telling about Chengho finding America, about so called 5000 years chinese history.

A: Its incredible that you accuse the PRC historians of lying about such theories when they are some of the staunchest opponents of this groundless polemic proposed by Gavin Menzie, the ex-British marine. Not only does it show that you have not read PRC historian's works, but you have never read 1421 either, and it becomes obvious that your theory is based out of the context from a web site featuring third-hand research. That fundamental, undeniable blunder is why you keep digging yourself into an ever deeper hole by making further false and misleading insinuations about how the Chinese government writes history, which has always been based as much as possible on accessible facts, not unsupported hypothesis. And while necessarily biased, top PRC historians at least have the virtue of transparency, which is more than can be said of Lu Jia Ping.  
Furthermore, the claim that the Ming is a Hui regime is nothing but a ethnic fanaticist comment. Even if there are proves that Zhu Yuan Zhang is a Hui, it becomes completely irrelevant after the third generation because the rest of the Ming emperor has more Han blood in them due to maternal marriage, and since they called themselves Hans, believes traditional Chinese superstition instead of Islam, they are as good as Han and not Hui.  
     -------
 Q: Actually, Zhu Yuanzhang happened to have ugly/horrible appearance. Officials had artists drew the handsome portrait of him...

A: How about this. Looks close to the real Zhu

 

Q: If the issue is about Zhu YuanZhang, bringing in the examples of other historical figures is nothing more than a smoke-screen to avoid addressing the question. There is nothing wrong with that.
What fact? I did not quote any historical fact.

I simply pointed out that the particular paragraph is trying to avoid answering the question about the incompatibility of the notion Zhu YuanZhang as a Muslim and his handling of pork.

By bringing Sun ZhongShan and Jiang JieShi, the writer is simply trying to dodge the question.
Whether Sun's revolution is about money has absolutely no relevance to whether Zhu was a Muslim.

A: I am not trying to dodge the question. What I am trying to say is to tell the simple fact that politicians will do anything for the power or throne. Words or act from politcian can not me trusted in the ancient time or even now.

Q: And its ironic how you accuse PRC Han chauvinism, when its the ROC and Hong Kong publishers that has repeatedly demonostrated this trait, if you really read PRC books, you should know that they promote multi ethnic familyhood, its the Hong Kong textbooks that downplay the Qing.

A: Hope the following will tell you how the PRC downplayed Qing dynasty. It is common knowledge to most people in PRC that old China was poor and have nothing. Is this true?
慈禧mm萬歲，萬歲，萬萬歲！
慈禧太後（一八三五—一九○八），是晚清同治、光緒兩朝的最高決策者，她以垂簾聽政、訓政的名義統治中國四十七年。長期以來，大都隻講慈禧禍國殃民，把一些與慈禧毫不相幹的惡行也加在慈禧的身上。在人們的心中，慈禧已成為一個昏庸、腐朽、專橫、殘暴的妖後。那麽，曆史上的慈禧究竟是怎樣一個人呢？

一。從中國重農抑商政策的改變，看慈禧太後的偉大
生產力決定生產關係，經濟基礎決定上層建築。 "民以食為天",這主要是由當時的經濟發展狀況決定的 . 首先，重農抑商起自先秦，也就是春秋戰國時期。在漢朝得到強化。表現在下列幾個方麵：第一，不許商人穿絲綢衣服，不許乘車或騎馬；第二，不許商人 “ 名田 ” ，即購買土地， “ 犯者以律論 ” ，凡土地和奴婢超過法定數額則沒入官府；第三，不許 “ 推擇為吏 ” ，即不許商人及其子孫到官府去做官， “ 犯者以律論 ” ；第四， “ 重租稅以困辱之 ” ，法律規定， “ 賈人與奴婢倍算 ” ，商人所納算賦比一般老百姓要增加一倍；第五，謫發，也叫謫戍，遷徙商人到邊遠地區戍守。
重農抑商的根源: 1。時代的需要：封建社會是自給自足的自然經濟，農業是最具決定性的生產部門，農業生產的狀況直接關係到國家興衰和人民生計， 所謂一飽忘了千年饑，古代常常 是糧食不足。因此，以農立國成為曆代統治者的治國綱領。 2。儒家思想：孔孟都是尊農的。 3。統治階層的需要：封建社會的統治集團是地主階級。 4。穩定的統治：農業是一種自給自足的產業，百性固定在一處，而商業使百姓流動，不方便統治。 商人有可能把本該由國家賺的錢中飽私囊，如果是奸商，還會造成社會不穩定。從統治者的角度出發，農民比商人要好統治何止千萬倍。 以上三個因素的結合，就是中國古代重農抑商的根源與傳統。
經濟基礎決定上層建築，當控製一個社會的經濟命脈逐漸轉為資產階級的時候，封建社會也就開始滅亡了。 慈禧的洋物運動，是自上而下的打破中國上千年的封建體製。盡管宋朝和明朝也有資本主義的萌芽，但那都是私人行為，比如朱元章是最很商人的。 清朝晚期的商品經濟開始發達，資產階級成長壯大，於是，慈禧采用了適合生產力的君主立憲製。因此，封建社會在慈禧新政的8年中逐漸消滅了，也就是說，清朝的 晚期不再是傳統意義上的封建社會了。 通常說的辛亥革命推翻了封建王朝是錯誤的，因為，清朝末期在經濟和政治上都不再符合封建社會的定義。慈禧為中國從封建社會走向資本主義社會，從古代走向現代，在經濟和政治上都做出了偉大的貢獻。 興辦洋務，開創了改革開放的新局麵，奠定了中國現代化的基礎 ，這個重大意義怎麽評價都不過分。 還有，派人留學，廢除科舉而興辦學堂，辦報。辛亥革命後的各種新氣象， 不過是慈禧新政的延續。
這裏，再說一件事，看看慈禧的手腕。清王朝的一部分中央和地方官員主張學習西方近代的科學技術，訓練新軍，購買槍炮、軍艦，發展中國的軍事工業和民用工業，以達到富國強兵的目的。他們的代表人物，在中央有奕?、文祥，在地方有曾國藩、李鴻章、左宗棠、張之洞。盡管他們的改革沒有觸及封建專製的政治製度和社會製度，但是，在頑固派看來，卻是“用夷變夏”，違背了祖宗成法和聖賢古訓。所以，洋務運動一開始，就遭到頑固派的堅決反對。1866年12月，奕?奏請在同文館內添設分館，招收科舉出身的人員學習天文、數學。大學士倭仁親自出馬，上書慈禧，堅決反對。他認為，讓科舉出身的人員向外國人學習天文、數學是斯文掃地。他聲稱，中國之大，不愁沒有人才，隻要多方訪求，一定可以找到精通天文、數學的人，為什麽一定向外國人學習呢！慈禧讓他保舉幾名精通天文、數學的人才，並由他負責選定地方辦一個天文數學館與同文館分館互相砥礪。他隻好承認實無可保之人。慈禧又讓他到主持洋務的總理事務衙門行走。倭仁一向痛恨洋務，現在要他去辦洋務，感到是對自己侮辱，再三推辭，慈禧卻不肯收回成命，弄得這位頑固派的代表人物十分難堪。他到上書房給同治帝講課，有所感觸，不禁流下了眼淚。倭仁最後以養病為理由，奏請開缺。經慈禧批準，免去他的一切職務。由於慈禧的支持，洋務運動才得以衝破重重阻力向前發展，成為中國近代化的開端。

二。統一戰線與慈禧中興：慈禧知人善用，重用漢人，手下能人太多了，曾國藩,胡林翼,左宗棠,李鴻章,駱秉章都是當時的大 英雄，拿到曆史上任何時代也是響當當的。她手下的袁大頭的本事也堪比曹操。讓 這樣一大批能人甘心受她的指揮，足見她的用人能力。 早年協助鹹豐皇帝處理國是，確立了正確的政治路線和思想路線 ，是鹹豐年間政策方針的實際製定者。開創了同光中興的基礎。同光中興 實際上就是就是慈禧中興，以當時內憂外患情形之下，實為中國數千年來之異彩。

三。在中國曆史上首次推出君主立憲製，如果不是她改革步子太大，如果不是內外勢 利的逼迫，如果不是她早早告別人世，中國的今天很有可能是日本或者英國的政治體製。

四。平撚亂，白蓮教亂以及回民和苗民起義。太平天國與義和拳,那個是好玩的? 恐怕道光鹹豐活轉來也玩不轉. 勇於並敢於相信群眾，放手發動群眾反抗外國侵略，發動了轟轟 烈烈的義和團運動，後世的文革，實有效顰焉。

五。1906年下禁纏足令，開中國解放婦女之先河。楊乃武小白菜一案, 足見慈禧之英明與無奈.

六。智禽肅順，內除權臣，維護了安定團結的穩定局麵。禽肅順意義 重大，怎麽評價都不過分，當中體現的大智大勇，艱難曲折，實在有超過 康熙，更是說明太後的過人之處。倘使慈禧多活10年, 袁世凱敢玩得出那麽拙劣的竊國把戲麽?

七。慈禧的武功：英明決策，平定西北，收複新疆，千秋功業，莫此為甚矣。偉哉 太後，壯哉太後。以當時的情勢能做出這個決策，並能夠貫徹始終，太英 明了、太偉大了。當時朝廷的兩條路線鬥爭十分激烈，全靠太後定策廟堂 ，頂住了以李鴻章為首的黑司令部的幹擾和反對，挽救了中國，挽救了大 清。

八。中日甲午戰爭失敗後，帝國主義掀起了瓜分中國的熱潮，民族危機空前嚴重。在維新派的影響下，光緒銳意變法。變法和反變法的鬥爭非常激烈。1898年6月11日，慈禧麵告光緒：“前日禦史楊深秀、學士徐致靖言國是未定，良是。今宜專講西學，明白宣示。”於是，光緒發布了由翁同和起草的《定國是詔》，把講求西學，變法自強，作為清王朝的國策，使維新運動取得了合法地位。但是實行改革後不久，光緒和幾個書生犯了急躁的毛病，要搞大躍進，同時, 革命黨人趁機起事。在戊戌年春夏之交的那一場風波中，慈禧審時度勢，冷靜應對，果斷 平息了這一場動亂，維護了來之不易的穩定局麵。事後，康有為和梁啟超在洋人的幫助下，逃亡國外。那是一小撮別有用心的 人，利用中央工作中的一些失誤，欺騙不明真相的群眾，勾結國外反華勢力，妄圖製造動亂，顛覆政府，篡奪權力，其居心十分險惡，如果不是一 批以太後為首的老同誌還在，結果不堪設想。同光中興事業就完全有可能被葬送。英明哉，太後。

九。精神文明和物質文明兩手一起抓，國防建設和文化建設並重，在太後的大力支持下，為體現同光中興的偉大成就，建設了頤和園這一文化 瑰寶，留存後世。後來有人攻訐說是挪用海軍經費，這是推托戰敗責任的說法。曆史證明，這個“挪用”是完全正確的，唯一的錯誤就是“挪用” 的還不夠。因為曆史證明，即使再投入10倍的軍費，依然改變不了打敗的命運。當時不“挪用”，結果隻會是黃海海底多一艘殘骸，而頤和園就不 會有了，大家說，是要一艘殘骸，還是要頤和園呢。 甲午戰敗責任主要在李鴻章，當時，以李鴻章為首，以“海歸派 ”為骨幹形成了一個黑司令部，他們欺騙太後，把持了海軍的建設和指揮 大權，曆史證明這是一幫禍國殃民的壞蛋。曆史證明，內部的敵人比外部 的敵人更可怕，危害更大。警惕阿，善良的人們！！！！！

王莽 和慈禧 有點類似的地方
1。王莽 在儒家一統天下人思想的時候，王莽是非正統的，王莽違背了儒家禮教中的“家天下”，受到知識分子的攻擊，現在也這樣。而以現在的政治觀點看，成王敗寇，王莽在這一點上沒什麽錯。給王莽平反要到什麽時候呢？

2。慈禧：也是受儒家文化的影響，一個女人執政怎麽讓大男人受得了。無論王莽和慈禧怎麽努力，都免不了被咒罵的，中國的這個傳統文化哦，，，，

3。王莽 和慈禧 的失敗都是因為自己的改革新政，本意是好的，但都太快太急
王莽 的改革得罪了大批的權貴。日本的維新用了20年，慈禧 的新政卻隻用了8年，盡管在中國第

 

 

Q:Furthermore, the claim that the Ming is a Hui regime is nothing but a ethnic fanaticist comment. Even if there are proves that Zhu Yuan Zhang is a Hui, it becomes completely irrelevant after the third generation because the rest of the Ming emperor has more Han blood in them due to maternal marriage, and since they called themselves Hans, believes traditional Chinese superstition instead of Islam, they are as good as Han and not Hui.

A: Do you know why the population of huihui in PRC keep growing while some huihui marryied to Han or other ethinics?

Q: 更何況，明朝皇帝一直稱自己是漢族，比如，稱明朝代替元朝為“複漢官之威儀”等等。在和各少數民族政權的對峙中，明政權更是鮮明地體現出漢族政權的特色。按《現代漢語辭典》，民族就是具有共同語言、共同地域、共同經濟生活以及表現於共同文化上的共同心理素質的人的共同體。因此，就算將來考證出朱元璋的祖先是信仰伊斯蘭教的阿拉伯人或波斯人（這正是回族的族源），從明朝皇帝接受和宣揚的文化來看，他們也隻能是漢族，而不是回族。

A: There were books published already that ZhuRuanZhang is HuiHui. ZhuRuanZhang was successful in making huihui blend into the majority Han Zu, while keep the population of huihui in Ming Dynasty growing. Zhu did restostore the Han culture in Ming but that was a disater to China. Respecting only to KongZi or Rujia theory make ming weak in military, economy and closed door policy. In contrast Yuanchao respect KongZI too but not completely, four religions grow at the same time, that is something similar the era bfore Qin Dynasty. That is one reason why Yuan Chao is great in culture and trading abroad. Yuan dynasty has trade relations with about 140 countries. But Zhu is huhui or not is about his belive in islam in his heart. Zhu wrote a one hundred word of praise to Islam, this proved him a muslim.

 

Q: 除了這種根本性錯誤之外，文中不顧事實的低級錯誤比比皆是。如說明初大殺功臣是怕漢人奪取政權，殊不知明初開國功臣中有許多回族人，如藍玉、胡大海、常遇春等，除常遇春病卒外，也都被屠殺殆盡，藍玉正是駭人聽聞的“藍案”的第一受害人。說明朝恢複殉葬製是體現了回族落後於漢族一麵，事實上伊斯蘭教教義中從無殉葬規定，呂文的這種說法是對伊斯蘭教的無理汙蔑，很容易傷害回族同胞的感情。說明代所有文藝作品中都不允許出現有關豬和吃豬肉的描寫，而眾所周知的豬八戒正是誕生於明中葉的四大名著之一《西遊記》的主人公。說《水滸傳》和《三國演義》是明末清初的作品，而連小學生都知道這兩部名著是元末明初的作品。
A: Agree. Lu made some simple mistakes. But Lu's article did have some good evidence such as the masscre in NanJing because someone said Zhu's wife had a big feet. I may comment that later.

《水滸傳》 發生時間：1370年 ，施耐庵，元末明初人
《三國演義》發生時間：1371年 ，羅貫中，生卒年月不詳。卒於明初。

 

Q: 特別是文章後半部分說什麽“兩千兩百年的中國封建社會曆史隻有一個由漢族當皇帝的漢人朝代”，顯示出作者根本不懂得民族學的基本常識。文末專門寫了一節“給漢民族的啟發、思考與總結”，這種故意把漢族和其他中華民族對立起來的作法，更是一種不折不扣的種族主義，令人作嘔。

A: Like it or not, strictly speaking only Han Dynasty is ruled by Han Zu. And Han extremist is common fact on the intrnet and even in the text books. For example, the PRC keep telling that 56 ethnics are the same and belong to the one warm familly. But in the text book it tell you about QuiChuDaLu, praise WenTianXiang a MinZu hero. Yes, WenTianXiang is a hero but the fact is praising WenTianXiang will hurt the feeling of some mongolians. Why not PRC praise some nutral hero like the soldoers in korea war or heros in the war against Japan's invasion?

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Q: Hope the following will tell you how the PRC downplayed Qing dynasty. It is common knowledge to most people in PRC that old China was poor and have nothing. Is this true?

A: Your "evidence" is completely irrelevant, the PRC downplays backward feudalism in general, and the Qing is but one of these feudal regimes. It has never been singled out as a foreign government thats criticised(unlike the ROC). The Ming is treated as backward and feudal just the same. If you actually read PRC historians such as Yan Cong Nian, you'll know that they have actually bloated the Qing's success more than they actually deserves. Some even went as far as proposing the Qing as the greatest dynasty in Chinese history. Your misinformation in that aspect is the reason your whole theory, which focused more on the integrity of the Chinese government rather than the facts themselves, is obsolete.

Q: Agree. Lu made some simple mistakes. But Lu's article did have some good evidence such as the masscre in NanJing because someone said Zhu's wife had a big feet. I may comment that later.
A: I've already posted this on the boot binding thread, (and its only one household, not the whole city) the reason has much less to do with the Hui nature of Zhu's wife, foot finding for commoners simply isn't as common as it was towards the end of the Ming. Just because Empress Ma did not bind her feet doesn't mean she is a Hui.

Q: Zhu wrote a one hundred word of praise to Islam, this proved him a muslim.

A: Umm, no it doesn't. Temples have received praise from emperors all the time. Buddhist and Daoist temples have received praise from emperors from many dynasties, that doesn't mean the emperor is of that religion. It only shows the relative religious tolerance of imperial China.

Q: But in the text book it tell you about QuiChuDaLu, praise WenTianXiang a MinZu hero. Yes, WenTianXiang is a hero but the fact is praising WenTianXiang will hurt the feeling of some mongolians.

A: Thats only inherited from past traditions, there are some people in the PRC circle that do want to change the textbook and depose the title of national hero regarding to people such as Yue Fei, Yuan Chong Huan and Wen Tian Xiang.

This post has been edited by Zuo Zongtang: Yesterday, 07:07 PM  
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Q: Great paper.

But

No controversy about you article with mine. Mine is about the rapid increase of HuiHui in Ming Dynasty, not about the GuangZhou Port flourish or perish.

A: Actually there is if you read the last part carefully. I argue that Zhu Yuanzhang discriminated against Muslims, and this caused many Arabs to leave China. Those who stayed behind became the Hui.
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Q: I juust said historically he's ugly. I didn't say he's foreigner or not.

A: just ugly? not foreighn?

Q: Your "evidence" is completely irrelevant, the PRC downplays backward feudalism in general, and the Qing is but one of these feudal regimes. It has never been singled out as a foreign government thats criticised(unlike the ROC). The Ming is treated as backward and feudal just the same. If you actually read PRC historians such as Yan Cong Nian, you'll know that they have actually bloated the Qing's success more than they actually deserves. Some even went as far as proposing the Qing as the greatest dynasty in Chinese history. Your misinformation in that aspect is the reason your whole theory, which focused more on the integrity of the Chinese government rather than the facts themselves, is obsolete.

A: 1.What do u mean downplayed? Why PRC does not downplay Tang Dynasty?

2.Yan Cong Nian is different from most PRC historians, but he was still not fiar when commenting on CiXi.

3.Yan Cong Nian bloated the Qing's success more than they actually deserves? Then what did Qing deserve? Who is better, Qing vs Tang dynasty? I think Qing is better than Tang in general

Q: Actually there is if you read the last part carefully. I argue that Zhu Yuanzhang discriminated against Muslims, and this caused many Arabs to leave China. Those who stayed behind became the Hui.

A:  not agree with you.

1. Despise merchants was a general policy to all merchants not just to aranbians alone.
2. Since ZhuYuanZhang adopted "close door" policy, the merchant like the aranbians could not make much money in the port city like GuangZhou. Some went back to Aranbic, some continued to make money but in other cities like HangZhou.
3. Ming Dynasty was a golden era to Hui ZU. That was a common knowledge to all PRC historians. The changes in GuangZhou along could not deny that.
4.Pu Shougeng 's case was related to politics. Because Pu Shougeng betrayed Song Dynasty and served Yuan Dynasty. When politics got invovled, it made no difference whether you were muslim or even a member of the roayl familly. Although, ZhuYuanzhang hated merchants.

Folowing is the last part of your paper. For the sake of convinience to readers, I post it here. Hope you do not mind.

Quanzhou as a cosmopolitan entrepot

The growth of Quanzhou into Song China’s greatest port has certainly received its fair share of study after 1954, most notably by Hugh Clark in 1991 and So Kee Long in 2000. Despite the Song court’s attempts for a century from 989 to restrict trade to Guangzhou and Hangzhou, by 1087 Quanzhou was so “clogged with foreign ships”, their goods “piled like mountains”, that the court had to acknowledge its appeal to foreigners and make the trade fully legal. Thereafter, Quanzhou’s continued success was founded on two related aspects of Song trade policy: firstly, the Song court sought to compensate for its loss of the Silk Road to its enemies (especially after it also lost north China to the Jurchen invasion in 1127) by intensively promoting private maritime trade among Chinese merchants; secondly, it also actively created a favourable environment for foreign merchants to trade and settle in its port cities.

The inclusive, cosmopolitan atmosphere of Quanzhou during the Song is best reflected in its fanfang (“foreigners’ streets”), tracts of land allocated by the government for residence by various foreign communities. These communities were granted a degree of legal autonomy under which they could be subject to the law of their home country. They were also allowed to build their own places of worship, and the mosques of Quanzhou are particularly famous. While there is evidence of Tamil, Srivijayan, Nestorian Christian and Manichaean communities, the Muslim population (which also included some Persians) was by far the largest, because “it was common practice among west Asian merchants to establish agents in foreign ports as full-time residents”. The key role of the Arabs as middlemen was deeply appreciated by the Southern Song court: in 1136 an Arab merchant named Pu Luoxin was awarded an honorary rank in recognition of his contributions to the frankincense trade, and the next year the emperor even issued an edict urging another prominent merchant, Pu Yali, not to retire. But the peak of Arab power in Quanzhou would be reached only toward the end of the Southern Song, when the Arab Pu Shougeng was appointed as the trade superintendent of Quanzhou – and then turned the port over to the invading Mongols.

From Pu Shougeng to the Sipahi

Pu Shougeng’s grandfather had moved to Guangzhou from Champa and become extremely wealthy, but by the early 13th century, diminishing trade at Guangzhou had reduced the family fortune considerably. Shougeng’s father Kaizong then did what many other Arab merchants must have done, relocating the family to Quanzhou ‘where the money was’. However, they arrived to find Quanzhou itself in recession from a combination of factors including high tariffs, inflation, and piracy. Indeed, by the 1230s, merchants in Quanzhou were relocating to the Guangzhou area! Nonetheless Pu Kaizong stayed, and gained an honorary rank by 1233. The Pu slowly rebuilt their wealth, assembled a private navy, and in 1274 Shougeng and his brother gained official ranks as a reward for using it to suppress pirates.

In 1276, as the Mongols received the surrender of the Song court at Hangzhou, loyalist forces proclaimed a young Song prince as their new emperor and raised the flag of resistance in Fuzhou. They gave Pu Shougeng the trade superintendency and military command over Fujian and Guangdong, hoping to enlist his fleet in aid of their cause. But when they sailed into Quanzhou’s harbour, Shougeng had already secretly surrendered to the Mongols and was laying a trap for them. Suspecting this, the loyalists captured more than 400 of Shougeng’s ships and left; in a rage, Shougeng ordered his servants (who numbered several thousand) to massacre some 3,000 members of the Song imperial clan who resided in Quanzhou, as well as all loyalist Song officials and soldiers in the city.

Pu Shougeng’s cooperation with the Mongols secured his reappointment as trade superintendent. Quanzhou was spared from further violence in the invasion, and although the loyalist fleet blockaded the port for 3 months in 1277, they were eventually driven off by Mongol reinforcements. Even before the loyalists were finally wiped out in a naval battle off Guangzhou in 1279, the Yuan dynasty of the Mongols had declared its interest in reviving the flagging foreign trade. The Quanzhou Arabs, led by Shougeng, were given the privilege of promoting and supervising that trade. The government would reduce tariffs, extend loans and finance shipbuilding – in return, it would receive 70% of the Arabs’ profits. Quanzhou’s trade soon reached new heights, with the import of pepper from India’s Malabar coast being especially lucrative. In 1292, Marco Polo estimated that a hundred times more pepper was shipped to Quanzhou than to Alexandria.

The Mongols having destroyed the Abbasid caliphate in 1258 and set up the Il-Khanate in its place, their subjects included other Arabs and Persians as well. Large numbers were now drawn over land and sea to Yuan China by the prospect of better conditions for trade. Others were appointed as tax-collectors, administrators or even ministers, and all received preferential treatment over the Chinese under the ethnic classification of Semu. Besides tens of thousands in Quanzhou, a huge Muslim community also settled in Hangzhou and was described by Ibn Battuta. However, Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians also lived in both cities; Genoese merchants and Franciscan friars came to China for the first time, and the Franciscan bishop of ‘Zaytun’ was grudgingly impressed by a climate of tolerance that made preaching safe but surprisingly unfruitful.

For thirty years, Pu Shougeng’s family administered Quanzhou in a position of great prestige and partial autonomy. By the 1320s, however, the Pu had lost their dominance to swelling numbers of newer merchants from the Il-Khanate. Trade may also have started slowing down even in the 1340s, when Ibn Battuta sailed into the harbour and reported seeing a hundred first-class ships, besides countless smaller ones. The trade route across the Isthmus of Kra seems to have fallen into disuse, while Wang Dayuan observed on his travels in the Straits of Malacca that piracy was endemic there. Epidemics broke out in Fujian in 1345-1346, and apparently spread across China; it has been suggested that this was the same bubonic plague that was soon decimating the European population. The Yuan policy of accepting only paper money in business transactions, which had once facilitated trade, now led to inflation as a less responsible government overprinted currency to support its expenses. Chinese rebellions began breaking out across the empire in the 1330s, and reached a peak in the 1350s after a catastrophic flooding of the Yellow River.

What happened in Quanzhou at this time is not related in the official Yuan dynastic history, but was reconstructed by the late Professor Zhuang Weiji of Xiamen University in 1980, based on unofficial records, including regional histories and clan genealogies. The Semu merchants, anxious to protect their lives and property, organised themselves into a militia called the Sipahi , led by two men named Sayf ud-Din and Amir ud-Din. From fighting off rebels, the Sipahi had turned by 1357 to capturing territory for themselves, marching northwards along the coast to raid Xinghua and Fuzhou. In 1362, internal rivalries led to bitter fighting within the Semu community, and ended with power in the hands of a trade official named Naguna. However, at this time a Fujian warlord named Chen Youding, nominally loyal to the Yuan, was also expanding his power base further inland. In 1366, he advanced to the coast and met the Sipahi in battle at Xinghua. Faced with a superior army, the armed merchants broke and fled. Thousands were killed, including their commanders Baipai Muhammad and Jin Ali. Chen’s forces then marched into Quanzhou, and for three days slaughtered all “westerners” they could find – including anyone with foreign-looking hair and a higher-bridged nose. By the time Ming armies defeated Chen Youding and took Fujian in 1368, most of the surviving Muslims had either escaped by sea or gone into hiding in the countryside. Even those who stayed in Quanzhou would soon see their way of life changed drastically.

[Note: Sipahi (transliterated in Chinese records as ‘yisibaxi’) is a Persian word meaning ‘soldiers’ – usually cavalrymen (in singular form it is sipasi). It later became the standard term for heavy cavalry in the Ottoman Empire, and also spread to Mogul India where it was the origin of the Anglicised term ‘sepoy’. The link between ‘sipahi’ and ‘yisibaxi’ was ‘discovered’ by me almost accidentally, when I came across the word ‘sipahi’ in a description of the Ottoman army and was struck by the similarity. Some searches on the internet finally proved my hunch to be correct. At that time, I was unaware that the link had already been suggested by “[s]ome Japanese and Chinese scholars”, as reported by Fan Ke in a 2001 article: “Maritime Muslims and Hui Identity: A South Fujian Case”, in Journal of Muslim Minority Affairs, Vol, 21, No. 2, pp. 316, 329n. So Kee Long is more specific in tracing the theory to Maejima Shinji’s two-part study “The Muslims in Ch’uan-chou at the End of the Yuan Dynasty”, in Memoirs of the Research Department of the Toyo Bunko, 31 & 32 (1973-74). The identification of ‘yisibaxi’ as ‘sipahi’ (or a related word, ‘ispah’) is disputed by Chinese scholars like Liao Dake, who favour alternative (but less convincing) identifications like ‘Isfahan’ (after the city in Persia) or even ‘Shahbandar’ (the Persian term for a port superintendent). The names of the Sipahi commanders, who held the rank of Wanhu (‘leader of ten thousand households’), mean ‘Sword of the Faith’ and ‘Commander of the Faith’ respectively, but there is no evidence that their actions were motivated primarily by religion, or that any violence was directed specifically against non-Muslims in Quanzhou.]

Between two world systems: Reassessing Reid’s ‘Age of Commerce’

Marco Polo had observed the resentment of the Chinese towards the “Saracens” whom the Mongols employed to govern them, and the Chinese rebels who completed the overthrow of the Yuan and established the Ming dynasty were no different. Zhu Yuanzhang placed restrictions on the practice of Islam, which were only lifted in 1407 by Zhu Di, whose closest confidants were Muslim eunuchs. To impose ethnic assimilation from above, Mongols and Semu were forbidden from marrying within their own kind. Highly-sinicised Quanzhou Arabs like the Ding of Chendai village, who had migrated from Suzhou in the late Yuan, still faced official suspicion: their patriarch was unjustly imprisoned for a year for alleged links to the banned White Lotus Buddhist sect. The descendants of the Ding and Pu are today quite indistinguishable from other Chinese, and many have forgotten their origins, having accepted assimilation completely.

Under Ming rule, the remaining Arabs withdrew from all commercial activity, because the government now moved to break the power of merchants by monopolizing overseas trade. Instead of attracting foreign traders and fostering its own merchant community, China would now seek only formal tribute missions from foreign rulers, or dispatch government fleets to purchase the desired commodities. All tribute missions would be registered at Guangzhou, except for those from Ryukyu which were required to register at Quanzhou. Thus, “Quanzhou and the Fujian ports were largely bypassed. Instead of foreign traders, these ports saw only imperial garrisons, who built new walled forts and manned coastal flotillas to arrest illegal shipping, fight off pirates…, and prevent smuggling. … [Quanzhou] never regained its former greatness as a port.” Indeed, smuggling and piracy would become characteristic of the Fujian coast during the Ming dynasty, and were significant factors in the emergence of the most prominent Fujian port of the Qing dynasty, Xiamen (Amoy).

Wang Gungwu suggests that a reference in the records of the Zheng He fleet to a Muslim merchant community on the northeast Java coast may indicate where some Arabs who left Quanzhou shifted their operations to. If this is true, these communities nonetheless ceased to maintain direct links with the Indian Ocean, and restricted themselves to the trade within Southeast Asia. Arab ships, whether from the east or the west, no longer went beyond the Straits of Malacca after the 14th century, and I would even suggest that the famous Ming voyages to the Arabian and African coasts were undertaken not so much as displays of naval might or diplomatic missions, but rather as attempts to revive the intra-Asian trade route after the collapse of the Arab network. The fleets retraced this route to Ceylon, Calicut, Hormuz, Mogadishu, and Malindi, and brought back spices, frankincense and ambergris – but they also sought to replace it by developing alternative sources closer to home.

Anthony Reid has famously identified Zheng He’s first visit to Southeast Asia as the beginning of the region’s ‘Age of Commerce’, in that it introduced Indian pepper plants to Sumatra. Pepper had, by the 1560s, become Southeast Asia’s main export to both China and Europe, and even India’s eastern coast began importing Sumatran pepper. Pasai and Malacca became bustling entrepots for Muslim merchants from the Indian Ocean, and these merchants would now include more Gujaratis than Arabs. The steady ‘Islamisation’ of insular Southeast Asia in this period is also generally credited to Indian Muslim merchants, not Arabs. But when the Portuguese sailed into the Indian Ocean after 1498, they found that neither the Gujaratis nor the Arabs had naval power to match theirs, and the route into the South China Sea soon lay open to them. The beginnings of the ‘modern world system’ conceptualized by Immanuel Wallerstein are usually traced to this power vacuum in the Indian Ocean, and the earlier expeditions of the Ming fleets into that ocean regarded as a vision of another world order that might have been.

However, Janet Abu-Lughod has theorized that Quanzhou had been one cornerstone of a ‘premodern world system’ that linked northwestern Europe to China in a trading network sustained by the Arab middlemen from the 1250s to the 1350s. This world system depended on the ability of the overland Silk Road and the Indian Ocean sea route to complement each other in a single circuit running between the Islamic and Chinese worlds. Despite the flourishing of maritime trade during the Song dynasty, the circuit was not fully-formed until the Mongol conquests brought both worlds into one empire for a century. Abu-Lughod therefore argues:

It is our hypothesis that the foundations of that system had begun to erode early in the fourteenth century, that they were precipitously weakened by the epidemic deaths in the mid- and latter-fourteenth century, and that they were finally undermined completely by the collapse of the Mongol “empire” that, although it allowed the Ming to come to power, also cut China off from its Central Asian hinterland. Thus, what is viewed in Chinese history as a restoration of a legitimate dynasty must be viewed in world system perspective as the final fragmentation of the larger circuit of thirteenth-century world trade in which China had played such an important role.

In Abu-Lughod’s view, the Mongols have been largely maligned as destroyers of civilizations. The decline of the Arab world and the Central Asian trade routes was mainly a consequence not of the Mongol conquest, but of the bubonic plague and the attacks by Timur (Tamerlane) in 1370-1402. Nor did the Mongols cause the “drastic break” in China’s progress to modernity that Western scholars have imagined. Indeed, it was the collapse of the Yuan and the decline of cosmopolitanism and international commerce under the Ming that aborted China’s advance towards the kind of society represented by Quanzhou. This decline cannot be explained simply in terms of the trade ban, or the dismantling of the Ming fleets – as Abu-Lughod suggests, those fleets were only a “last effort” to forestall an economic collapse caused by the Ming dynasty’s loss of both the Silk Road and the Arab middlemen. They were an expensive gamble, and they failed because tribute missions could never be enough to prop up an entire world system. “The result was a Chinese withdrawal that concentrated on rebuilding the agrarian base and internal production and marketing” – with that withdrawal, the world system disintegrated completely.

Wang Gungwu concurs that “there might have been something of a ‘Pax Mongolica’ for Muslim and Chinese traders in Southeast Asia and the Indian Ocean”, and that from the Ming dynasty, Chinese merchants limited themselves to trading directly (and usually illegally) with the Southeast Asian ports – “It was not until the sixteenth century that the Europeans began to bring Indian Ocean commercial needs to the China coast again.” Reid’s ‘Age of Commerce’ thus saw a temporary flowering of Southeast Asian polities in the two to three centuries before the rise of a new ‘Eurocentred’ system, but one must recognise that its ‘commercial’ nature was a poorer stopgap from the perspective of international trade. It would probably be more useful to refer to 1400-1680 by a less memorable but more specific term, like ‘the Southeast Asian Pepper Boom’. That boom in fact arose from the decline of the Arab middlemen of Quanzhou, and this time the Arabs could not recover (as they had done in the past) before the Europeans arrived with their own ideas of what profit entailed - ideas that would both traumatize and transform Asia over the course of the next few centuries.

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Q: Look, its obvious you haven't read many PRC historian's work on the Qing. Or else you wouldn't call them Han chauvinists, because there is nothing in their work that demonstrate this, on the contrast, ever since the liberation of new China, PRC historians have grossly labeled Qing emperors as protectors of Chinese territory.

A: 1.What do u mean downplayed? Why PRC does not downplay Tang Dynasty?
2.Yan Cong Nian is different from most PRC historians, but he was still not fair when commenting on CiXi.
3.Yan Cong Nian bloated the Qing's success more than they actually deserves? Then what did Qing deserve? Who is better, Qing vs Tang dynasty? I think Qing is better than Tang in general
You did not answer this question either.
Do you know why the population of huihui in PRC keep growing while some huihui marryied to Han or other ethinics?
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Quangzhou and Guangzhou were similar, all were part of silk road on the sea. Pu's familly moved from GuangZhou to QuangZhou. Both cities suffered from ZhuYuanZhang's revolution and banning trade over the sea. Yes, QuangZhou suffered the most. However, in general, Ming Dynasty was the golden era for huihui. The Political turmoil and banning trade over the sea could not deny that. Following was what happened in QuanZhou, something similar to what SunZHongShan did later. SunZhongShan's followers committed massccre of ManZu later, for the sake of so called "revolution.

明初的排外運動

　　元朝蒙古人和色目人聯合對南方漢人（南人）的統治，促進了泉州對外交流的發展，也促進了當地文化多元狀態的發展，但從更廣泛的地域看，同時也造成了漢人與非漢人之間深刻的民族緊張情緒。明朝建立後，明初統治者利用這種民族情緒，在全國範圍內掀起排外運動。

　　泉州《清源金氏族譜》載，明兵入泉時，“凡西域人盡殲之，胡發高鼻有誤殺者，閉門行誅三日。凡蒲屍皆裸體，麵西方……悉具五刑而誅之，棄其肉於豬槽中，報在宋行殺逆也。”在泉州的阿拉伯人、波斯人、蒙古人及其混血的後代，或被殺滅，或被迫逃亡，其宗教崇拜場所、居住區、墓園也廣遭破壞。

　　在國家壓力的迫使下，阿拉伯、波斯商人及其後裔，不得已逃離泉州城區，向山區和海邊的荒僻鄉村移民，甚至離開泉州，逃往其它州縣。

　　泉州蒲氏在元代顯赫一時，入明之後，為朱元璋所不赦，其後裔或被充軍邊遠，或四處逃散。蒲壽庚的八世孫蒲本初匿居晉江東石榕樹村，明、清時卻也發展為數百之眾，然清末民初遭匪患、瘟疫，逃亡或死失而廢村，今東石尚有30餘人。蒲氏流散各地，今永春達埔、德化潯中、雙翰尚有100餘人，鯉城、惠安、金門也有少數。其他則分散於海內外各地。
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Q: Like it or not, strictly speaking only Han Dynasty is ruled by Han Zu. And Han extremist is common fact on the intrnet and even in the text books. For example, the PRC keep telling that 56 ethnics are the same and belong to the one warm familly. But in the text book it tell you about QuiChuDaLu, praise WenTianXiang a MinZu hero. Yes, WenTianXiang is a hero but the fact is praising WenTianXiang will hurt the feeling of some mongolians. Why not PRC praise some nutral hero like the soldoers in korea war or heros in the war against Japan's invasion?

A: Your statement is irrational, and it is you who are asserting an extremist position. According to the formal definition of ethnicity, it is based on three criteria:

1. Self-identification
2. Culture
3. Ancestry

The fact is that the rulers of the Jin, Sui, Tang, Song, Ming etc dynasties all identified themselves as Han, identified mostly with Han culture, all had Han surnames and had some Han ancestry. This fact is enough to justify the position that they are ethnic Han. It is as simple as that.

Ethnicity is not the same thing as race. It is not just determined by blood or even determined by it primarily. Ancestry is a factor but there is no such thing as "pure blood" in any ethnicity. In fact, it is possible for someone with no actual Han ancestry at all to become an ethnic Han as long as he or she adopts a Han surname and be adopted into the Han extended family/clan, as adopted children should be treated just as well as children by blood. So even though some of these rulers had some non-Han ancestry as well as Han ancestry, this is simply irrelevant in the determination of which ethnicity they belonged too.

To over-emphasise "blood" is in fact a rather racist view.

This post has been edited by somechineseperson: Apr 17 2006, 11:12 AM  
     

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Q: This thread has gotten so deliciously convoluted that I couldn’t resist reading it through to figure it out.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the section 1 of the OP deduces that Zhu Yuanzhang is Hui based on certain evidence but then section 2 simply CONCLUDES that the reason for Zheng He’s voyages to find mecca. Sorry, but where is the evidence or deduction process for saying that Zhu Yuanzhang (died 1398) ordered Zheng He to find mecca (voyaging from 1405 onwards)?
Section 3 of the OP cites a book written in 1516 that deduces from certain court practices that the Emperor is Muslim. Sorry, how does that go towards showing that Zhu Yuanzhang (died 1398) is Hui? Section 4 of the OP cites a book written in 1973 which relies on (amongst other things) the book written in 1516, so I would have the same difficulty relying on this 1973 book
Section 5 to 7 is just name dropping, not to mention that section 7 cites a PRC scholar even though lovesue888 believes PRC has reason to “lie about the Ming’s origin”. And since I have great respect for 白壽彝, I will not stand for the way you cite his FOOTNOTE about a legend he has HEARD (父老相傳，明太祖原是回回) as if HE (rather than those 父老) personally supports your deduction that Zhu Yuanzhang is a Hui.

Section 8 is even weirder because it just cites a menu.

The FAQ section of the OP actually presents some of evidence pointing to Zhu Yuanzhang not being a Hui but then tries to “explain away” them BASED on the assumption that Zhu Yuanzhang is a Hui. Sorry, but that’s just not the way to present an argument—ALL the evidence for and against Zhu Yuanzhang being a Hui should be presented upfront and then WEIGHED. E.g. how strong a piece of evidence is Zhu Yuanzhang’s menu, etc.

After replies by poster who didn’t find the OP convincing, the threads veers into discussions of the PRC’s policy on history and other people (like Sun Zhongshan), all of which doesn’t help me to understand on when/how Zhu Yuanzhang order Zheng He to find mecca!?? Wasn’t it the Ming Chengzu Emperor Zhu Di who got Zheng He to go sailing?

(Well, this isn’t the first thread like that— makes the Rome vs Han and other “what if” threads seem great cos they are so focused on the facts.)

 

A: Just answer you in short and will comment on your questions later.

1. The topic shifted to Qing Dynasty is because someone keep asking me to read the books by the historians of PRC. My post about Qing and SunZhongShan was to prove the historians in PRC simply lying about the Chinese history. This is the part of the reason. But Warhead claimed that there is no discussion here and that is really weird. I came here not for a war, but sharing my knowledge and learning something at the same time. Warhead did not answer my questions and only me post information here. I am really surprised this place have such kind of argument. Also , the questions I asked Warhead will answer some of your questions. But it seems that I have answer those questions by myself.

2. Muslim keep growing in PRC in the sa called dark time during Qing dynasty and even now in PRC. Because Muslim believe islim strongly, they will let the husband or wife to belive in islim too if the other part is han or other ethnics. That is why muslim keep growing. All those indicate if the parent is muslim ,his children will be muslim too. There are eveidence that the offsprings of ZhuYuanZhang beliave in islam, and that prove indirectly that ZhuYuanZhang is mulim too. ZhengHe's sailing to mecca in his last trip prove the offspring of ZhuYUanzhang is muslim.

3. There were also eveidence indicate that ZhuYuanZhang himself is muslim in my posts.
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Q: Your statement is irrational, and it is you who are asserting an extremist position. According to the formal definition of ethnicity, it is based on three criteria:

1. Self-identification
2. Culture
3. Ancestry

The fact is that the rulers of the Jin, Sui, Tang, Song, Ming etc dynasties all identified themselves as Han, identified mostly with Han culture, all had Han surnames and had some Han ancestry. This fact is enough to justify the position that they are ethnic Han. It is as simple as that.

Ethnicity is not the same thing as race. It is not just determined by blood or even determined by it primarily. Ancestry is a factor but there is no such thing as "pure blood" in any ethnicity. In fact, it is possible for someone with no actual Han ancestry at all to become an ethnic Han as long as he or she adopts a Han surname and be adopted into the Han extended family/clan, as adopted children should be treated just as well as children by blood. So even though some of these rulers had some non-Han ancestry as well as Han ancestry, this is simply irrelevant in the determination of which ethnicity they belonged too.

To over-emphasise "blood" is in fact a rather racist view.

A: In my post, I said strictly speaking but you are using modern term to define ethinity. We are talking about two different issues. Strictly Speaking, Sun舜 and Zhou周文王 were not "han" either, in the eyes of Xia 夏People. Broadly speaking , or using the modern criteria , they are" Han" or ZongHuaMinZu too.

About 5000 years Chinese WenMing中國的文明史, you need to have the evidence to prove the "WenMing"文明史. So far there are not enough evidence to prove China have that long "WenMing" History文明史. You need proof, not just stories. This is science not writing a novel.

周文王是不是漢人？

嚴格的說，不是
因為當時的人以夏朝統治的地區為正朔，所謂華夏民族，
而舜，東夷之人；周文王，西夷之人

但是
廣義的說，或者用今天的標準，
他們是中華民族的，所謂漢族是不斷融合的結果。

周文王，商末周族首領。姬姓，名昌。季曆子。商紂時為西伯，亦稱伯昌。任用太顛、散宜生等，施行裕民政策，勢力日盛。為紂所忌，囚之於羑裏，後獻有莘氏之女、驪戎之文馬等，始得獲釋。他曾解決虞、芮兩國的爭端，出兵進攻犬戎、密須、黎、邗，又擊滅崇，修建都城豐邑，並擴充勢力到長江、漢水、汝水流域，作滅商準備。在位50年，其晚年已取得「三分天下有其二」的局麵。

武則天改國號周時，追尊周文王為南周始祖文皇帝。

夏朝（約為前2000年—約前1600年），中國史書記載的第一個朝代。史書記載夏朝有萬國, 所以一般認為夏朝是一個部落聯盟形式的國家（大陸馬克思主義史學則認為，夏朝是一個奴隸製國家），夏朝文物(公元前1600年以前的文物)中有一定數量的青銅和玉製的禮器, 所以其文化／文明程度高於新石器晚期文化。但是由於迄今為止，在考古學上還沒有找到夏朝存在的文字依據(最早的文字記載出於西周初期)，因此，其真實存在性沒有得到正式確認。但是也不能否認夏朝的存在, 因為如果當時的文字書寫在一些不易保存的物品上, 流傳不下來也是完全有可能的, 商朝的存在也是因為甲骨和青銅器是容易保存的物品才得以證實. 史書記載「禹時五星累累如貫珠，炳炳若連璧。」經過全麵計算，公元前1953年2月26日有一次很好的五星聚會，這可以作為估定夏代年代的參考。

根據史書記載，夏朝是禹的兒子啟建立的國家。夏禹傳子代替了以前的禪讓製度，由禪讓製變成王位的世襲製。夏朝共傳13代，16王(一說14代、17王，主要是大禹是君主還是部落聯盟首領有爭議的問題)，約400年，後為商朝所滅。

商朝（約前1600年—前1046年），中國曆史上繼夏朝之後的一個王朝。約公元前1600年商族部落首領商湯滅夏創立，商王朝經曆17代31王。曆經五百餘年，至前1046年1月20日被周武王所滅。

西方學者一般認為，夏朝隻是中國傳說中的朝代，並沒有確鑿的證據證明曆史上夏朝的存在，因此中國的第一個朝代應該是商朝。並且按照他們所定的文明標準，中國的文明史最多隻能從商朝的盤庚遷殷算起，也就是說，中國的文明史其實隻有3000年，而不是中國學者所說的5000年。但是需要指出的是，在殷墟遺址於20世紀上半葉被發現之前，這些學者同樣認為商朝隻是一個傳說中的王朝。殷墟出土的甲骨文幾乎完全印證了司馬遷史記中所記載的商王世係表，使得商朝的存在成為無可爭議的事實，現在已經沒有學者再對此持懷疑的態度了。偃師二裏頭文化的考古成果對夏朝的存在提供了支持性證據。在被普遍看作蠻夷之地的非中原地區，以成都、廣漢為中心的、以青銅器聞名的三星堆文化，也創造了不亞於中原商朝的高度文明，距今有4000年之久。

 

Q: NO, thank you-- there is NO NEED respond to my post POINT BY POINT, just

The rest of the OP does not make sense if you don't address this point. 

N.B. I don't accept your reasoning process & resulting conclusions for Zhu Yuanzhang being Hui, so never mind the evidence and PLEASE STOP repeating the contents of your OP-- since we don't even agree on the "proper" debating/logical processes, we're just gonna have to disagree on this.

A: Please help me to understand which sentence in my post tell you that Zhu Yuanzhang (died 1398) order Zheng He to find mecca ? Thanks.
help me to understand on when/how Zhu Yuanzhang (died 1398) order Zheng He to find mecca (in 1405)!?? Wasn’t it the Ming Chengzu Emperor Zhu Di who got Zheng He to go sailing?

--------------------

 

 QUOTE
泉州《清源金氏族譜》載，明兵入泉時，“凡西域人盡殲之，胡發高鼻有誤殺者，閉門行誅三日。凡蒲屍皆裸體，麵西方……悉具五刑而誅之，棄其肉於豬槽中，報在宋行殺逆也。”
This sentence is incorrect. The massacre of Arabs and Persians in Quanzhou was done by Chen Youding's army. He was an independent warlord who nominally was loyal to the Yuan and fought many battles with Zhu Yuanzhang. Shortly after he captured Quanzhou, Zhu Yuanzhang's army defeated him and conquered Fujian.

QUOTE
泉州蒲氏在元代顯赫一時，入明之後，為朱元璋所不赦，其後裔或被充軍邊遠，或四處逃散。蒲壽庚的八世孫蒲本初匿居晉江東石榕樹村，明、清時卻也發展為數百之眾，然清末民初遭匪患、瘟疫，逃亡或死失而廢村，今東石尚有30餘人。

But one of Pu Shougeng's descendants, Pu Heri, was actually a member of Zheng He's crew. So the discrimination against the Pu family did not last that long.

--------------------

 "The Ming were secretly Muslim, but those mean ol' scholars are covering it up"
This is like one of those gnostic "Jesus secretly worshipped the sacred feminine" claims.
As Dan Brown said, "Everyone loves a good conspiracy theory".

This guy is supposed to look particularly "foreign"?

QUOTE
ZhengHe's sailing to mecca in his last trip prove the offspring of ZhuYUanzhang is muslim
Erm, Zheng He himself was a Muslim (and considering how he prayed to and built a temple for the Celestial Spouse, not a very observant one). It is hardly surprising that he would have wanted to go to Mecca. How would that make the Ming imperial family Muslim?

QUOTE
He send muslim Zhenghe to found meicca,where is the sacred place for the Muslim.

He sent Zheng He a lot of places. You're reading too much into it.

QUOTE
All his sailing routes is about muslim.
First off, Kozhikode (Calicut) , Sri Lanka and Champa were part of his itinerary several times each, and they were not Muslim kingdoms. So the claim that "all his sailing routes is about muslim" is a lot of codswallop. Also, Muslims had taken over most of coastal and island Southern Asia by then, as well as a lot of the maritime activity. If he didn't run into them a lot, I'd think he was avoiding them.

QUOTE
What mattes is how ZhuYuanZhang bury his parents with white colth, and that is the custom of Muslim.

White is a traditonal funerary color in Chinese culture.

QUOTE
Zhu wrote a one hundred word of praise to Islam, this proved him a muslim.

The KangXi emperor and Tang Taizong praised and patronized Christianity, and Taizong even gave Christians land for a church in the capital (ask somechineseperson to elaborate, he's better at this). Shall we speak of "secretly Christian" emperors of China too? For that matter, some rulers of the Emirates have donated land for churches many times. Are they Christians now? And don't forget what I mentioned earlier about Zheng He and the Celestial Spouse.

Oh, and I bet that the Temple/Altar of Heaven (TianTan), the largest temple/altar complex in all China, were built and worshipped in by the Ming so that no one would suspect that they were "secretly Muslim", right? Or maybe it was meant to have served as a mosque in disguise until those mean ol' infidels appropriated it for their Jahiliyyic rituals, right? 

This post has been edited by DaMo: Apr 24 2006, 10:17 PM

--------------------

Please help me to understand which sentence in my post tell you that Zhu Yuanzhang (died 1398) order Zheng He to find mecca ? Thanks.

Err, my mistake then-- so if not Zhu Yuan-zhang, who was the Muslim Emperor of Ming China that you claimed to have ordered Zhang He to make his voyages (to mecca)? I probably got confused because your whole OP seemed to be about Zhu Yuan-zhang being Muslim-- and as you've put it in the OP:

QUOTE
The truth is that the emperor of MIng was Muslim himself. He send muslim Zhenghe to found meicca,where is the sacred place for the Muslim.

Plenty of eunuchs in the palaces of the Caliphs and Sultans, watching over their harems.

It is a very very old institution.

What do the muslim think about eunuch?
I thought they forbide gay or change of sex ?

--------------------

 

 http://members.tripod.com/worldupdates/isl...heworld/id3.htm

這是3500萬穆斯林在中國的數字來源
網站是：世界上的穆斯林---中國篇
此文介紹伊斯蘭教傳入中國的曆史
明朝是穆斯林的黃金時代
清朝對穆斯林有壓迫，但我認為是謊言，是穆斯林內部派別之爭，導致穆斯林屠殺
500萬以上的漢族人，之後，清朝鎮壓，再加上受害漢族的報複行動，才導致穆斯林
在清朝受“迫害”的，文章把因果倒置，實在是醜化清朝。

Islam in China

By
Yusuf Abdul Rahman

[The Ancient Record of the Tang Dynasty describes a landmark visit to China by Saad ibn Abi Waqqas (ra), one of the companions of Prophet Muhammad (s) in 650 C.E. This event is considered to be the birth of Islam in China. The Chinese emperor Yung-Wei respected the teachings of Islam and considered it to be compatible with the teachings of Confucius. To show his admiration for Islam, the emperor approved the establishment of China's first mosque at Ch'ang-an. That mosque still stands today after fourteen centuries.

Muslims virtually dominated the import/export business in China during Sung Dynasty (960 - 1279 CE). The office of Director General of Shipping was consistently held by a Muslim during this period. During the Ming Dynasty (1368 - 1644 CE), a period considered to be the golden age of Islam in China, Muslims fully integrated into Han society by adopting their name and some customs while retaining their Islamic mode of dress and dietary restrictions.

Anti-Muslim sentiments took root in China during the Ch'ing Dynasty (1644 - 1911 CE), which was established by Manchus who were a minority in China. Muslims in China number more than 35 million, according to unofficial counts. They represent ten distinct ethnic groups. The largest are the Chinese Hui, who comprise over half of China's Muslim population. The largest of Turkic groups are the Uygurs who are most populous in the province of Xinjiang, where they were once an overwhelming majority.]

Although it may come as some surprise, Islam has survived in China for over 1300 [1400] years. It has done so despite such upheavals as the Cultural Revolution as well as regimes hostile to it.
Even though there are only sparse records of the event in Arab history, a brief one in Chinese history, The Ancient Record of the Tang Dynasty describes a landmark visit to China by an emissary from Arabia in the seventh century. Saad ibn Abi Waqqas (ra), one of the companions of Prophet [Muhammad (s)], led the delegation [in 650 C.E.], which brought gifts as well as the belief system of Islam to China. According to the traditions of Chinese Muslims, this event is considered to be the birth of Islam in China.

Although the emperor of the time, Yung-Wei, found Islam to be a bit too restrictive for his taste, he respected its teachings and considered it to be compatible with the teachings of Confucius. For this reason, he gave Saad complete freedom to propagate the faith among his people. To show his admiration for Islam, the emperor ordered the establishment of China's first mosque at Ch'ang-an. The mosque still stands today, after thirteen [fourteen] centuries.

As time passed, relations between the Chinese and the Muslim heartland continued to improve. Many Muslim businessmen, visitors, and traders began to come to China for commercial and religious reasons. [Arabs had already established trade in the area before Prophet Muhammad (s).] The Umayyads and Abbasids sent six delegations to China, all of which were warmly received by the Chinese.

The Muslims who immigrated to China eventually began to have a great economic impact and influence on the country. They virtually dominated the import/export business by the time of the Sung Dynasty (960 - 1279 CE). Indeed, the office of Director General of Shipping was consistently held by a Muslim during this period.

In spite of the economic successes the Muslims enjoyed during these and later times, they were recognized as being fair, law-abiding, and self-disciplined. Thus, there is no record of appreciable anti-Muslim sentiment on the part of the Han (Chinese) people.

By the beginning of the Ming Dynasty (1368 - 1644 CE) Islam had been nourishing in China for 700 years. Up to this time, the Muslims had maintained a separate, alien status which had its own customs, language, and traditions and was never totally integrated with the Han people. Under the Ming Dynasty, generally considered to be the golden age of Islam in China, Muslims gradually became fully integrated into Han society.

An interesting example of this synthesis by Chinese Muslims was the process by which their names changed. Many Muslims who married Han women simply took on the name of the wife. Others took the Chinese surnames of Mo, Mai, and Mu - names adopted by Muslims who had the names Muhammad, Mustafa, and Masoud. Still others who could find no Chinese surname similar to their own adopted the Chinese character that most closely resembled their name - Ha for Hasan, Hu for Hussein, or Sai for Said, and so on.

In addition to names, Muslim customs of dress and food also underwent a synthesis with Chinese culture. The Islamic mode of dress and dietary restrictions were consistently maintained, however, and not compromised. In time, the Muslims began to speak Han dialects and to read in Chinese. Well into the Ming era, the Muslims could not be distinguished from other Chinese other than by their unique religious customs. For this reason, once again, there was little friction between Muslim and non-Muslim Chinese.

The rise of the Ch'ing Dynasty (1644 - 1911 CE), though, changed this. The Ch'ing were Manchu (not Han) and were a minority in China. They employed tactics of divide-and-conquer to keep the Muslims, Han, Tibetans, and Mongolians in struggles against one another. In particular, they were responsible for inciting anti-Muslim sentiment throughout China, and used Han soldiers to suppress the Muslim regions of the country.

When the Manchu Dynasty fell in 1911, the Republic of China was established by Sun Yat Sen, who immediately proclaimed that the country belonged equally to the Han, Hui (Muslim), Man (Manchu), Meng (Mongol), and the Tsang (Tibetan) peoples. His policies led to some improvement in relations among these groups.

After Mao Zedong's revolution in 1948 and the beginning of communist rule in China, the Muslims, as well as other ethnic minorities found themselves once again oppressed. They actively struggled against communists before and after the revolution. In fact, in 1953, the Muslims revolted twice in an effort to establish an independent Islamic state [in regions where Muslims were an overwhelming majority]. These revolts were brutally suppressed by Chinese military force followed by the liberal use of anti-Muslim propaganda.

Today, the Muslims of China number some 20 million, according to unofficial counts. The government census of 1982, however, put the number much lower, at 15 million. These Muslims represent ten distinct ethnic groups. The largest are the Chinese Hui, who comprise over half of China's Muslim population and are scattered throughout all of China. There is also a high concentration of Hui in the province of Ningsha in the north.

After the Hui, the remainder of the Muslim population belong to Turkic language groups and are racially Turks (except for the Mongol Salars and Aryan Tajiks). The Turkic group is further divided between the Uygurs, Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Kirgiz, Tatars and Dongshiang. Nearly all of the Turkic Muslims are found in the western provinces of Kansu and Xinjiang. The largest of these Muslim groups are the Uygurs.

The Uygurs are most populous in the province of Xinjiang, where they make up some 60% of the total population. This relatively small percentage is due to the massive influx of non-Muslim Chinese into the province in recent times, a situation that has brought problems of assimilation and raised concerns about the de-Islamization of one of China's predominantly Muslim regions. [Muslims in Central Asia, under the USSR, were subjected to a similar population management, Russification of Central Asia;Muslims, and the Uygur in particular, suffered tremendously under the regime of Mao Zedong and his "Cultural Revolution." During the communist reign of terror, there was a violent campaign to eradicate all traces of Islam and of the ethnic identity of all non-Chinese. The Uygur language, which had for centuries used Arabic script, was forced to adopt the Latin alphabet. The Uygurs, as with most believing Muslims, were subjected to forced labor in the some 30,000 communes set up in the predominantly Muslim provinces. The imams and akhunds were singled out for humiliating punishments and tortures....[and were forced to] tend to pig farms, which were sometimes kept in government-closed mosques.

Under the pretext of unification of national education, Islamic schools were closed and their students transferred to other schools which taught only Marxism and Maoism. Other outrages included the closing of over 29,000 mosques, the widespread torture of imams, and executions of over 360,000 Muslims.

Since the death of Mao and the end of his hard-line Marxist outlook nearly fifteen years ago, the communist government has greatly liberalized its policies toward Islam and Muslims. And despite the horrors of the Cultural Revolution, Islam has continued to thrive in China.
Today the campaign for assimilation started during the Cultural Revolution has slowed somewhat and the Turkic Muslims have greater freedom to express their cultural identity. The government has, for instance, allowed the reinstatement of the Arabic alphabet for use with the Uygur language. There is, however, continued discrimination against the Turkic Muslims by the immigrant Chinese (favored by the government) who have settled in the far western province of Xinjiang. This immigration has posed a problem as Han Chinese are migrating to Muslim areas at the rate of 200,000 a year. In many places where Muslims once were a majority, they are now a minority.

Since religious freedom was declared in 1978, the Chinese Muslims have not wasted time in expressing their convictions. There are now some 28,000 mosques in the entire People's Republic of China, with 12,000 in the province of Xinjiang. In addition, there is a large number of imams available to lead the Muslim community (in Xinjiang alone there are over 2,800).
There has been an increased upsurge in Islamic expression in China, and many nationwide Islamic associations have been organized to coordinate inter-ethnic activities among Muslims. Islamic literature can be found quite easily and there are currently some eight different translations of the Qur'an in the Chinese language as well as translations in Uygur and the other Turkic languages. The Muslims of China have also been given almost unrestricted allowance to make the Hajj to Mecca . In 1986 there were some 2,300 Chinese Muslims at Hajj. (Compared to the 30 Soviet Muslims allowed to make the same pilgrimage, this number seems quite generous, considering that the Soviet Muslim

population outnumbers China's by nearly four times).

China's Muslims have also been active in the country's internal politics. As always, the Muslims have refused to be silenced. Several large demonstrations have been staged by Muslims to protest intrusions on Muslim life. Last year, for instance, Muslims staged a massive protest rally in Beijing to demand the removal of anti-Islamic literature from China's bookstores. The Turkic [group] Muslims have also held demonstrations for a greater voice in the running of their own affairs and against the continued large-scale immigration of non-Muslims into their provinces. In the news this spring are more reports of demonstrations and struggles by Chinese Muslims to regain their rights. Insha'Allah they will be successful.

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This post explained the so called musilim depressing during Qing Dynasty. How strong the muslim are after Ming Dynasty(golden age for muslim)

轉一個帖子，也是說西北回民大起義的，作者不詳，數字也許有出入，僅供參考。這裏沒有什麽民族爭端問題，隻是想說明回族在清朝的強盛，說明明朝時候回族得到了怎樣的發展。這次爭端有俄國人的影子，正如西藏有英國人的影子一樣。為了七分中國，瓜分中國。這裏不得不讚揚一下慈禧支持左忠堂收複新疆的偉大，當時的清朝可是內外交困啊，這次戰爭，李鴻章是反對的，，，
　　------
　　回民起義是在駐陝清軍到南方鎮壓太平天國，回民借防務空虛進行對漢民進行的種族滅絕大屠殺。起義第一仗不是殺清軍，而是血洗漢民村莊八女井，將全村一萬餘口不分男女老幼集體屠殺。回民起義不是針對清軍、針對清政府，說他反清是為掩蓋回民起義大屠殺的事實，美化回民起義。回民當中３０００人找不出一個識字的，缺少文化教養，根本不懂什麽是反封建。後人說回民起義是反封建，純粹是為了美化回民起義，用階級鬥爭曆史觀給回民起義扣的紅冒子。 　　
　　　　　陝西回民領袖白彥虎帶領的陝西回民殺人最瘋狂。此人起義時隻有２２歲，大字不識一個，沒有一點教養，後以殺人多而成為領袖。在寧夏，他掘了皇家墳墓。在其它回民起義領袖投降得以安置後，他自知罪孽深重，麵對不可能的勝利，不顧回民的死活脅迫他們繼續死拚。他殺了嫂子，以威脅不願跟他再死拚的人。最後他投靠國外分裂勢力，分裂中國。就這麽一個人，現在有人謂他為民族英雄。
　　
　　可歎的是，很多人包括很多曆史學家，隻讓人知道清朝鎮壓回民起義,卻不告訴你,回民當時做了什麽。以致於，今天很多人將左宗堂當成民族罪人，白彥虎當作民族英雄。張承誌寫書誤導回民，歌頌屠殺，宣揚聖戰，而很多人把他的書看成是有血性的小說。把殺人的刀當作藝術品去欣賞。 可悲啊，中國，你為何讓你的後人視大屠殺為起義，將惡魔當親人，視英雄為罪人，將屠刀當玩具啊。
　　
　　回民起義對漢族的大屠殺，開始於同治元年（１８６２年）的陝西，在陝西殺了約５００萬人。１８６３年，陝西回民在被清軍鎮壓退到甘肅後，對甘肅漢人進行瘋狂大屠殺。雖然也有甘肅回民參加，但最殘暴的是陝西回民，殺人最狠。據《中國人口史》一書的統計，回民起義前鹹豐十一年（１８６１年）甘肅人口１９４５．９萬人，戰後光緒六年（１８８０年）人口僅存４９５．５萬人，人口損失１４５
　　５．５萬人，損失比例為７４．５％。在甘肅，回民一次殺１０萬以上漢人的大屠殺有很多次，許多縣的漢人被殺光。回民起義殺掉陝甘兩省的總人口大約２０００萬人．這是世界近代史上最殘暴的種族滅絕大屠殺。這次大屠殺比希特勒屠殺猶太人手段更殘酷。不分男女老幼，全部用刀砍死，用火燒死，進行種族滅絕大屠殺。
　　不是為謀財，不是為謀地，單純為殺人而殺人。
　　以下是甘肅部分縣大屠殺的情況。
　　
　　據鎮原縣誌：”四鄉堡寨攻陷無遺，而縣城獨全，蓋四鄉之人逃出虎口者，生後入城避難。是月初九日……（回民軍入城）……，全城糜爛，死者不知其數。”據《中國人口史》，回民屠城前全縣人口２６．９萬，戰爭損失２３．４萬，損失比例為８７％．
　　
　　據《中國人口史》，涇州四縣鹹豐十一年（１８６１年）有人口９２．８萬，戰爭中人口死亡８２．２萬，損失８８．６％．
　　
　　平涼。據宣統《甘肅新通誌》卷４７，同治二年（１８６３年）八月，回民軍隊”陷平涼城府官……員死節者百餘，士民死者十數萬。”據《中國人口史》一書推算，同治年間平涼府（包括華亭，隆德，平遠，海城，固原）人口損失２４９．１萬，占戰前人口的８８．６％。一次被殺十萬人以上的例子很多．
　　
　　在華亭縣，據記載，“同治二年十一月，陝回入境，焚殺極慘。初土回叛變，尚愛鄉土，不甚殘毒。及陝回入境，無所顧惜，焚殺慘於土回十倍。華亭從此丘墟。“”鄉鎮民屋焚殺殆盡，遺民數百悉逃蓮花台。“平回後招安遺民，歸城者僅七十餘人，男女老幼死亡數萬。據《中國人口史》，華亭縣鹹豐十一年（１８６１年）人口約１７．１萬，戰爭中人口損失約達９４％．也即基本上被殺完了．
　　
　　隆德縣。據載：”同治四年縣破城，從此官逃莊浪，城空無主者五年．人民殺斃餓死十有八九，老弱逃盡，全縣無二三十人家。全縣村村焦土，十室九空．”人口死亡比例高達９０％．而今這個縣的人口，基本上均是戰後移民．
　　
　　固原縣。回民軍隊與清軍爭奪的重點。同治二年一份奏報稱，固原突被回軍攻破，”民殆盡”宣統《甘肅新通誌》卷４７稱：”固原回叛……城內官民男婦共死者二十餘萬人。”
　　
　　據中國人口史，慶陽府戰爭中損失１２８．７萬，占戰前人口的９１．３％．漢民基本被殺光．
　　
　　寧夏府。據宣統《甘肅新通誌》卷４７，同治二年，回民軍隊”陷寧夏府城，漢民十餘萬被屠殆盡”。同年馬化隆又陷靈州，”城中民人死者二萬餘”。整個寧夏府人口損失多達１５０萬，戰後僅存１０多萬．當時有一篇祭文有如下描述：“……同時赴義，數十萬人，盡罹鋒鏑，天降鞠凶……“
　　
　　花馬池（現為寧夏鹽池），原有１０萬人，戰後隻留下５９４７人．人口損失９４．１％．漢人基本上被殺完。
　　
　　陝回入甘經渭源、狄道至河州，屠殺甚慘。由於當時農村殺得很慘，能逃的則湧入縣城，借城牆保命。然而城破之後，則被血洗。如渭源城破後，“屠毒生靈以數萬計，滿城官員皆死之。“另一記載：“殘殺一日，輒死人民數萬，血流成渠，屍積如山，傷心慘目。”渭源人口損失９０％，人民基本被殺光。十年後才設官府，招民種田，原有住戶隻餘十餘家。
　　狄道。宣統甘肅新通誌卷４７記載，同治二年八月，回民陷狄道州城，居民十餘萬被屠。
　　靖遠。同治五年，“陝回陷靖遠縣城，陝回結靖遠回為內應，攻陷其城，靖民逃出者十之一二。《甘寧青史略》正編卷２１則稱，靖遠破，“漢人死者男婦約十餘萬”。
　　
　　當代回族作家張承誌在其書《心靈史》中記錄了一首靖遠流傳的兒歌：
　　　同治五年三月間，殺氣彌漫天。
　　　　　十餘萬人一朝盡，問誰不心酸。
　　　　　桃含愁兮柳帶煙，萬裏黃流寒。
　　　　　闔邑子弟淚潸潸，染成紅杜鵑。
　　　　　清歌一曲信史傳，千秋壽名山。
　　　碧血灑地白骨撐天，哭聲達烏蘭。
　　但他認為：“初聞此曲時，我吃驚的是：與我們通常認為的大漢族主義壓迫少數民族這一認識針鋒相對，靖遠漢族知識分子認為，是回民的民族主義和國家對回族的優厚政策，導致了回亂時期苦難深重的靖遠漢族知識分子受挫。這是極其罕見的錯誤認識。我為這種認識感到震驚的原因，並非在我對它的不義的反感，而在我清晰地觸碰到的這種──人的隔閡。靖遠縣是否發生過同治五年三月回民屠殺十餘萬漢
　　民的慘案，我不知道。但是我相信回民一定有過對漢民的仇殺。人對人是殘酷的。
　　亂世從來釋放殘忍。民族仇殺是曆史的一種真實。同治回民起義中，屠殺漢族無辜的現象在陝西回民軍中尤為嚴重──報應是後來陝西籍政府要員對回族的成見。繼承劊子手湘軍遺風的一些湖南人，以及保持對回亂懼恨的一些陝西人，將是這個世界上最難理解回回民族的人。”
　　這個學曆史、搞考古的研究生水平的作家，對於“十餘萬人一朝盡”沒有興趣進行調查落實，一句“不知道”就說過去了。而且憑直覺給了一個“極罕見的錯誤認識”的主觀判斷。他隻對回民受難的曆史有興趣，對漢民“十餘萬人一朝盡”的曆史沒有感情。然後就感歎陝西人對回族有成見，是最難理解回回民族的。陝西臨潼兩年時間被殺三十萬，全縣無一村一戶幸免。這樣的曆史張承誌也是沒有心情去調查的。在他的書中，隻記述回民被鎮壓的悲壯的曆史，而不見回民對漢民瘋狂屠殺的曆史。這樣做不知是出於無知，還是為了其它。
　　知識分子應當追求真善美，以體恤生命為良知，熱愛和平，心存大同。無論你是寫曆史的還是寫文學作品的，歌頌屠殺、讚美屠殺，是沒有人性的，是不為人類所齒的。
　　
　　以下是陝西各縣的殺人數字：整體而言，回民起義後，渭河兩岸各縣人口減少６０％，
　　
　　損失最慘的是臨潼縣，人基本被殺完。
　　臨潼縣。據複旦大學史地所路偉東研究，臨潼縣1861年人口是26萬。臨潼縣誌載, “1862--1869七年，臨潼縣死亡人口30餘萬.。渭河南北燒殺之災無一村一人而幸免.。”也就是說，不僅殺光了原來的人口，也殺光了這七年新生的孩子。《中國人口史》一書，列出了很多縣的死亡情況，唯獨對死亡最慘的臨潼縣沒有提說。
　　涇陽縣。據《中國人口史》一書，戰前一年的１８６１年人口１７，７萬，戰後６。７萬，戰爭中損失１１萬。
　　興平縣。戰前１８６１年１８。４萬，戰爭三年人口損失７。９萬。
　　戶縣。戰前１６。２萬，戰爭中人口損失比例超過三分之二。高陵縣戰前８萬，損
　　失４。８萬。
　　富平縣，戰前３１。８萬，損失２０。３萬。　
　　三原縣，鹹豐十一年（１８６１）三原縣人口２１。６萬人，損失１２。３萬。據三原縣誌記載，回民起義兩年間（１８６２─１８６３），“縣舊隸五百餘村俱殘破，僅存東裏、蔡王二堡”。　
　　高陵縣。回民起義前的１８６１年高陵縣人口８萬人。高陵縣誌記載，“同治三年（１８６４），縣內人口銳減至３２１９２人。”損失４。８萬。
　　大荔縣（舊製），戰前２２。４萬，三年後僅餘７２６７９人。損失６７％。
　　合陽縣，戰前２９。９萬，戰後餘１４。６萬，損失５７％。
　　澄城縣，戰前２０。６萬，損失６０％。
　　蒲城縣，戰前３２萬，損失６４％。
　　華州（現華縣），戰前１７。８萬，戰後不到９萬。
　　
　　是多隆阿將軍，鎮壓了回民叛亂，救了陝西人。是左宗堂左大人帶領湘軍平息了回民叛亂，救了整個西北地區的人民，包括回民。各位看官，如你是陝西人，請向多將軍表示敬意，不然我們的祖先早被殺光了。如你是西北人，請向左大人表示敬意。
　　我們無法再向古人說什麽，當你與湖南人打交道時，一定要對他們好點。因為是湘軍不畏生死，用生命拯救西北人民，對他們的後人好一點。
　　
　　以上回民起義死亡人數的資料均有據可查，主要是《中國人口史》（第五卷，清史部分）。另外，《同治年間陝西回民起義調查》一書，記錄了很多大屠殺的過程。
　　《甘肅新通誌》也是一部很有價值的書。
　　
　　轉一些網友對這段曆史的評論：
　　
　　陝西回民趁清朝軍隊到南方鎮壓太平軍,準備屠殺漢人.目的是將陝西的漢人殺光.起義前,他們秘請鐵匠打刀,刀打好後將鐵匠殺掉,以防泄秘.為準備殺人的竹杆,將街上的竹竿買光了.大荔縣有一個漢民大村八女井,回民起義第一次殺人就是將此村的漢人全部殺光,一早上殺了一萬多人.緊接著,挨村殺,不分男女和老幼,很快大荔,渭南,華縣的農村被回民殺光.殺完了農村,再進攻縣城.一些縣城的老百姓進行了頑強抵抗.在臨潼縣,一個有文化的回民教師在接到第二天的殺人傳貼後,緊急報告縣長.縣城緊急關門,才保住了一些人.而渭河兩岸的漢民村莊,全部被殺.全縣被殺30萬人,不留一人.回民組織了30萬人的軍隊,在關中平原殺人.幾個月時間殺了五百萬人.80%的漢人被殺,隻有一些縣城保住了少量人口,向北逃的人都被回民殺了,少量逃進驪山裏
　　的人,因回民不敢進山殺人而留了下來.
　　清朝將軍勝保,看回民人多勢眾,不敢出城迎戰.任由回民屠殺.後被慈禧太後賜死.湘軍將領多隆阿,作戰勇敢,將回民趕出陝西,救了陝西人的命.當年,關中到處都有多將軍的忠義祠,現在他則成了罪人.那個向臨潼知縣通報情況的回民老師,通報情況後,知道回民不會饒他,殺了自己的老母和妻子兒女,然後自殺.當年臨潼人為他修了祠堂.但
　　現在已沒有人知道,這個勇救漢人的回民.
　　陝西回民1862年起義,又不斷動員甘肅回民起義.甘肅回民1863年開始起義,甘肅回民殺漢人鄉鄰難以下手,從陝西逃過來的回民則走一路殺一路.甘肅漢民被殺了600萬.甘肅全省人口減少70%,中部地區的漢民幾乎全部被殺. 這就是回民起義.回民為了在黃河以西地區建立一個純粹的回民國家,借著清朝後期的衰弱,對中華民族發祥地上的漢人進行種族滅絕大屠殺,一年時間殺了1100多萬漢人.
　　陝西回民的首領之一白彥虎殺人最凶,殺遍陝西殺甘肅,最後投靠外國勢力分裂中國.一些曆史學家以這個人敢造反,譽此人為民族英雄.現在還有人準備給這個人過節日.而平息了回民起義的左宗堂,現在則成為罪人. 回民起義是典型的種族滅絕大屠殺,比希特勒屠殺猶太人要殘忍得多.比南京大屠殺嚴重得多.可惜的是,沒有人願意告訴你這悲壯的曆史.反而要把它說成是義舉.
　　
　　再轉網友評論：
　　
　　之所以有這麽大的損失，是因為漢人的傳統是不私藏兵器，所以遇到問題沒武器可用，而當時的回族一般都有，第二點是回族有騎兵，漢人沒有，騎兵對步兵，勝負是明擺的，第三點是回族聚集之後（估計人數最少有幾十萬），首先不是攻擊城市，而是以上百倍的兵力集中掃蕩各個孤立的村莊，村莊人口少，所以被整村整村滅絕，而中國當時農村的特點是農村人口占全省人口的90%，
　　
　　另外一點是屠殺來得突然，各個農村來不及組織聯合以及防禦，很短的時間內，陝西就被殺了幾百萬農村人口，後來的城市由於孤立，在局部戰場而言，回族武裝在人數上反而占壓倒性多數
　　
　　你分析得真好，這麽好的對曆史的分析太少了。如果中國再亂，相同的屠殺是否會出現？如果避免？如果乘機把他們殺光？大家研究這個，很有意義。他們不是起義，是暴亂，是殺人魔王，是種族屠殺。我們要提倡民族尚武知兵，比如軍訓。

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Eunuchs got nothing to do with being homosexuals or changing of sex.

Are you sure ?
because we have no account of it..
just that Zheng He was muslim and a eunuch.
how other muslim look at an eunuch since they would kill gay

--------------------

 

 Being a eunuch does not necessarily mean one is gay, and definitely does not by itself make one transsexual.

--------------------

"If an archeologist calls something a finial, he usually he has no idea what it is"
"We Vandals get blamed for stuff that was actually done by some errant Lombard or Visigoth"
"Nationalism is much about forgetting as it is about remembering"
 
 Been eunuch just mean you are nonsexual, like a holy priest, so why is it wrong?  
    

 

 Ming Dynasty founder and royal house definitely had " muslim connections " either blood-tie or religious practice as it has always been re-circulated like " fried cold rice ",that how we Cantonese speakers simply put it.

Been eunuch just mean you are nonsexual, like a holy priest, so why is it wrong?

I did not say it was wrong, I was asking how the muslim look at this because there was no account that how they respond if they know that person is an eunuch? I don't know there is any Arab Eunuch ?

 

I was asking how the muslim look at this because there was no account that how they respond if they know that person is an eunuch? I don't know there is any Arab Eunuch ?

As I mentioned, the caliphs, sultans and emirs in the historical Muslim states, and even the rulers in the Middle-East prior to Islamisation, had hordes of women in their harem. Those women were usually attended by male attendants who were eunuchs.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch for some eunuchs in ancient times.

I don't think the Muslims look at a eunuch in any particularly different way from other cultures with the eunuch institution look at them.  
     
 

As I mentioned, the caliphs, sultans and emirs in the historical Muslim states, and even the rulers in the Middle-East prior to Islamisation, had hordes of women in their harem. Those women were usually attended by male attendants who were eunuchs.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch for some eunuchs in ancient times.

I don't think the Muslims look at a eunuch in any particularly different way from other cultures with the eunuch institution look at them.

WOWWWWWWWW...
All this while I only heard of Chinese Eunuch, but it seem that it started in Middle East and it's all over the world.
Greek, Roman, Africa, India, Middle East, Vietnam....
Eunuch were waiters in muslim world...
    

--------------------

WOWWWWWWWW...
All this while I only heard of Chinese Eunuch, but it seem that it started in Middle East and it's all over the world.
Greek, Roman, Africa, India, Middle East, Vietnam....
Eunuch were waiters in muslim world...
   

lol zaman sebelum Islam (Zaman Jahiliyah) 
    
 
Prince of the So...
Prince of the South
 

 

 All this while I only heard of Chinese Eunuch, but it seem that it started in Middle East and it's all over the world.
Greek, Roman, Africa, India, Middle East, Vietnam....

The Ottoman empire of the Turks had many powerful eunuchs of which some held the title of Grand Vizier. They were of a plethora of ethnicities from Egyptians, Arabs, Turks, Africans, Slavs....

What do you mean by "the Ming Dynasty is the golden age of Islam in China"?. I believe if that's the case and if the Ming emperors were Muslims, the whole of China would have been converted to Islam. That would really mean "Golden Age" wouldn't it? Why would the Ming secretly practised Islam while they rule China? What for? I reckoned that would be the only Muslim rulers to do that? By this rational, and we are not even into facts yet, the possibility of Ming emperors being Muslims are rather tentative. Let's see,

We know Muslims are fervent believers, and if a nation's ruler is Muslim, they would definitely declare the country an Islamic State. We have many modern Islamic countries, Malaysia, Brunei and Indonesia, closer to homes, Arabs countries even with a signiificant Christian minority Syria, Lebanon, Egypt for example. If you look back into history, with the growth of Islam, Muslims conquerors swept all before them, first by conquest and then by converting the people to Islam, Abbasid Caliphate, Omayyad Caliphate, Muslim Spain, and even the conversion of Malay kingdoms like Malacca Sultanate started from the royal family first.

Now, if the Ming rulers were Muslims, why were they so secretive? Because Muslims are known to convert their people, so it would highly improbable that not even one Ming emperor tried to do that? I reckon this is a major anomaly. Wouldn't that be unthinkable??? Even great civilisations like Egypt, Persia and India are islamicised to a certain or greater extent when the rulers were Muslims but why not Ming China?? How about the Goldern Horde? To say they were secretive so that the Chinese people would not rebel against their Muslim rulers is a weak argument, as I have said before, Islam rulers are fervent and conversion would be very widespread. Even if you were not forced to convert, you would find that by converting you would be getting preferential treatment must be a great reason to do so. for eg, Muslims Slavs in the Ottoman empire i.e. Bosnians.

And if Ming emperors were Muslims, why then not the Islamic states of Southeast Asian didn't record it so? We would probably learn that the Malacca Sultanate, contemporary to the Ming, should have records about their muslim brethern in great detail if both rulers were Muslims. I find it very strange in fact that these islamic states had no such records, especially these so called smaller nations would be "protected" by their bigger Muslim brother, China.

The growth of Buddhism in China were of royal patronage, I would be very surprised if the Ming emperors were Muslims, Islam didn't grow into a state religion. If the Chinese people would have rebelled against a Muslim ruler, they would had done so too to a Buddhist ruler of a China where Buddhism was hitherto unheard of and foreign.

So again I question the statement - "the golden age of Islam is during the Ming Dynasty". Simple ridiculous considering the rulers were secretly Muslims and covertly encouraging the religion to grow with indirect and
secret manipulation. If that is the case, I think the term "Golden Age" is thus used inapropriately.  
     
 

 

 Not to mention that the most massive monument of imperial dedication to traditional Chinese religion, the Temple of Heaven, was built by the Ming. While Hindu temples in India were being razed and/or mosque-fied by Muslim conquerors.

--------------------

lol zaman sebelum Islam (Zaman Jahiliyah)

What do you mean by "lol zaman sebelum Islam (Zaman Jahiliyah)". As far as I know, there are eunuch in muslim kingdom, such as Ottoman Empire.  
     


Anyway, wonder how does the Muslim think of Eunuch ?

Well, I don't understand... Why did it can be a problem in muslim world. Eunuch is common thing in muslim world. So, that's not a big deal.

Because as far as I know, Muslim don't allow Gay or change of sex and the penalty is DEATH!!

Well, Islam, like many others religion, doesn't allow homosexuality. But it doesn't mean muslim have to kill the homosexual people. There are no massacre against homosexual people in Islam history. In several muslim countries, homosex are exist, and they don't have to be killed because of their sexual orientation.

The change of sex clearly another thing. People change their sex has nothing to do with their sexual orientation (Homosexual or Heterosexual), but because they didn't feel fit in their bodies. So their mind not suitable with their bodies. We call them transsexual. In Islam, transsexual was known, of course there are some limitation. I meant, Islam didn't hate people like them. Of course the "acceptable transsexual" in Islam world completely different with the western concept, for example they have to keep their behaviour.
In several muslim countries, change sex are allow. Even in very strickly muslim country like Iran.

How about Eunuch ?? Any idea ?

Eunuch? Eunuch wasn't homosexual nor transsexual. Beside many eunuch has been eunuch not by their own willing. Zheng He, for example, captured by Zhu Di's troops in Yunnan while the troops swept the remaining of Mongol resistance.

Both his grandfather and father were known as hajji, meaning that they had made the pilgrimage to Mecca, a journey that Zheng also later completed

Hajj is pilgrimate to Mecca. In the past the journey was very expensive and dangerous trip. So there very few people have chance to go to Mecca. Ma He's family must be very rich people there. If they're really a hajj, I think they go by land, not by sea.

Zheng He's voyage wasn't a personal voyage. So I doubt that it has something to do with Mecca. As far as I know Zheng He passed away before reach Mecca, so he never completed that pilgrimate (in his 7th Voyage). Of course there are another version tells he die in China.

I believe if that's the case and if the Ming emperors were Muslims, the whole of China would have been converted to Islam. That would really mean "Golden Age" wouldn't it? Why would the Ming secretly practised Islam while they rule China? What for? I reckoned that would be the only Muslim rulers to do that? By this rational, and we are not even into facts yet, the possibility of Ming emperors being Muslims are rather tentative.

So again I question the statement - "the golden age of Islam is during the Ming Dynasty". Simple ridiculous considering the rulers were secretly Muslims and covertly encouraging the religion to grow with indirect and
secret manipulation. If that is the case, I think the term "Golden Age" is thus used inapropriately.

I agree with you. I just wanna adding some hypothesis about the possibility of Ming Emperors being muslims. Well, both sides are extrem. I meant, they insist to be right. one side believed the Ming emperors are muslims, the other side didn't believe at all. Maybe the first side not entirely wrong, and the second side not completely right. Personaly I doubt that the Ming emperors were muslims, but maybe some of them were muslims.

I said "maybe" not "mustbe". So maybe Zhu Yuanzhang, Zhu Yunwen, and Zhu Di were muslims. After that, because of situation or something, Zhu Gaochi, Zhu Zhanji, etc no longer being muslims, completely absorbed in Han culture and custom. This kind of circumtances are common. Minority ruler tend to absorbed by the majority. Li Yuan, Li Shimin (Tang Dynasty) is the best example. They have Turkic origin, but later changed to be Han, and all of their decendants were Hans. In East Nusa Tenggara, there are small kingdom, who have muslim royal family (they are minority there). After three generation, they convert to catholic, as the majority religion there.  
     
 
I said "maybe" not "mustbe". So maybe Zhu Yuanzhang, Zhu Yunwen, and Zhu Di were muslims.

EVEN if they were descendants of Muslims (and that is another thing to prove by itself), it does not mean they were Muslims. They would have to have shown some credible direct display or profession of the Islamic faith to be considered Muslims. This "undercover Muslim" proposition seems more like another self-contained conspiracy theory ... "they did all that stuff so that no one would suspect them".

--------------------

How about this. Looks close to the real Zhu

 

 

How do you know what the real Zhu Yuanzhang looked like?

Why does this guy have "Hui" features? I have seen other old Chinese paintings featuring people with "special faces"? Is Zhong Kui a Hui too?

--------------------

Zhu Yuanzhang went to become a buddhist monk at his teenage days because his family was too poor, but later his buddhist temple had to ask him to become a beggar b'cos it was also too poor to take care of him.

Zhu Yuanzhang was definitely a buddhist and not a muslim.

--------------------

 

Well, I don't understand... Why did it can be a problem in muslim world. Eunuch is common thing in muslim world. So, that's not a big deal.
Well, Islam, like many others religion, doesn't allow homosexuality. But it doesn't mean muslim have to kill the homosexual people. There are no massacre against homosexual people in Islam history. In several muslim countries, homosex are exist, and they don't have to be killed because of their sexual orientation.
youre correct, even in Ottoman empire when a Sultan or Emperor did go to war the gays where also there to salute him, they where allowed todo so. And it is dispicted with a miniature when Murad IV on his horse leaves the palace there where gays wich you could recognize it by their dealers.

i whas little bit late in this thread but must add some info on this quote:

[Note: Sipahi (transliterated in Chinese records as ‘yisibaxi’) is a Persian word meaning ‘soldiers’ – usually cavalrymen (in singular form it is sipasi). It later became the standard term for heavy cavalry in the Ottoman Empire, and also spread to Mogul India where it was the origin of the Anglicised term ‘sepoy’. The link between ‘sipahi’ and ‘yisibaxi’ was ‘discovered’ by me almost accidentally, when I came across the word ‘sipahi’ in a description of the Ottoman army and was struck by the similarity. Some searches on the internet finally proved my hunch to be correct. At that time, I was unaware that the link had already been suggested by “[s]ome Japanese and Chinese scholars”, as reported by Fan Ke in a 2001 article: “Maritime Muslims and Hui Identity: A South Fujian Case”, in Journal of Muslim Minority Affairs, Vol, 21, No. 2, pp. 316, 329n. So Kee Long is more specific in tracing the theory to Maejima Shinji’s two-part study “The Muslims in Ch’uan-chou at the End of the Yuan Dynasty”, in Memoirs of the Research Department of the Toyo Bunko, 31 & 32 (1973-74). The identification of ‘yisibaxi’ as ‘sipahi’ (or a related word, ‘ispah’) is disputed by Chinese scholars like Liao Dake, who favour alternative (but less convincing) identifications like ‘Isfahan’ (after the city in Persia) or even ‘Shahbandar’ (the Persian term for a port superintendent). The names of the Sipahi commanders, who held the rank of Wanhu (‘leader of ten thousand households’), mean ‘Sword of the Faith’ and ‘Commander of the Faith’ respectively, but there is no evidence that their actions were motivated primarily by religion, or that any violence was directed specifically against non-Muslims in Quanzhou.]

A Sipahi (Ottoman Turkish: سپاهی; also transliterated as Spahi, Sepahi, and Spakh) was a member of an élite mounted force within the Six Divisions of Cavalry of the Ottoman Empire. The name ultimately derives from the Persian سپاه (sepâh, meaning "army") and has the same root as the English term "sepoy". The Sipahis' status resembled that of the knights of medieval Europe. The Sipahi was the holder of a fief of land (تيمار tîmâr; hence the alternative name Tîmârlı Sipahi) granted directly by the Ottoman sultan, and was entitled to all of the income from that land, in return for military service. The peasants on the land were subsequently attached thereto.

The Sipahis were originally founded during the reign of Murad I. Although the Sipahis were originally recruited, like the Janissaries, using the devshirmeh system[1], by the time of Sultan Mehmed II, their ranks were only chosen from among the ethnic Turks who owned land within imperial borders[citation needed]. The Sipahi eventually became the largest of the six divisions of the Ottoman cavalry, and were the mounted counterpart to the Janissaries, who fought on foot. The duties of the Sipahis included riding with the sultan on parades and as a mounted bodyguard. In times of peace, they were also responsible for the collection of taxes. The Sipahis, however, should not be confused with the Timariots, who were irregular cavalry organised along feudal lines and known as "sipahi"s colloquially. In fact, the two formations had very little in common.

A tîmâr was the smallest unit of land owned by a Sipahi, providing a yearly revenue of no more than 10,000 akçe, which was between two and four times what a teacher earned[citation needed]. A ziamet (زعامت) was a larger unit of land, yielding up to 100,000 akçe, and was owned by Sipahis of officer rank. A has (غاص) was the largest unit of land, giving revenues of more than 100,000 akçe, and was only held by the highest-ranking members of the military. A tîmâr Sipahi was obliged to provide the army with up to five soldiers, a ziamet Sipahi with up to twenty, and a has Sipahi with far more than twenty.

From the middle of the 16th century, the Janissaries had started to be the most important part of the army, though the Sipahis remained an important factor in the empire's economy and politics. As late as the 17th century, the Sipahis were, together with their rivals the Janissaries, the de facto rulers in the early years of sultan Murad IV's reign. In 1826, the Sipahis played an important part in the disbandment of the Janissary corps. Two years later, however, Sultan Mahmud II revoked their privileges and dismissed them in favour of a more modern military structure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sipahi3.jpg

a sipahi in 16th century

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Battle_...nna.Sipahis.jpg

sipahi's at the battle of vienna  
     
 
 i think if the ming emperor was muslim and hui ,are this mean ming dynastly are ruling by hui not han ? are this mean too the last han people dynastly was sung ?in malaysia a chinese who are become muslim are not more accept muslim as chinese han by the chinese ,han chinese are not really like muslim chinese in malaysia and indonesia this my personal opinion ,anyways how the muslim ming treat the jews if the ming was really a muslim ?,if ming was muslim will triad who was han support the ming during the downfall when manchu invasion off the middle kingdom ?

--------------------

 

selamat pagi but i don't understand this sentence of your's

"in malaysia a chinese who are become muslim are not more accept muslim as chinese han by the chinese "

selamat pagi ,what i mean is mostly chinese in malaysia accept chinese who if they religion are buddhist , christian ,hindu or even jews [there was no jew in malaysia] or no religion as chinese but chinese who become muslim as malay or hui ,i may wrong but many chinese in malaysia will not like they counterpart to become muslim because some history in the past ,i personal think the triad like heaven and earth and little knive will not support ming royalist if ming was a muslim ,or maybe chinese in china view muslim as difference and respect ,again this my personal opinion ,terima kasih and selamat hari merdeka to all malaysia .

--------------------

 
i think if the ming emperor was muslim and hui ,are this mean ming dynastly are ruling by hui not han ? are this mean too the last han people dynastly was sung ?in malaysia a chinese who are become muslim are not more accept muslim as chinese han by the chinese ,han chinese are not really like muslim chinese in malaysia and indonesia this my personal opinion ,anyways how the muslim ming treat the jews if the ming was really a muslim ?

Actually, Muslims would have had to (and in those days, did) treat the Jews better than they would have treated the Han. Jews are, after all, "dhimmis", so-called "people of the book". The Han, with their traditional non-Abrahamic religion, would have been outright "kufr" like the Hindus, and lower than the Jews as far as Muslims are concerned.

--------------------

"If an archeologist calls something a finial, he usually he has no idea what it is"
"We Vandals get blamed for stuff that was actually done by some errant Lombard or Visigoth"
"Nationalism is much about forgetting as it is about remembering"
 i think if the ming emperor zhu yuanzhang was a muslim ,can his descendant apostasy to became a buddhist or other religion ?anyways i watched many history and wuxia tvb serias[i not understand mandarin so i seldom watch seria from taiwan and china drama ] they never mention zhu as a muslim ,if the ming was a muslim are this mean princess chang ping was a muslim ,he marry chow sai hin in buddhist stlyle as i watched in tvb serias' dai lui far' which started by charmaine sheh and steven ma .

--------------------

chinese history forum are wrote by winner . 
     
 

youre correct, even in Ottoman empire when a Sultan or Emperor did go to war the gays where also there to salute him, they where allowed todo so. And it is dispicted with a miniature when Murad IV on his horse leaves the palace there where gays wich you could recognize it by their dealers.

i whas little bit late in this thread but must add some info on this quote:

 

A Sipahi (Ottoman Turkish: سپاهی; also transliterated as Spahi, Sepahi, and Spakh) was a member of an élite mounted force within the Six Divisions of Cavalry of the Ottoman Empire. The name ultimately derives from the Persian سپاه (sepâh, meaning "army") and has the same root as the English term "sepoy". The Sipahis' status resembled that of the knights of medieval Europe. The Sipahi was the holder of a fief of land (تيمار tîmâr; hence the alternative name Tîmârlı Sipahi) granted directly by the Ottoman sultan, and was entitled to all of the income from that land, in return for military service. The peasants on the land were subsequently attached thereto.

The Sipahis were originally founded during the reign of Murad I. Although the Sipahis were originally recruited, like the Janissaries, using the devshirmeh system[1], by the time of Sultan Mehmed II, their ranks were only chosen from among the ethnic Turks who owned land within imperial borders[citation needed]. The Sipahi eventually became the largest of the six divisions of the Ottoman cavalry, and were the mounted counterpart to the Janissaries, who fought on foot. The duties of the Sipahis included riding with the sultan on parades and as a mounted bodyguard. In times of peace, they were also responsible for the collection of taxes. The Sipahis, however, should not be confused with the Timariots, who were irregular cavalry organised along feudal lines and known as "sipahi"s colloquially. In fact, the two formations had very little in common.

A tîmâr was the smallest unit of land owned by a Sipahi, providing a yearly revenue of no more than 10,000 akçe, which was between two and four times what a teacher earned[citation needed]. A ziamet (زعامت) was a larger unit of land, yielding up to 100,000 akçe, and was owned by Sipahis of officer rank. A has (غاص) was the largest unit of land, giving revenues of more than 100,000 akçe, and was only held by the highest-ranking members of the military. A tîmâr Sipahi was obliged to provide the army with up to five soldiers, a ziamet Sipahi with up to twenty, and a has Sipahi with far more than twenty.

From the middle of the 16th century, the Janissaries had started to be the most important part of the army, though the Sipahis remained an important factor in the empire's economy and politics. As late as the 17th century, the Sipahis were, together with their rivals the Janissaries, the de facto rulers in the early years of sultan Murad IV's reign. In 1826, the Sipahis played an important part in the disbandment of the Janissary corps. Two years later, however, Sultan Mahmud II revoked their privileges and dismissed them in favour of a more modern military structure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sipahi3.jpg

a sipahi in 16th century

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Battle_...nna.Sipahis.jpg

sipahi's at the battle of vienna

 

Chinese Ming Dynasty & Islamic Influences

1368-1644 AD - The period of the Chinese Ming dynasty which brought to fore Islam’s heights in Celestial China under the aegis of her archetypical emperor- Chu Yuan-chang (better known as Hung Wu) who traced his Muslim roots to Madeenah in Saudia.

1372 AD - A Tausug mission was sent to Imperial China that, up to this time, had only received sovereign states; Jolo would send more missions in the years following.

- Sabah Journal reported a Ming envoy, Prince Sahib ul-Kahar Ong Sum-ping to have sailed through the Sulu Archipelago to Kinabatangan in North Borneo and established a permanent Chinese foothold in that vast uninhabited island.

1380 AD - Arab judge-cum-scholar, Sheikh Karim ul-Makdum (Arabic for Afather@), arrived in Sulu from Melaka; He built the first mosque at Tubig Indangan in Simunul Sulu and advanced Islamic teaching to neighboring islands but died at Tandu Banak in Sibutu Sulu without ever returning home.

1386 AD - Admiral Cheng Chi-lung was installed as chief of the the Eastern hemisphere; his son Kuo Hsing-yeh (Koxinga to the Europeans) was better known in tactics and strategy is today revered as national hero in China.

1390 AD - Srivijayan Raja Baguinda, a minor ruler of Minangkabau, arrived in Sulu from Swarna Dwipa and founded the town of Bwansa in Jolo Island; His other compatriots, fleeing incoming Majapahit warriors, settled in Negri Sembilan (a state in present-day Malaysia).

1400-1440 AD – China reportedly sent naval expeditions to the coastal towns of present-day Philippines for forty years to familiarize with Moro piratical activities plying the south China Sea even engaging in desultory conflicts with Japanese corsairs.

1402 AD - Temasek ruler Parameswara, again running from invading Majapahit warriors, moved north to Muar and founded a Melaka settlement; He also embraced Islam on marrying a princess from Samudara Pasai and named himself Sultan Iskandar Shah of the Sultanate of Melaka to honor his ancestor Raja Iskandar Zulkarnain (the Macedonian greatman Alexander the Great).

- Melakan Sultan Shah sent a mission to Imperial China in 1405 for which admiral Chengho returned the courtesy in 1409; Shah himself went to China in 1411 AD - with a retinue of four-hundred-fifty confederates accompanied by Chengho himself.

- Melakan Sultan Shah’s home government reforms included specifying the functions of civil service offices like bendahara" (prime minister), temenggong laksamana" (admiral) and "shabandar" (harbor master) and adopted the custom of having ceremonial "white-and-yellow" umbrellas for royalties; He also laid the foundation of present-day Malay court procedures.

1403 AD - Melakan Sultan Shah was visited by a Chinese envoy Yin Ching, and admiral Chengho who arranged for his 1411 China visit; For this effort, Chengho was revered by the locals as the Venerated Sam-po Kong and built for him a baronial temple in Melaka.

1405-1433 AD - Ming emperor Yung Lo sent for seven naval expeditions from his Yangtze estuary to comb the shores of the Eastern Hemisphere employing 27,800 military crew in 1,180 Asampans@ and commanded by Muslim admiral Chengho; Chengho died in 1433 in Calicut (present-day Calcutta). According to Nichol, about the same period, another Chinese envoy was sent to Sulu corollary to this colossal plan of emperor Yung Lo.

1406 AD - Brunei Sultan Ahmad (a.k.a. Pateh Berbai) sent an envoy to Imperial China which occasion inspired him to change his north Bornean settlement to Brunei from a Sanskrit word Abarunai.

1408 AD - Chinese admiral Pei Pei Hsein, who was originally in the expeditionary fleet of Sam-po Kong that earlier visited Melakan Sultan Shah, was forced to land in Jolo because of monsoon rains and settled for sometime in Maubuh beach where he built a deep-well artesian as a gesture of gratitude for local hospitality.

- Early Jolo Chinese settlers revered him on his death as Poon-tao Kong, Athe Celestial,@ and interred his immortal remains at Jati Tunggal in Indanan Sulu where a memorial tombstone stands today.

- Islam widely spread to the North Borneo island in the Darvel Bay area.

1417 AD - Sulu Eastern Nakura Paduka Batara, together with Western Nakura Maharajah Gemding and Northern Nakura Paduka Balabu, including three-hundred-thirty-four Tausug nobles, visited Dezhou town in Shandong China on invitation of the Ming emperor Yung Lo.

- Nakura Paduka Batara of the northern kingdom, however, fell ill in Dezhou and died, necessitating Emperor Yung Lo to order his ministers to honor the distinguished guest with a funeral befitting a visiting king.

- Other tribute bearing missions were sent between 1420-1454 but contacts abruptly ended in 1473 when the Brunei leaders started to control the foreign policy of the Royal Sultanate of Sulu which is now under their governance.

1433 AD - A Seven-Datu-Council codified the Code of Kalantiaw (by Kalantiaw) and the Maragtas Code (by Sumakwel) for the people of Panay Island; Three Adatus from the original ten who came to Panay left for Batangas and Mindoro; Datu Putih was one of them but eventually returned to North Borneo from where no trace of him was found.

http://www.asiawind.com/forums/read.php?f=...i=943&t=943

 

Ming dynasty is MUSLIM!!!?

Author: Huang Baoxin (---.brunet.bn)
Many people question the identity of the first Ming emperor, Zhu Yuanzhang or Hongwu Emperor. Some claim that he was a Muslim of Semitic (Semu) origin.

Yusuf Chang, a Chinese Muslim from Taiwan, was one of those who made this claim. He claimed that his ancestor had married a Ming princess and thus he was a descendant of Zhu Yuanzhang and knows the secrets of the Islamic religion of the Ming royal family.

He presented many startling evidences to support his claim. They are:

1. When Zhu Yuanzhang was young, his family perished in a famine and he buried them by wrapping them in white clothes. Wrapping the dead in white cloth is a Muslim custom.

2. Zhu Yuanzhang's closest associates were Muslims. Thus, the Ming dynasty was founded by Muslims.

3. Zhu Yuanzhang passed a strict law forbidding 'wine'. Once he had the son of his close associate killed for breaking the law. 'Wine' is strictly forbidden in Islam.

4. Empress Ma (Zhu's consort) was a Muslim. She had personally cook all the meals for Zhu, even after he had become the Emperor.

5. The royal colour of the Ming dynasty was green, the colour which symbolizes Islam.

6. Zhu Yuanzhang ordered the building of a mosque in Nanjing after he ascended the throne and he personally wrote a poem praising Islam and the Prophet Muhammad. This poem is seen by Muslims as the 'syahada' the testimony of Zhu's faith in Islam.

7. Many Muslims rose to high ranks during the Ming dynasty. One good example was Admiral Zheng He. Admiral Zheng He's fleet sailed to Mecca, Arabia and performed the 'haj'. Yusuf Chang claims that Zheng He was sent by the Ming emperor to perform the 'haj' on his behalf because the emperor was not able to do so as he wanted to keep his religion a secret among the non-Muslim masses. This practice is allowed in Islam.

8. The Ming dynasty established good ties with many Muslim countries. This is because the Ming dynasty is MUSLIM and the religion of the Ming royal family is ISLAM.

http://www.asiawind.com/forums/read.php?f=...i=945&t=943

 

Asiawind forums is a favourite hang-out of people with all kinds of wacky theories about China. I wouldn't believe anything I read there.

I have seen Eurocentric history and Sinocentric history, but increasingly I'm seeing on the internet what I'd term Islamocentric history. One more reason for historians to weep.

BTW, the official colour of the Ming was not green - it was red, same as the Song dynasty. And even if it was, green is one of the colours in the Five Phases cycle, and need not have anything to do with Islam. Otherwise we could say the Environmentalist movement is Islamic.

--------------------

I have seen Eurocentric history and Sinocentric history, but increasingly I'm seeing on the internet what I'd term Islamocentric history. One more reason for historians to weep.

LOL!
You would weep over things that non-historians read?
99.9% of the people that believe in these theories tend to be non-historians with minute Gra'gh.

--------------------

You would weep over things that non-historians read?

Yes, because non-historians have a tendency to believe what they read, and then spread it further.

The people with real influence in the world are not the historians, but the ideologues. And the uses that ideologues put distorted versions of history to can be very destructive indeed.

--------------------

 Zhu Yuanzhang passed a strict law forbidding 'wine'. Once he had the son of his close associate killed for breaking the law. 'Wine' is strictly forbidden in Islam.

From what I read, zhu yuanzhang was a buddhist monk. Why is it that some muslims are trying to spread some propaganda ?

Wine is also forbidden in buddhism. And so is meat (which include pork), so does that mean that buddhist are also muslims ? To be strict, true buddhist are vegetarians.  
     
 
Wine is also forbidden in buddhism. And so is meat (which include pork), so does that mean that buddhist are also muslims ? To be strict, true buddhist are vegetarians.

In fact buddhist do not necessary have to avoid consuming meat, they simply must avoid killing. As long as the animal was not killed specifically for them(which includes purchasing the meat) they have not broken this rule. It's a small distinction but one that is noneless important.  
     
 
豬年話豬：明朝皇帝“禁豬”事件　
　

一。 先介紹兩個現代人。

 

周有光 ，我國德高望重的著名語言學家 ，任中國社會科學院研究生院研究員、語言文字應用委員會研究員，他的話可是有份量的 ，以他的年齡和身份沒必要嘩眾取崇的。他說： “遼、金、元、明、清這五代的1000年，都是外族打進中原來加以統治的。 其中遼、金、元、清是外族，大家都是同意的， 明朝是不是外族呢？ 現在新的考證說明太祖朱元璋不是漢族而是回族，這已經證明了。 ”

 

陳梧桐，著名明史專家，中央民族大學教授， 兼任中國明史學會理事、朱立璋研究會顧問。 他對周有光上麵的話反駁， 但他的反駁軟弱無力，基本都是推測或者主觀上的。 這從反麵證實了周有光的觀點。

二。關於周有光和陳梧桐的辯論的原文。

陳梧桐的辯論如下：

著名語言學家周有光一語激起千層浪───
認為朱元璋是回族人的學者，主要有三個方麵的原因，這三個原因是否站得住腳？

陳梧桐先生認為，目前一些認定朱元璋是回族的論說都是站不住腳的。

明武宗的禁豬令是否和朱元璋是回族有關？

還有人以明武宗正德十四年（1519年）南行途中，曾於十二月間在儀真（今江蘇儀
征）下令禁豬，在該縣行祭祀孔子禮時，也不供豬頭而供羊頭，來表明他是信奉伊
斯蘭教，遵守禁食豬肉教規的回族。

陳先生指出，得出這種結論是因為對史實不了解造成的。明武宗的禁豬令講得非常
清楚，他之所以禁豬是因為他本人屬豬，又姓朱，與其宗教信仰沒有任何關係。禁
豬令一出，當時南直隸、山東等地的村市居民被迫宰殺所養的豬，連小豬也都埋掉，
明武宗在儀真祭孔時，無豬可用，隻得用羊頭替代豬頭來供奉孔老夫子。明武宗本
人既不信奉伊斯蘭教，也不忌食豬肉，有明一代，宮廷禦膳，就從未斷過豬肉。據
《大明會典》的記載，負責置辦禦膳的光祿寺，每年所用牲口數達30100頭，其中就
有豬18900頭。
有大量史料證明，朱元璋是地地道道的漢族人。

陳先生介紹，在朱元璋親撰的《朱氏世德碑》、《皇陵碑》以及各種詔敕詩文和各
種文獻史籍中，都未見到朱元璋本人或者他的前輩、後裔信奉伊斯蘭教的記載，卻
有大量崇信佛、道的記載。

三。百歲老人周有光教授沒有回答陳先生，相反，周有光教授卻在讀者雜誌道歉，
說自己誤信了國外的研究成果。我來代替周教授駁斥一下著名明史專家陳梧桐。

1。陳說：“有人以明武宗正德十四年（1519年）南行途中，曾於十二月間在儀真
（今江蘇儀征）下令禁豬，在該縣行祭祀孔子禮時，也不供豬頭而供羊頭，來表明
他是信奉伊斯蘭教，遵守禁食豬肉教規的回族。
陳先生指出，得出這種結論是因為對史實不了解造成的。明武宗的禁豬令講得非常
清楚，他之所以禁豬是因為他本人屬豬，又姓朱，與其宗教信仰沒有任何關係。”

果然與其宗教信仰沒有任何關係麽？請看：

明朝皇帝禁止養豬，記載的有：“九月，上次保定(河北省清苑縣)禁民間養豬，著
為令。”《明書武宗本紀》； “上巡幸所至，禁民間畜豬，遠近屠殺殆盡，田家有
產者，悉投諸水。”《明實錄武宗實錄》

依據明武宗朱厚照（1506─1521在位）對各宗教的評論和《禦製尊真主事詩》。武
宗評論各宗教日：“儒者之學雖可以開物成物，而不足以窮神知化。佛老之學，似
類窮神知化而不能複命歸真。蓋諸教之道各執一偏，唯清真認主之教，深源於正理，
此所以乘萬世與天壤久也。”《尊真主事詩》日：“一教玄玄諸教迷，其中奧妙少
人知，佛是人修人是佛，不尊真主卻尊誰？”

結論：明武宗朱厚照禁豬和與其宗教信仰不是沒有任何關係，而是大有關係。

2。陳說：“在朱元璋親撰的《朱氏世德碑》、《皇陵碑》以及各種詔敕詩文和各種
文獻史籍中，都未見到朱元璋本人或者他的前輩、後裔信奉伊斯蘭教的記載”

其實並不然，朱元璋登基後敕建清真寺於南京、西安及滇、閩、粵等地區。南京清
真寺賜名“淨覺寺”落成後，並禦製至聖《百字讚》賜清真寺，《百字讚》讚頌了
真主和穆聖，並褒揚了伊斯蘭，如果對伊斯蘭沒有感情和深刻的認識，寫不出如此
傑作。《百字讚》收錄於清代劉智著作《天方至聖實錄》內，其全文如下：“乾坤
初始，天籍注名，傳教大聖，降生西域，受授天經，三十部冊，普化眾生，億兆君
師，萬聖領袖，協助天運，保庇國民，五時祈佑，默祝太平，存心真主，加誌窮民，
拯救患難，洞徹幽冥，超拔靈魂，脫離罪業，仁覆天下，道冠古今，降邪歸一，教
名清真，穆罕默德。至貴聖人。”

結論：明史專家再次對曆史“撒謊”

四。證明明朝皇帝是穆斯林的證據是兩本書
1。19世紀，在土耳其發現了旅行家賽義德阿裏.阿克巴爾哈塔伊
於1516年(即回曆922年，明武宗正德十一年) ，用波斯文寫的《中國紀行》一書。
全書共2l章，用較多的篇幅介紹了明代中國伊斯蘭教的情況， 特別記述了明代王
室與伊斯蘭教的關係。中國張至善、張鐵偉、嶽家明三人以英、德譯本和新波斯文
本為依據， 編譯成漢文本，並附有國際上對該書研究之論文13篇,照片和圖表7幅,1988年
,由三聯書店出版。
波斯旅行家賽義德·阿裏·阿克巴爾·哈塔伊於1500遊曆中國，於1516年在當時奧
斯曼帝國首都君士坦丁堡，用波斯語寫成《中國紀行》一書，作為禮物奉獻給土耳
其素丹賽利姆一世。該書全麵介紹了當時中國社會各方麵的狀況。作者出於穆斯林
的宗教感情，以較多的篇幅著重介紹了明朝王室與伊斯蘭教的關係，說：“宮廷內
有皇帝專用的清真寺，有宣禮員，主麻日（星期五）皇帝到城外的清真寺做聚禮，
以及穆斯林文臣武將對明朝開國的貢獻、皇帝對他們的重用等。說：“從皇帝的某
些行為看，他已信奉伊斯蘭教了，然而由於害怕喪失權力，他不能對此公開宣布。
這是因為他的國家風俗和法規所規定的……。”阿裏·阿克巴爾的描述是他親眼所
見，與中國民間的傳說相吻合。

2。台灣馬明道參照該書及明正史、野史、史學家的評述、回民口碑傳說， 對明朝
王室的族屬和宗教信仰進行了詳盡的研究考證， 於1973年寫出《明朝皇家信仰考初
稿》一書。 確認朱元璋、馬皇後及其家族和親戚均為回回。 明太祖洪武帝姓朱，
名元璋，字國瑞，原名興宗，生於安徽鳳陽縣，古稱濠州，其周圍各縣，如定遠、
壽縣、懷遠、臨淮等為曆史上回回聚居區。父名朱世珍，母陳氏，生兄弟四人，元
璋排行第四，長兄興隆，次兄興盛，三兄興祖，全家務農，地僅數畝，頗貧寒。鳳
陽城為一南北長、東西窄的長方形小城，西門直對東門，兩門之間為一長街，將風
陽城分為南北兩部分，稱南城與北城，北城居民幾乎全部都是漢民；而南城居民全
部為回民，其中絕大多數姓朱，有清真寺一所，位於南城中央偏西。朱元璋生於南
城朱姓群內，按常理推，朱元璋應為回回。1935年，馬明道先生隨其兄馬宏道先生
(1899一1968)到鳳陽考察訪問，當時所見所聞和當地回民父老所說與上述情況相符。

 

最後，現在的學術界對明朝皇帝是穆斯林所謂持審慎的態度，也許是為了一些人的
所謂大漢族自尊心，是怕更多的少數民族皇帝開創中國曆史的事實。這樣，元，明，
清三朝的近千年曆史都有少數民族統治地位。個人認為，中國的曆史學者應該擺脫
成見，做個名符其實的學者，中國是56個民族組成的，這是事實，還曆史以真相有
什麽不好的麽？何必要如此拙劣的掩飾？關於明朝皇帝是穆斯林，詳細參見我的相
關文章。

 

 

--------------------

Asiawind forums is a favourite hang-out of people with all kinds of wacky theories about China. I wouldn't believe anything I read there.

I have seen Eurocentric history and Sinocentric history, but increasingly I'm seeing on the internet what I'd term Islamocentric history. One more reason for historians to weep.

BTW, the official colour of the Ming was not green - it was red, same as the Song dynasty. And even if it was, green is one of the colours in the Five Phases cycle, and need not have anything to do with Islam. Otherwise we could say the Environmentalist movement is Islamic.

Lol, i wonder where is Red Turban army is from!!!!!! Yeah im really sure its green. So whats with this lovesue guy is he a supporter for the muslims and claims Ming dynasty was established by muslim influence?

P.S No offence but, i hope his not the second version of chinghiz...........

best regards,
Intem

This post has been edited by intem: Feb 20 2007, 04:44 AM  
     

Nice Info thanks   
     

I think I have posted this before,

If Zhu Yuanzhang was a Muslim, why did he hide his faith? Tell me in history which Muslim leaders were clandestine about their religion? Why would we need historians to "read between the lines" to establish him as a Muslim?

- If Zhu was afraid that the Han peoples wouldn't support him if he were Muslim, then i tell you, Mohammed the Prophet had even the more difficult task of converting Arabs to Islam, in the beginning!!!

- Why did not Zhu declare Ming China a Muslim state? Why did not Islamic states of Southeast Asia, especially the Malacca Sultanate mentioned in the Sehajah Melayu that Ming were Muslim??

- You would think Ming would had more dealings with Muslim Arabs, but Jesuits featured prominently in Ming courts?

- Wouldn't Ming went on a jihad and convert all around them to Islam? The Ottoman turks did spread Islam into Europe, as well as the Moors in Spain.

- We expect to find then in Fengyang, Nanjing and Beijing grandoise mosques that we now see in Istanbul and other Muslim states, but where were they?

I've heard some pretty wacky theories regarding Chinese history. I've heard Eurocentric, Afrocentric, Pan-Altaic theories, but now apparently Muslims want their piece of the Chinese pie. Not that I have anything against Muslims, the Hui are an integral part of China historically and presently but arguing that the Ming was an Islamic state is a bit of a stretch. The reason people don't accept this is simply because it's not true.  
     
 

I think I have posted this before,

If Zhu Yuanzhang was a Muslim, why did he hide his faith? Tell me in history which Muslim leaders were clandestine about their religion? Why would we need historians to "read between the lines" to establish him as a Muslim?

- If Zhu was afraid that the Han peoples wouldn't support him if he were Muslim, then i tell you, Mohammed the Prophet had even the more difficult task of converting Arabs to Islam, in the beginning!!!

- Why did not Zhu declare Ming China a Muslim state? Why did not Islamic states of Southeast Asia, especially the Malacca Sultanate mentioned in the Sehajah Melayu that Ming were Muslim??

- You would think Ming would had more dealings with Muslim Arabs, but Jesuits featured prominently in Ming courts?

- Wouldn't Ming went on a jihad and convert all around them to Islam? The Ottoman turks did spread Islam into Europe, as well as the Moors in Spain.

- We expect to find then in Fengyang, Nanjing and Beijing grandoise mosques that we now see in Istanbul and other Muslim states, but where were they?

first of all this is my first post in this thread so i needed to pick up were you started. and i'm allso a noob when it comes to chinese history(but thats why I am here to learn)

What if the Ming emperor was Muslim... I DON'T THINK SO.. why well I have a couple of speculations.

1. The Emperor was known as a God on earth if he was muslim he couldn't possibly claim this title.(and if he did the peopel wouldn't be that loyal to him anymore)
2. There would be clear documents of this.
3. Just because Zheng He was muslim doesn't make teh Emperor Muslim.

these are for the Emperor personaly....

As for the people....

Why do people convert to certain religions?

1. Main reason is they get conquered
2. Leaders convert for political reasons(this is why the Turks converted to Islam to be in controle of teh Caliphate(all Muslim territory) wich they did. The chinese would do the same)
3. They have bno choice but to accept the religions(Romans with christianity)

and if the Emperor was Muslim I'm saying if.......That doesn't make the people automaticly muslim does it

 
     
1. emperor aren't god on earth. That's Japan, not China. China believes the righteous receives mandate from heaven. At most they are called God's son. But I think even that translation is misleading. It probably just means chosen one of the heaven, as Zi means person instead of son.

2. there wouldn't. Because Ming fought against the mongolians on the basis of driving away foreign invaders. To declare he now believes in a foreign god (Muslim has yet to integrate into a part of Han core culture) is self-defeating.

3. The emperor grow up in a city with a large muslim population, he even grow up in the muslim part of that city. the emperor buries his parents by wrapping them in white cloth, that is a pure muslim tradition, not Han.

--------------------

So whats your point, you mean Emperor Hong Wu was a muslim.........? Do you have any evidence to proove that he lives and grow up in a city with large population of muslims.

 

 2. there wouldn't. Because Ming fought against the mongolians on the basis of driving away foreign invaders. To declare he now believes in a foreign god (Muslim has yet to integrate into a part of Han core culture) is self-defeating.

Why wouldn't a Muslim leader declare himself a Muslim? Even Islam wasn't a core Han culture should not prevent Zhu Yuanzhang from doing so, if he ever was a Muslim. He would dearly wish to emulate Mohammed the Prophet in converting the Han Chinese to Islam. When Mohammed spread Islam, it wasn't in any case a core culture of the Arab world! There were Muslim Ming generals who fought with Zhu to overthrow the Mongols, so why was Zhu so secretive about his faith?

Note that Zhu Yuanzhang used to be a Buddhist monk, perhaps for survival, that would make him a very sinful Muslim. Or unless you declare now he converted to Islam later in life.

It is not surprising that some people claim Zhu Yuanzhang a Muslim, others a Jurchen, as Zhu was a prominent figure in Chinese history, for their own agenda.

One more point I would like to make is, if Zhu was a Muslim (secret or not), wouldn't the Qing historians picked that up to discredit the Ming in the eyes of the Han Chinese?

http://www.chinaheritagequarterly.org/edit...l.php?issue=005

In the early life of the founder of the Ming dynasty, Zhu Yuanzhang (Fig. 11), the emperor-to-be was a member of a religious sect known as Mingjiao. Upon ascending the throne, Zhu suppressed this movement and all traces of his earlier association with it. The resulting ambiguity in the historical record has allowed room for the widespread belief amongst Chinese Muslims today that Zhu Yuanzhang was a Muslim, at least in his private life.[7] There is little direct evidence to support such a view, and historians generally agree that the Mingjiao sect was organised around some form of Manicheanism or Maitreyan Buddhist cult. What can be said without straining the historical record is that many of the generals who joined the revolutionary movement led by Zhu Yuanzhang were Muslim, for example Mu Ying and Chang Yuchun, who campaigned in Yunnan and central Shandong, respectively. These two areas later became leading centres of Islamic learning in China. (Figs 12 & 12a)

Bai Shouyi, in a 1946 work on the history of Islam in China, told of an inherited belief within the Muslim community in Xi'an that Zhu Yuanzhang was born into a Muslim family, that the "usurping" Jianwen emperor went on pilgrimage to Mecca after fleeing from China, and that the 11th Ming emperor, Wuzong (Zhu Houzhao, reign title Zhengde, r.1506-1522), was a practising Muslim. Bai Shouyi did not discuss the historical credibility of these communal beliefs, and a low-level debate has continued since then on whether the first Ming emperor was actually Hui or Han. Evidence cited in favour of claiming him for the Hui side is that Zhu Yuanzhang had an empress called Ma, a common Hui surname; that a domed tomb was built at his burial site in the manner of Muslim dignitaries of the time; and that he wrote a tract in praise of the Prophet Muhammad. Two recent additions to this debate were printed in Zhonghua dushu bao in 2005, Zhou Youguang advancing the case in favour of Zhu Yuanzhang being a Muslim (see "Baisui laoren Zhou Youguang da kewen" (Centenarian Zhou Youguang answers reporter's questions), Zhonghua dushu bao, 22 January 2005), and Chen Wutong countering against this view (see Chen, "Shei zhengmingle Zhu Yuanzheng shi Huizu" (Who has ever proved that Zhu Yuanzhang was a Hui?), Zhonghua dushu bao, 15 June 2005, at http://culture.people.com.cn/GB/40479/40481/3484545.html, accessed on 6 Mar 2006).

Perhaps most who claim Zhu Yuanzhang was a Muslim are Muslims themselves......

http://www.aasianst.org/absts/2006abst/Interarea/I-224.htm

Outing Ming Taizu: How and Why Did Zhu Yuanzhang Become a Muslim?

Zvi Ben Dor Benite, New York University

In recent years, Chinese historiography has undergone a radical ‘opening up’ in all senses of the term. While for much of the past century Chinese historians took Chinese claims about the uniformity of Chinese culture at face value, scholars are now probing the multicultural realities that lie behind ‘Han’ Chinese cultural chauvinism. On the face of it, the Ming period is much more immune to such challenges than the Qing. One fascinating, little-documented feature of this history is the longstanding Muslim claim that the great Ming founder was secretly a Muslim.

Chinese Muslim traditions cast Ming Taizu as an almost gnostic figure, whose true nature could only be properly understood by those like him – by other Muslims. The claim cast Ming Taizu as a secret laborer for Islam, as Chinese Muslims themselves secretly labored for the imperium. This interpretation gave Chinese Muslims a metaphoric means of understanding themselves as central, if hidden, members of Chinese society and culture.

This paper projects Chinese Muslim visions of Ming Taizu upon the broader historical backdrop of the late imperial period, unearthing the reasons that Ming Taizu came to be of such vital importance to Chinese Muslim tradition. Drawing on hitherto unknown source materials, the paper shows how Chinese Muslims of the Ming and Qing, like other ‘aliens’ of the period, were extraordinarily aware of their time as a multicultural one, and were consequently able to understand themselves as central to its culture, and even make political demands on that basis.

Although Zhu was not a Muslim, some of his generals who fought with him and assisted him in founding a new dynasty like Chang Yuchun, Mu Ying, Hu Dahai, Tang He, Deng Yu were Huihuis and ranked among the highest in the newly founded Ming dynasty. This is fact.

http://www.aboutxinjiang.com/zt/Islam/CHAP...se%20Inland.htm

According to legend the name of the Jing Jue Mosque is connected to Zhu Yuanzhang, founder of the Ming Dynasty (on the throne 1368-1398 A.D.). Legend has it that among the Hui Huis in Nanjing: Chang Yuchun, Hu Dahai and other Muslims generals often went to the San Shan Jie Mosque for prayer. One day, Zhu Yuanzhang went to the Mosque to look for them for an important matter. Seeing them performing prayer in the hall, he stepped in without thinking. According to Islamic Law, no one could enter prayer hall with shoes, so the mosque server standing aside asked him to take off his shoes, and Zhu Yuanzhang took his foot back. After that, the Mosque was renamed Jing Jue when he ordered to rebuilt it. ('Jing Jue' literally means clean and conscious, its pronunciation is similar to 'Jin Jiao' (pronounced as Jin Jue in the Nanjing dialect) which means to step foot inside)  
     
 
http://www.aboutxinjiang.com/zt/Islam/CHAP...se%20Inland.htm

According to legend the name of the Jing Jue Mosque is connected to Zhu Yuanzhang, founder of the Ming Dynasty (on the throne 1368-1398 A.D.). Legend has it that among the Hui Huis in Nanjing: Chang Yuchun, Hu Dahai and other Muslims generals often went to the San Shan Jie Mosque for prayer. One day, Zhu Yuanzhang went to the Mosque to look for them for an important matter. Seeing them performing prayer in the hall, he stepped in without thinking. According to Islamic Law, no one could enter prayer hall with shoes, so the mosque server standing aside asked him to take off his shoes, and Zhu Yuanzhang took his foot back. After that, the Mosque was renamed Jing Jue when he ordered to rebuilt it. ('Jing Jue' literally means clean and conscious, its pronunciation is similar to 'Jin Jiao' (pronounced as Jin Jue in the Nanjing dialect) which means to step foot inside)

//According to legend //

Which legend? Can you provide the source such as which book and so on?

The website you provided have the wrong picture of real portait of Zhu Yuan Zhang, who have about 5-6 portaits.

Following were close to real.

 

Following portraits were far away from real ZhuYuanZhang:

 

 

http://www.chinaheritagequarterly.org/edit...l.php?issue=005

Fig. 11 Detail of a portrait of Zhu Yuanzhang in the collection of the National Museum of China.

 

From those portraits, Zhu is likely a Semu but not a muslim from Han.

--------------------

//According to legend //

Which legend? Can you provide the source such as which book and so on?

The website you provided have the wrong picture of real portait of Zhu Yuan Zhang, who have about 5-6 portaits.

...

From those portraits, Zhu is likely a Semu but not a muslim from Han.

Great. Now he is not only a Muslim but a Semu to boot.

First of all, there is no firm evidence that he was a Muslim from ANY ethnic group. He was raised Buddhist, lived Buddhist and died Buddhist.

Secondly, none of the portraits show any features that would be out of place in a Han person. Looking somewhat homely or having a few bold features does not prove one is of foreign racial origin.

 

--------------------

2. there wouldn't. Because Ming fought against the mongolians on the basis of driving away foreign invaders. To declare he now believes in a foreign god (Muslim has yet to integrate into a part of Han core culture) is self-defeating.

Why wouldn't a Muslim leader declare himself a Muslim? Even Islam wasn't a core Han culture should not prevent Zhu Yuanzhang from doing so, if he ever was a Muslim. He would dearly wish to emulate Mohammed the Prophet in converting the Han Chinese to Islam. When Mohammed spread Islam, it wasn't in any case a core culture of the Arab world! There were Muslim Ming generals who fought with Zhu to overthrow the Mongols, so why was Zhu so secretive about his faith?

Note that Zhu Yuanzhang used to be a Buddhist monk, perhaps for survival, that would make him a very sinful Muslim. Or unless you declare now he converted to Islam later in life.

The thing is he wasn't a Buddhist monk. As it wasn't a Buddhist temple. sources are in the Chinese article posted on top of this page, that includes the sources of Zhu Yuan Zhang growing up in a muslim side of the city. I am a little lazy to translate now, so wait till when i am in the mood.

And Zhu is different from other Muslim leaders because in the middle east, they raised their banner in name of denoucing false prophets and gods and idols.

Now Zhu raised their banners to drive away foreign invaders.

And it's because the middle east muslim leaders were fighting powers that believed in many gods and idols.

Zhu was fighting against an enemy that simply were foreign invaders.

And since his target was different, he had to draw supporters with different slogans, and therefore he cannot make his empire a target of his own slogans after he has the position. Zhu was scared for his position. That is why he was still killing his comrades almost till the very end of his life.

--------------------

Note that Zhu Yuanzhang used to be a Buddhist monk, perhaps for survival, that would make him a very sinful Muslim.

I would think between starvation and temporary enslavement, most people (Muslims included) would go for the latter.
So it doesn't really matter if Zhu was a Muslim or not.
And if those two books should prove Zhu's Islamic leanings, I could say that he had Islamic leanings so as not to alienate one of the most powerful and influential minorities of his times - the Muslims. Why? Because during the Yuan dynasty they were the clerks, taxmen and staffed the various bureaucratic offices that kept the Yuan dynasty going. Now if you are going to replace the Mongols, you have to show to the expert staffs that you are not going to ruin their lives.

If the coverup is considered clumsy, the claims are even worse:
The first source is a gift to the Ottoman Sultans saying that China is a Muslim nation.
Keep in mind that around the same century, the Europeans said that the Prester John and the Gran Khan of Cathay were ardent Christians and hate "Mohammedans".
The second source is a contemporary work done by, presumably, Muslims again.
If you believe in the claims, you have an issue. I won't even call Zhu a buddhist. He's an autocrat through and through, and religion is only a tool.
Now that's my kind of guy.

This post has been edited by Sephodwyrm: May 7 2007, 12:07 PM

--------------------

This is seriously lame crap.
I won't give even a cent to this whole Muslim business.
If they had to rely on what is termed "Folk History"

And I don't really care if the Ming had Muslim Emperors, or not.
You can even call the Ming emperors closet Christians and it won't change a thing.
I would think between starvation and temporary enslavement, most people (Muslims included) would go for the latter.
So it doesn't really matter if Zhu was a Muslim or not.
And if those two books should prove Zhu's Islamic leanings, I could say that he had Islamic leanings so as not to alienate one of the most powerful and influential minorities of his times - the Muslims. Why? Because during the Yuan dynasty they were the clerks, taxmen and staffed the various bureaucratic offices that kept the Yuan dynasty going. Now if you are going to replace the Mongols, you have to show to the expert staffs that you are not going to ruin their lives.

If the coverup is considered clumsy, the claims are even worse:
The first source is a gift to the Ottoman Sultans saying that China is a Muslim nation.
Keep in mind that around the same century, the Europeans said that the Prester John and the Gran Khan of Cathay were ardent Christians and hate "Mohammedans".
The second source is a contemporary work done by, presumably, Muslims again.
If you believe in the claims, you have an issue. I won't even call Zhu a buddhist. He's an autocrat through and through, and religion is only a tool.
Now that's my kind of guy.

why, just because it's not the main stream it's crap?

whether Zhu is muslim or not isn't important to most poeple, but it is interesting to people who likes history and scholars who studies history. in reality who really cares if Han or Roman were better army? but it certainly is interesting to a lot of people on this forum.

it is a theory with enough evidence.

I don't know if he was Muslim.

but one evidence that makes me feel it is plausible is that the shrine he served at his youth was built with gate opening to east. most Han buildings are built with gate facing south. EVERYONE knows houses should have gate facing the south. Gate facing east means the wall in line with the gate would face west, and that's where Mecca is.

Why would a buddhist temple built to have gate facing east when buildings in those days were built according to tradition.

This post has been edited by naruwan: May 7 2007, 02:00 PM

--------------------

Gate facing east means the wall in line with the gate would face west, and that's where Mecca is.

Pure BS.
The Gates should face east if its a Muslim mosque, since the people would be praying to the West. People don't pray towards the gate where the people are coming in. Whats even worse, is that Qibla is 39 degrees North in Beijing and 23 degrees North in Canton. Not much of a variation. The gates should face south according to Qibla.

And I never said those sources are crap because its not mainstream.
I said those sources are crap because they were written by authors who have just as much interest to portray a Muslim China.
If we were to consider these sources seriously, we might as well consider the tales about Prester John and the Gran Khan (people don't even know if Marco Polo really saw Kublai or not) as authentic history and not a myth.
If your argument consists of putting words in other people's mouth instead of really discussing about the assumptions of each side, you are inept.

--------------------

The Gates should face east if its a Muslim mosque, since the people would be praying to the West. People don't pray towards the gate where the people are coming in. Whats even worse, is that Qibla is 39 degrees North in Beijing and 23 degrees North in Canton. Not much of a variation. The gates should face south according to Qibla.

And I never said those sources are crap because its not mainstream.
I said those sources are crap because they were written by authors who have just as much interest to portray a Muslim China.
If we were to consider these sources seriously, we might as well consider the tales about Prester John and the Gran Khan (people don't even know if Marco Polo really saw Kublai or not) as authentic history and not a myth.
If your argument consists of putting words in other people's mouth instead of really discussing about the assumptions of each side, you are inept.

how is what you said different from what i said.

READ.

--------------------

The Gates should face east if its a Muslim mosque, since the people would be praying to the West. People don't pray towards the gate where the people are coming in.

You know, I just thought of something. With the world being confirmed as round, would it technically be OK for Muslims to pray toward the east when they should be praying towards the west and vice versa? 

 It is not a theory with "enough" evidence. It is a theory ... period. One with very flimsy and circumstantial evidence, plenty of strong counter-evidence, and kept afloat only by historical conspiracy allegations and ethnic nationalist appeals. As if we didn't have enough of that "Jurchen Ming" theory, we inexplicably keep returning to this "Muslim Ming" theory, with its new spawn, the "Muslim Semu Ming" theory. Maybe we should set those two camps against each other and go out for tea. Then again, given how ardently they cling to their pet theories despite repeated debunking, we'd probably return to be faced with some new "Muslim Jurchen-Semu Ming" theory.

--------------------

Why would Zhu Yuanzhang HAD to be a Muslim living in a Muslim part of the city, if the claims were true? If there is anything in it, it probably showed he had contact with Muslims and perhaps understood their culture and beliefs.

but one evidence that makes me feel it is plausible is that the shrine he served at his youth was built with gate opening to east. most Han buildings are built with gate facing south. EVERYONE knows houses should have gate facing the south. Gate facing east means the wall in line with the gate would face west, and that's where Mecca is.

Everyone know it is impossible to have EVERY houses to face south. While it is ideal it is simply impractical. The city will look impossibly awkward with every houses facing south? Anyway, while these are ideal principles we know a lot of structures goes against the "rules" and were built with other considerations such as topography, siting and existing adjacent buildings. Almost every imperial cities of Chinese dynasties does not adhere strictly to the principles of the wangcheng (Imperial city) stipulated in the kaogongji. Look at Tang Chang'an and Ming Beijing.

As for those portraits, if you ask me, it's six for one, half a dozen for the other. who living in this epoch has really seen him?

So far, IMHO, all the evidences on all fronts show Zhu respected Islam as a religion, like he respected Buddhist monks, but that does not make him a Muslim.  
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Why would Zhu Yuanzhang HAD to be a Muslim living in a Muslim part of the city, if the claims were true? If there is anything in it, it probably showed he had contact with Muslims and perhaps understood their culture and beliefs.

but one evidence that makes me feel it is plausible is that the shrine he served at his youth was built with gate opening to east. most Han buildings are built with gate facing south. EVERYONE knows houses should have gate facing the south. Gate facing east means the wall in line with the gate would face west, and that's where Mecca is.

Everyone know it is impossible to have EVERY houses to face south. While it is ideal it is simply impractical. The city will look impossibly awkward with every houses facing south? Anyway, while these are ideal principles we know a lot of structures goes against the "rules" and were built with other considerations such as topography, siting and existing adjacent buildings. Almost every imperial cities of Chinese dynasties does not adhere strictly to the principles of the wangcheng (Imperial city) stipulated in the kaogongji. Look at Tang Chang'an and Ming Beijing.

As for those portraits, if you ask me, it's six for one, half a dozen for the other. who living in this epoch has really seen him?

So far, IMHO, all the evidences on all fronts show Zhu respected Islam as a religion, like he respected Buddhist monks, but that does not make him a Muslim.

what are you talking about?

yes, in any organized city in China, most of the houses faces the south. Temples and any kind of religious building especially would follow this tradition, well, religiously.

You know, I just thought of something. With the world being confirmed as round, would it technically be OK for Muslims to pray toward the east when they should be praying towards the west and vice versa?

we had all these what would muslims do when they need to pray in another thread.

including questions such as what would muslims do on a plane? in space? at either poles of the earth? it doesn't just have to do with the direction to mecca but also the times in which they need to pray.

QUOTE
I'm sorry, but the amount of evidence you've presented isn't enough by a stretch of the imagination. We've already shown plenty of evidence that many Ming emperors were fervent Daoists. The evidence of that were far more abundant than your islamic hype.

good, i don't recall me saying all Ming emperor are Muslims? And I don't recall seeing evidence saying Zhu Yuan-Zhang was a Taoist either.

Zhu Yuan-Zhang also fought under a religious banner at the beginning. Though it certainly wasn't Buddhism or Muslim. In fact I don't even know how to categorize the religion besides some sort of Maitreya cult. The fact that 韓林兒 Han Lin Re called himself 救世明王 Bright King, Savior of the World is full of religious meanings. Just the fact the empire was named after that shows at first it was important symbol to the followers of Zhu Yuan-Zhang.

This post has been edited by Zuo Zongtang: Yesterday, 07:23 PM

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You guys are looking too much into the house facing direction thing.

House facing south seems to be a chinese culture rather than any religion.

Please also remember that buddhist in the olden days pray to the land of amitabha which is in the west.

I read somewhere that zhu yuan zhang was a buddhist monk.

There are many possibilities of the house facing a certain direction.

1. It is based on buddhist concept.

2. It is based on the five elements of fire, water, earth, metal, wood to match with his birthdate.

3. It could be just random.

4. It could be just facing a better scenery like lake, hills ie. good fung shui.

So don't read too much into this mecca thing.

 

You guys are looking too much into the house facing direction thing.

House facing south seems to be a chinese culture rather than any religion.

Please also remember that buddhist in the olden days pray to the land of amitabha which is in the west.

I read somewhere that zhu yuan zhang was a buddhist monk.

Buddhist do not pray to one direction.

the "old days" Buddhist don't pray. They recite Buddha's teachings.

Amitabha praying is a rather late development in Buddhism.

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You guys are looking too much into the house facing direction thing.

House facing south seems to be a chinese culture rather than any religion.

Please also remember that buddhist in the olden days pray to the land of amitabha which is in the west.

I read somewhere that zhu yuan zhang was a buddhist monk.

There are many possibilities of the house facing a certain direction.

1. It is based on buddhist concept.

2. It is based on the five elements of fire, water, earth, metal, wood to match with his birthdate.

3. It could be just random.

4. It could be just facing a better scenery like lake, hills ie. good fung shui.
So don't read too much into this mecca thing.

I agree 100%. It is so tenuous that it is not even worth the energy to discuss it.

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I agree 100%. It is so tenuous that it is not even worth the energy to discuss it.

For Chinese building to face south there is a scientific reason.

All the reason xng listed shows he does not fully understand Chinese architectures. Why buildings in China faces south is a very basic knowledge.

Central Plains is just a huge open area, with no significant mountains in east to west directions.

That means cold air travels directly from the arctic and sweeps over the entire plain.

Gate facing north would leave openings facing the cold air. Making it unbearable in the winter. Having gates facing east or west opens windows facing north.

Therefore most if not all traditional buildings are built with the gate facing south. That means it has a wall on the north side, which blocks cold air in the winter. This also creates the idea that the east wing is more important than the west wing. Because in the summer west wing gets the setting sun and becomes hotter. We can go in to all that in some other forum, but i doubt this is something new on the forum.

Only for some other reason, for example, religion, defenses would any Han Chinese historic buildings to be build with gate facing any direction other than south. Muslim temples for example, is built with gate facing east so at the other end the wall would face west.

buddhist temples are built facing the south.

And it's because of that nature that for a temple gate to face east built during that period of time is inconsistant with Buddhist temples.

The general concept is designed into the city

 

Take Tang dynasty's Changan for example, notice how the main entrance of the palaces gates only faces south.

 

temple in Xi-An notice the google earth compass

but then again, i have no way of knowing whether the article is telling the truth about the orientation of the Huang-Jue-Si. Now known as 龍興寺 in 滁州 Chu Zhou. Since the google's map of the area is very poor. and i can't find anything online either.

 

 

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 tenuous: stretched, thin, flimsy.

I am unconcerned with the reasons for the traditional orientation of Chinese structures. I am concerned about the tenuous nature of the connection being made between the orientation of a shrine and the religion of a person who once resided there, as well as the other tenuous connections being made on this thread in a most perplexingly persistent and grandly groansome campaign to hold this fringe fantasy of an Islamic Chinese dynasty together.

 

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I agree. Few people in china in the past and present was very religious. They were more concerned with bread and butter issues.

The thing that influences most chinese people the most is fung shui ie. how to bring fortune to the family and not religion.

Even the tombs of dead relatives are facing certain good fung shui. The buildings in hong kong are facing certain good fung shui etc.

The owner is not dumb enough to have the house/office facing south if he knows the fung shui there is not good just to satisfy the traditional belief that all houses faced south in olden china.

QUOTE
Buddhist do not pray to one direction.

the "old days" Buddhist don't pray. They recite Buddha's teachings.

Amitabha praying is a rather late development in Buddhism.

Amitabha vows was spoken by gautama buddha and it was in one of his sutra. It is NOT a late development in buddhism.

But a buddhist won't positioned his gate to face a certain direction just because of religion. He may pray/chant to the west where amitabha land is. And that is sufficient.

 

I agree. Few people in china in the past and present was very religious. They were more concerned with bread and butter issues.

The thing that influences most chinese people the most is fung shui ie. how to bring fortune to the family and not religion.

Even the tombs of dead relatives are facing certain good fung shui. The buildings in hong kong are facing certain good fung shui etc.

The owner is not dumb enough to have the house/office facing south if he knows the fung shui there is not good just to satisfy the traditional belief that all houses faced south in olden china.

Fung Shui itself was developed out of Taoism.

Ancient Chinese were very religious. Otherwise there wouldn't be something called "the mandate of the heaven". Unless you think that is something scientific.

Regardless, I have said the orientation of Chinese buildings is a scientific result, not religious.

Therefore for some shrine to be build against science and common knowledge would require some religious influence.

All mosque build in Chinese was on a east to west axis. So if the shrine Zhu Yuanzhang served as a young man was indeed build on a east to west axis, there is great chance that it was not a Buddhist temple.

QUOTE
Amitabha vows was spoken by gautama buddha and it was in one of his sutra. It is NOT a late development in buddhism.

But a buddhist won't positioned his gate to face a certain direction just because of religion. He may pray/chant to the west where amitabha land is. And that is sufficient.

i have never said "buddhist" temples would face a certain direction becuase of religion.

why you continue to twist my words is unimaginable to me.

you must have some really serious stake in this matter.

I said Muslim shrine would face east west axis in china for religious purposes.

While buddhist temples follows the Chinese tradition and are build on a north south axis.

QUOTE
Amitabha vows was spoken by gautama buddha and it was in one of his sutra. It is NOT a late development in buddhism.

But a buddhist won't positioned his gate to face a certain direction just because of religion. He may pray/chant to the west where amitabha land is. And that is sufficient.

what sutra?

the closest to original buddhism is the Agama teachings. The rest developed much later.

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QUOTE
With the world being confirmed as round, would it technically be OK for Muslims to pray toward the east when they should be praying towards the west and vice versa?

I don't really know. I just know that the direction is actually North according to modern day calculations and if I were to make a logical guess about the direction the gates should be facing east.

The best way to find out is to look at mosques contemporary to the Ming era.
From what I have read, Islamic scientists have estimated that the Earth is indeed a globe with a diameter of 10000++ km. We also have to understand that the re-discovery of the New World did not occur in Europe until 1492 and the maps did not come until 1500s. As for that pig killing business, my crux is this:
Pig sounds synonymous with the royal surname.

In any event, if historiography is in the hands of second rate pseudo-historians, I would say that 150 years down the line, they might make an assumption that the CCP are closet Muslims since they have are "very considerate of Muslim needs". Its the year of the Pig, and no Pig advertisements are shown on CCTV public broadcasts. That's a good evidence. Mmmmm...

QUOTE
I agree. Few people in china in the past and present was very religious. They were more concerned with bread and butter issues.

That's the strength of the Chinese psychology, the best relic of Confucianist thought.
Arguments about religion make people upset easily.
But if you're a true independent man, you'd laugh about it.

QUOTE
I said Muslim shrine would face east west axis in china for religious purposes.

You made the assumption that the gates open west, which is erroneous, and then you broadened your argument.
Fancy, that.
An Islamic Society has Islamic characteristics, foundations and events.
All of which are absent in Ming China.
I am more inclined to say that Ming China is a collaborative multi-ethnic state, just as it had been for most parts of Chinese history.

This post has been edited by Sephodwyrm: May 9 2007, 02:03 PM

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An Islamic Society has Islamic characteristics, foundations and events.
All of which are absent in Ming China.
I am more inclined to say that Ming China is a collaborative multi-ethnic state, just as it had been for most parts of Chinese history.

I am going to say this a final time.

If that house is build on muslim foundation, it would have muslim symbols like the moon or dome structure. And that is more important than facing any direction.

I don't know why people want to twist history by saying that zhu yuan zhang was a muslim when history has said he was a buddhist monk before becoming emperor.

 
     
 

In any event, if historiography is in the hands of second rate pseudo-historians, I would say that 150 years down the line, they might make an assumption that the CCP are closet Muslims since they have are "very considerate of Muslim needs". Its the year of the Pig, and no Pig advertisements are shown on CCTV public broadcasts. That's a good evidence. Mmmmm...

BINGO! 

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It's quite simple, really. If Zhu Yuanzhang was a Muslim, we would know about it. If he were a non-Chinese Muslim, we would certainly know about it. The reality is -- and this is common knowledge among people who have studied Chinese history -- that he was a Han Chinese from eastern central China. The two provinces in this area, Anhui and Jiangsu, are 99% Han. There's no big conspiracy to hide his true Semu identity.

This post has been edited by Conan the destroyer: May 9 2007, 05:40 PM

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Yeah. Especially since China likes to boast about her great minorities.
We knew that Man Gui, Ma Gui, Zheng He and many others were minorities that achieved some form of recognition in the Ming dynasty.
And then we also know about Niu Jinxing, Lao Huihui (I forgot his name) that were the more notorious ones.

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but one evidence that makes me feel it is plausible is that the shrine he served at his youth was built with gate opening to east.

So if the shrine Zhu Yuanzhang served as a young man was indeed build on a east to west axis, there is great chance that it was not a Buddhist temple.

You are not even certain if the "shrine" was a mosque or not and you would think that Zhu Yuanzhang was plausibly a Muslim?

You built your assumptions on reductive analysis...

"it is great chance that it was not a Buddhist temple" (sic) and therefore it is a mosque? and therefore Zhu a Muslim? Quite far-fetched i reckoned, really.
 

There are two motivations that I see:
1. Muslims that want to feel good about themselves
2. People that view Muslims and Islam as second rate, and want to associate this second-ratedness to China.

I think there is another problem. Some people are willing to be fools for conspiracy theories and hidden histories, seeing themselves as being heroically counter-establishment if they support fringe revisionism, even if they do not believe in those movements themselves. 

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I agree. Few people in china in the past and present was very religious. They were more concerned with bread and butter issues.

The thing that influences most chinese people the most is fung shui ie. how to bring fortune to the family and not religion.

Even the tombs of dead relatives are facing certain good fung shui. The buildings in hong kong are facing certain good fung shui etc.

The owner is not dumb enough to have the house/office facing south if he knows the fung shui there is not good just to satisfy the traditional belief that all houses faced south in olden china.

I'm not sure if you're saying what I think you're saying, but it's not accurate to say that historical, traditional, ancient Chinese societies were particularly lacking in religiosity, and also inaccurate to say that the religiosity most Chinese in ancient time was concerned only with food. Modernity has a huge and devastating impact on the religiosity of the Chinese. Over 90% of Daoist priests were forced to become laymen some times after the Communists took over China. Buddhism suffered, though not to the same extent. Traditional Chinese thought was greatly criticized during Min Guo, early Communist rule, and especially during the Cultural Revolution (this critique on tradition, mostly that of Kongzi, all started arguably from Taiping Revolution). Although some strands of Chinese religious traditions remain strong overseas, it's questionable how much religious sophistication these overseas communities can maintain when the religious communities were in such demise in the mainland. It's hard to imagine that a religion like Dao Jiao can thrive when so much of its memory, so many of its sacred places, were under a rule that almost eliminated its existence. Many overseas adherents were also laborers who left China to look for work, and it's questionable how much religious knowledge they had beyond very basic folk elements.

In places like Hong Kong and Taiwan, there are some strong religious traditions of Dao Jiao and Buddhism. Hong Kong's Qing Zhong Guan is quite famous. Taiwan has no lack of Daoist masters. However, with the demise of Dao Jiao in Mainland, it's hard to imagine that these "refugee" Daoists can have a great impact in promoting "orthodox" and sophisticated Dao Jiao. Hence, the more "folk" stuff becomes more popular and well-known.

I've read that China is trying to bring back traditional cultures, so may be we'll see some restoration in the future.

The development of nationalism and market economy also "displaced" the importance of traditional Chinese religions to a great extent, but I won't go into details now.

The point is, though, it is a modern hindsight to say that Chinese are, as a people, less religious than others. Historically, a great portion of Chinese culture is religious culture. The Chinese Mahayana Buddhist canon fills about 80 big volumes. The Zheng Tong Daoist Canon fills about 60+ mid-sized volumes (less than the Mahayanist Canon, but still a LOT.) To feel the immensity and volume of these texts, go to a library that has them. For example, the East Asian library at UC Berkeley has both canons, and they are quite a sight. I don't think the Shifu Zangshu contains more works than each of these canon (may be about the same amount?), and the Shifu Zangshu is the main collection of the traditional Chinese literary works. It's a strange thing to say that the Chinese on the whole were particularly non-religious, when so many of their texts are religious texts.

A great deal of Chinese religious culture is precisely to move away from material gains, ironically enough. Look at the most well-known Dao Jiao and Chinese Buddhist texts -- they are often concerned with quietude of mind, trascending material dependence, ethics and morality, avoiding bad karma and punishment, etc. Not a great deal on material gains. (See, for example, Tai Shang Xuan Min Chao Ke and Tai Shang Xuan Min Wan Ke, i.e. the Morning and Evening Prayer/Meditation of Chuan Zhen priests, which is still in use today.)

One might raise the question that these things belong to more elitist sectors (scholars, monks, priests) and don't affect the general population, but such a contention is unlikely. Many popular movements in ancient China were religious, and they weren't only concerned with "praying for money and food." Material well-being is an important concern of Chinese folk religion, but it was not the only concern. The Daoist and Buddhist clergies have a great impact on the lives of the popular masses. Outside of Dao Jiao and Buddhism specifically: many communities revolve around the ancestral shrines, and religious devotion to ancestors isn't only about food and money; it is mostly about family and respect for ancestors/elders, and it's a bit absurd to say that "family and respect" cannot be religious values when family and respect for parents are almost universal values in the world's religions.

Not trying to nitpick your post. Just want to raise legitimate doubt about the hindsight myth about Chinese religious culture.

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just about 20 or 30 years ago, things such as 中原普渡 Ghosts day plus City Guardian inspection, 媽祖出巡 Ma-zu touring, Buddha's birthday, Guan-Gong's birthday were huge deals in Taiwan. It is still a huge deal today, but just 20 years ago, it was even more so then.

To say Chinese people weren't religious yet at the same point and laugh at Zhu Yuan-Zhang could have been a Muslim theory is hypocritical.

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In Quan Zhou, last names 郭、丁、夏、馬、金、葛、蒲、卜、哈、鐵 were most likely Muslim decendents. Doesn't have to mean they are still Muslim today.

Were there lack of Muslim Chinese during that Soong-Yuan-Ming period? Say, 蒲壽庚 or 蒲日和? Or Zheng He? Muslims had a bigger influence back then then people give them credit. Had 蒲壽庚 helped the Soong navy, could the "Mongolians" dominate over Soong navies?

Muslims had a greater influence back then in China than people tend to give them credit.

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Muslims had a greater influence back then in China than people tend to give them credit.

No one is discounting that.
In fact that was one of my fundamental reasoning why any Chinese dynasties would appear to be open to Muslims (and then be wrongly regarded as a Muslim dynasty).
Another thing is that most Muslims in China tend to be settled immigrants from Arabia, Persia and Central Asia. I do not know about the number of converts since any religion that wasn't affiliated with peasant uprising doesn't make it to the "fanatic" scale of mass conversions. If anything, the Muslims in China were sinified. They took Chinese surnames. It would be more fair for me to say that China naturalized Muslims into the imperial dynastic setting.

But characterizing the Ming dynasty as a Muslim dynasty, or Zhu as a Muslim, is stretching things a bit. If someone is a great achiever and is a Muslim minority we would know about it. Chinese would not mind a Muslim Emperor. But I believe most people on CHF has a more stringent evidence requirement to buy this <> theory. I could also say that Wanli is a Christian since he allowed Matteo Ricci into his court and loved his clocks. That has another cartful of speculation and more solid evidence. But mainstream historians would say no.

Say history is a science. If you want to prove that the Ming dynasty is Muslim, you have to show aspects of Muslim-ness in the Ming dynasty. You can't say, yeah, Ming dynasty is a Muslim dynasty, but they hide their Muslim-ness because it would upset Chinese people.
That's complete BS.

This post has been edited by Sephodwyrm: May 10 2007, 11:20 AM

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I could also say that Wanli is a Christian since he allowed Matteo Ricci into his court and loved his clocks. That has another cartful of speculation and more solid evidence. But mainstream historians would say no.

Don't forget the Kangxi emperor. 

 

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Don't forget the Kangxi emperor.

LOL.
But I have to be Ming-centric here.

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Were there lack of Muslim Chinese during that Soong-Yuan-Ming period? Say, 蒲壽庚 or 蒲日和? Or Zheng He? Muslims had a bigger influence back then then people give them credit. Had 蒲壽庚 helped the Soong navy, could the "Mongolians" dominate over Soong navies?

Muslims had a greater influence back then in China than people tend to give them credit.

Chang Yuchun, Mu Ying, Hu Dahai, Tang He, Deng Yu, who fought alongside Zhu Yuanzhang, were Muslim Huihuis and ranked among the highest in the newly founded Ming dynasty, no one can deny.

Notwithstanding the historical contribution of China's Muslims' which is of greater influence than what general public would tend to think, it still wouldn't make the Ming founder a pseudo Muslim, let alone a real one.

 
    

it still wouldn't make the Ming founder a pseudo Muslim, let alone a real one.

I would play the devil's advocate here just to make fun of the other side.
But Zhu hated people killing Zhu (pigs)!!!!
That makes him a Muslim!!!!
ARGH!!!

Ok. I'm done.
That was brilliantly fun.

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But Zhu hated people killing Zhu (pigs)!!!!

That would make him a non-Muslim. And his surname sounds like "pig", that would surely make him a non-Muslim, even more!!!

Did those two words sound the same in Wu-Yu during early Ming dynasty already? The two words sounds different in Middle Chinese and before.

豬【唐韻】陟魚切，【集韻】【韻會】張如切

朱【唐韻】章俱切，【集韻】【韻會】鐘輸切，【正韻】專於切

This post has been edited by naruwan: May 11 2007, 04:33 AM

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Or maybe Zhu was a Muslim because he was a Manichean!
Lets draw more connections here...
You have to be Muslim to believe that Han Shantong is a descendant of the Song royalty.
Or that Liu Futong is the Maitreya (laughing) Buddha!
Woah!!!
And then outlaw the Manichean non-sense afterwards!
Double Woah!!!
And then ban words that sound synonymous with Seng, Zei and others.
And since Zhu had an accent you can't say Ze either.
Nor Sheng.
Triple woah!!!

Its funny when pseudo-historians take my jokes seriously.

no one is taking you seriously.

Zhu Yuan-Zhang did not ban pig killing.

but 明武宗 emperor Wu of Ming did. He claimed that it was because he was born on the year of the boar. But I doubt it had too much to do with the fact his last name sounds the same as the character pig. If that is the case, then every emperor should have done it.

 

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But Zhu hated people killing Zhu (pigs)!!!!

That would make him a non-Muslim. And his surname sounds like "pig", that would surely make him a non-Muslim, even more!!!

Some Muslim does have surname sounds like "pig" in ancient time and even now. Following are some evidence.

those web sites are for your reference:

http://xz5.2000y.net/mb/1/ReadNews.asp?NewsID=217883
http://www.nxnews.net/382/2004-11-18/[e-mail]
http://www.huizucn.com/xscx.htm
http://www.lz.zbjn.com/show.aspx?id=142&cid=51

二十一。問：朱姓沒有回族的說法

答：安徽、河南朱姓回族人數不少。 朱元璋出生的地方，起義的地方安徽鳳陽臨淮關（古代壕州），那裏的確是回民的聚居地，有一座清真古寺，鳳陽縣城裏有很多朱姓回民，曾經號稱朱半城， 但是那裏現在已經沒有他的後裔了。

朱延齡 1924年12月生，河南平輿人，河南省許昌市城內清真寺阿訇。他從1938年起學習阿拉伯語、古蘭經》及***教文學。1951年至今連任許昌市城內清真寺阿訇。自1979年以來，任中國***教協會第四次會議代表，伊協第五、六、七屆委員會委員，河南省***教協會第一、二、三、四屆副會長，許昌市***教協會第一、二屆會長，魏都區伊協會長。1984年參加中國朝覲團赴麥加朝覲。1999年9月在河南省第三次民族團結進步表彰大會上是受表彰的模範人物，同時在第三次全國民族團結進步表彰大會上，被國務院授於民族團結進步模範稱號。為貫徹落實黨的民族宗教政策，增進民族團結，促進經濟發展，保持社會穩定和兩個文明建設做出了積極貢獻。

朱兆襄 高級工程師。回族，1944年8月生，遼寧黑山人。1967年畢業於東北工學院鋼冶係冶金爐專業，現任甘肅省白銀有色金屬公司冶煉廠總工程師。

 

二十五。問：回族中的馬姓 朱姓

答：馬 (horse)
回族中的馬姓最為多，故有著“十個回回九個馬”之說。馬姓主要來自祖名（經名）首音。如“我教之馬，則多為阿拉伯人名之譯音。如Muhammad,Malud,Malik,Maalnnud,等名；首音，均可以馬字譯也。”這也就是“以名為姓”的演化過程。在穆斯林當中，取尊貴的聖名穆罕默務為經名者最多，且聖名在中國曆史上又曾被“譯”（馬罕默德、馬哈邁德、馬哈馬、馬合麻、馬哈木、馬哈默等），故姓馬的也就多了。再有，穆薩等一些帶有M字頭的經名，在翻譯時，也在向“馬”靠近，如將其譯成“馬沙”等。馬姓，除取祖名（經名）的首音外，還有許多是取自中後部的“馬”。如烏馬兒、亦思馬因、哲馬魯丁、默裏馬合麻之後裔取中間的“馬”，阿合馬之後裔取後部的“馬”。還有，即便是祖名（經名）中沒有“馬”，也因諧音關係，取了馬姓。（《回回姓氏考》）這些“同姓不同宗”馬姓，極大地豐富了回族馬姓的來源。在回族馬姓中，也匯入了一些兄弟民族的馬姓。（《中國回族·河南回族》）回族中的馬姓，也有相當一部分是賜姓。（《中國回族大詞典》）馬姓在中國回族中占比例較大，在國外一些國家和地區也有分布。

朱 (pig)
回族中的朱姓，為明朝皇帝賜給的國姓。“明初，皇帝賜姓有國姓、民姓之別，國姓是皇帝的朱姓”。（《回回姓氏考》）據《殊域周谘錄》，明代哈密回回首領寫以虎仙“與倒婿寅緣俱賜從朱姓，傳升錦衣衛指揮，隨駕南征。”明代大將沐英，“八歲時被朱元章收為義子，從朱姓。”山東有黑姓回回，其先世姓朱，後改為黑，因而在山東臨青縣回回朱黑兩家不分。“朱姓回族主要分布在山東、安徽、江浙一帶。

20 pictures close to real look of Zhu Yuan Zhang.

Some are official pictures,

some are from folks of his time.

.......

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It is very clear that some people here simply deny the fact that the emperor of Ming Dynasty associated with musilim. Therefore, they do or say anything to joke around.

Two related books published and several historians in mainland China and Taiwan achknowledged that emperors of Ming Dynasty were muslim. But some guys here are still talking about "thin evidence""sheer fabirication"

About Buddhist , Zhu did praise them , but at mean time , Zhu limit the development of Buddhist and enccourage the Musilim. For example, man under 40years old and woman under 50 are not allowed to be a Buddhist, each county can only have one temple for buddhist; for Muslim, Zhu build many temples for them. What a difference!

 

朱元璋在“皇覺寺”當“和尚”
《明史》卷一載：“太祖孤無所依，乃入皇覺寺為僧。”黎東方的《細說明朝》記載：“就這樣，從陰曆四月挨到九月，九月裏他進了皇覺寺，受戒當和尚。” 但是，皇覺寺不是通常意義上的佛道教的寺廟，而是一座清真寺，朱元璋出家為“僧”實際上是在清真寺裏做“海裏凡”(經堂學生，西北地區稱“滿拉”)，皇覺寺這一名稱則是朱元璋登基稱帝後所賜的名稱，意為皇帝在此寺中覺醒。皇覺寺位於鳳陽城西門外，是一座坐西向東的寺院。根據中國傳統，凡儒、佛、道教的寺廟、觀均坐北向南，而中國的清真寺一律坐西朝東，因為中國穆斯林做禮拜時，須朝向位於中國西方的麥加天房，皇覺寺正好坐西朝東，且其建築形式與我國清真寺建築形式雷同。

朱元璋稱帝後，對“僧”、“光”、“禿”等的同音字非常忌諱。尉氏（河南尉氏）縣學教授許元，在奏章上有“體乾法坤，藻飾太平。”這兩句話是千年以前的古文，但朱元璋卻解釋說：“法坤與‘發髡’同音，發髡是剃光了頭，諷刺我當過和尚。藻飾與‘早失’同音，顯然要我早失太平。”於是許無被處斬。杭州府學教授徐一夔的表文中有“光天之下”、“天生聖人”等語，朱元璋牽強附會，說文中的 “光”指光頭，“生”是“僧”的諧音，徐是在借進呈表文罵他當過和尚。德安府訓導吳憲的表文中有“望拜青門”之語，朱認為，“青門”是指和尚廟。這些犯了忌諱的，都被“誅其身而沒其家”在朱元璋的淫威之下喪了命。 朱元璋為什麽如此的忌諱和尚？ 原因很明顯。

朱元璋對待佛教的態度。 按常理說朱元璋的“和尚”經曆應該讓他對佛教有種特別的好感，但是明朝的法律卻極力限製佛教的發展：廢除大量的佛教寺院，每縣最多保留一座大觀寺；逼迫大量的僧尼還俗，並規定男40歲以下，女50歲以下不得出家。 而對於當時勢力並不太強大的伊斯蘭教和回族卻采取懷柔政策，敕建了很多清真寺。

朱元璋登基後敕建清真寺於南京、西安及滇、閩、粵等地區。南京清真寺賜名“淨覺寺”落成後頻臨幸，並禦製至聖《百字讚》賜清真寺，《百字讚》讚頌了真主和穆聖，並褒揚了伊斯蘭，如果對伊斯蘭沒有感情和深刻的認識，寫不出如此傑作。《百字讚》收錄於清代劉智著作《天方至聖實錄》內，其全文如下：“乾坤初始，天籍注名，傳教大聖，降生西域，受授天經，三十部冊，普化眾生，億兆君師，萬聖領袖，協助天運，保庇國民，五時祈佑，默祝太平，存心真主，加誌窮民，拯救患難，洞徹幽冥，超拔靈魂，脫離罪業，仁覆天下，道冠古今，降邪歸一，教名清真，穆罕默德。至貴聖人。”另外還依據明武宗朱厚照（1506—1521在位）對各宗教的評論和《禦製尊真主事詩》。武宗評論各宗教日：“儒者之學雖可以開物成物，而不足以窮神知化。佛老之學，似類窮神知化而不能複命歸真。蓋諸教之道各執一偏，唯清真認主之教，深源於正理，此所以乘萬世與天壤久也。”《尊真主事詩》日：“一教玄玄諸教迷，其中奧妙少人知，佛是人修人是佛，不尊真主卻尊誰？”

 

It is intriguing how "marginal" histories without much evidence can be taken as gospel.

It is very clear that some people here simply deny the fact that the emperor of Ming Dynasty associated with musilim. Therefore, they do or say anything to joke around.

Two related books published and several historians in mainland China and Taiwan achknowledged that emperors of Ming Dynasty were muslim. But some guys here are still talking about "thin evidence""sheer fabirication"

NO ONE deny the fact that Ming Dynasty did associate with Muslims, like Zhu Yuanzhang had in his command Muslim generals when conquering China, Admiral Zheng He and his voyages, Ming's emissaries with Malacca Sultanate etc. BUT waitaminute, Ming Dynasty's association with Muslim tantamount to Ming emperors were Muslims? Again, if the Ming Dynasty were Muslim (here you are not talking about a few blokes but the entire royal house) why were there not one clear piece of evidence but all your insinuations were "associations"? Why were the Ming emperors so clandestine about their faith that none of them publicly admit they were Muslims but need a few good souled historians to point out the truth for us by using reductive analysis and associative evidence?

Five hundred years from now, Singapore must surely be a Muslim state, their Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew must be a Muslim, why? he wore white clothes, he made Islam an official religion, he commissioned many mosques to be constructed throughout the country, he had relations with Islamic Malaysia, Indonesia and Brunei...that is how a few academics told us so....

 
     

No one said anything about Zhu Yuanzhang not "associating with Muslim". And that reveals a lot about your debating standards, given how you seem to consider that central to your contention that he WAS a Muslim.

Zhu Yuanzhang's policies on Buddhist temples were based on an intention to consolidate and stabilize the Buddhist presence, not stifle it. And I'm pretty sure that the age limits applied to attaining clergy status, not being part of the laity.

Zhu Yuanzhang also made many moves recognizing and in favor of Daoism, including appointing Daoist priests, supporting Daoist court ceremonies (SRC), standardizing Daoist/Buddhist funeral ceremonies, and promoting Daoist syncretism, even writing a Dao De Jing commentary in 1375 (SRC).

Yeah, you can probably find books claiming him to be Muslim, but you can also find books promoting a lot of unlikely theories (ref: Voyages of the Pyramid Builders). Being published is no guarantee of being correct.

I'm really getting tired of this. For every piece of "evidence" your camp provides, we can provide stronger and many more pieces of counter-evidence. Attempts to pick and choose dots to connect with arguments from ignorance and uncertainty do not stand up to the plain facts that we do have. People who see Zhu Yuanzhang as Muslim are only looking at a narrow convenient view of the evidence and brushing aside the overwhelming facts against that theory. The only way this could happen is if they are Islamist revisionists or compulsive fringe advocates.