LTG2006-03-11 11:05:26回複悄悄話
very moved by your sincere discussion though it is hard for me to say things just because i am also in discussion....
but i just want you all know how much i enjoyed reading your thoughts and ideas....
知凡2006-03-10 23:50:46回複悄悄話
“poetry is like water...it can be contained by vessels of different shapes, but the important element is the "purity" of the poem, not the "purity" as in Puritanism, but the purity that can enrich the soul.....”
“I write for myself, you read for yourself…” 大家共鳴的是poetry/art，暢所欲言，借“題”（詩歌）發揮，我常常受你們的啟發有些想法就說出來，聽到別人說了什麽，我再想再說，我沒有什麽顧忌，說的都是我個人想說的關於poetry/art的直話。。。很開心你與我有共鳴。。。
其實我上次的留言是因為受你們的啟發，對你提出的疑問有我自己的回答，你讀到我的答案了嗎？
“我卻知自己的靈魂在掙紮著生存，隻為尋求一個答案”，我的回答是人生沒有一個答案，“Always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question。。。”
我看到你的博客裏北島舒婷的《一切》《這也是一切》，我很理解，因為我也曾經曆過這樣的思考，我的博客裏也曾轉貼過這兩首詩歌，但是我加了一首作舟的“WALKING THROUGH AN EMPTY CITY”，對我來說，我是三首詩放在一起思考的。。。北島舒婷的詩裏都是判斷句，從我現在的思想來說，人生沒有判斷沒有結論，天人合一，宇宙廣闊無垠充滿奇妙，誰能告訴我什麽是什麽，我自己發現和尋覓。。。北島的十四句排比構成強大的震撼力，但我很少能被人的“強詞奪理”給震撼住，我能感受和思考自己說服自己卻不易被人說服，Evolve/Involve/Resolve”，所以我喜歡讀給我帶來感覺和靈感的詩歌，和你一樣，作舟的詩歌很對我的胃口。。。我感受作舟的詩歌，喜歡作舟用的“EMPTY CITY”，“空”是智慧。。。空的智慧我領悟了很久。。。我無法傳達我領悟的空的智慧給你，因為我也說不清，可我可以給你打一個比方，將“悟空”，領會成孫悟空，小時候我很喜歡孫悟空，因為孫悟空會七十二變，我多希望我也有七十二變的本領，而且我最想變成一個大美女，不僅僅如此，有了七十二變的本領，我還可以實現很多的願望。。。現在我理解的孫悟空和小時候理解的有所不同，七十二變我理解成想像力，人生境界可以不斷地重生和成長，而且孫悟空有緊箍咒，孫悟空好像也是感性與理性的完美結合呢，所以古人真的是很智慧，於是我領悟空，學習孫悟空七十二變的本領。。。其實這隻是一個比方一個適合我自己的比方，我想說的是“We can never be born enough. We are human beings;for whom birth is a supremely welcome mystery,the mystery of growing:which happens only and whenever we are faithful to ourselves.”相信我自己。。。
no worries!! i am sure friends here are not talking about anything personal ... at least, that's how i feel....we are interested in poetry/art, etc... right?
:)
i always feel good about posting here because of friends like all of you.... i have seen too many meaningless and immature forums where people are good at nothing but wasting their time.....
i have learned a lot from you guys.....plus, how can one measure the joy we get from poetry/art/music? such as sd's songs....
Two girls discover
the secret of life
in a sudden line of
poetry.
I who don't know the
secret wrote
the line. They
told me
(through a third person)
they had found it
but not what it was
not even
what line it was. No doubt
by now, more than a week
later, they have
in other
happenings. And for
wanting to know it,
for
assuming there is
such a secret, yes,
for that
most of all.
forgotten
the secret,
the line, the name of
the poem. I love them
for finding what
I can't find,
and for loving me
for the line I wrote,
and for forgetting it
so that
a thousand times, till death
finds them, they may
discover it again, in other
lines
Agree with z.z.'s
poetry is like water...it can be contained by vessels of different shapes, but the important element is the "purity" of the poem, not the "purity" as in Puritanism, but the purity that can enrich the soul.....
that's what poetry is for . . .
地中海人魚2006-03-10 12:38:43回複悄悄話
I write for myself, you read for yourself, that is exactly what I am always thinking.
...used to like 徐小鳳....her voice was unique in some ways, i thought....
thank you, sd, for sharing such a classic!!!! and providing a different voice!!
zf: ...作為一個讀者，我不想說誰的詩“更”怎樣。。。我隻喜歡談感受....
i appreciate your open mind and honesty as always.....and thank you for sharing your 感受.....
please do not compare my poetry with others....that is not the reason i write....i write "for myself"....:) right? i remeber saying that before....
so, "you" also "read for yourself"....!!!
poetry is like water...it can be contained by vessels of different shapes, but the important element is the "purity" of the poem, not the "purity" as in Puritanism, but the purity that can enrich the soul.....
i feel everybody here is talking about or sround the same things.....
:)
cheers!!!!
知凡2006-03-10 08:48:44回複悄悄話
除了作舟的詩歌，我未曾細讀其他各位詩人的詩歌，昨日受你們“比較文學”態度的影響，作為一個讀者，我不想說誰的詩“更”怎樣。。。我隻喜歡談感受，因為我相信自己的感受，而不是任何思想的束縛或其他個人的局限來判斷，如果談詩我常談的是我個人的感受，這是我的"the sense of 自由"。。。我最大的感受是，作舟詩歌與你們詩歌的最大不同是他的詩歌給我的感受是他過的不隻一生，他可以不斷重生，可以永遠年輕。。。我所感受到的是作舟詩歌裏層出不窮的創造力，感覺，靈感。。。等等這些我喜歡的Human Being的特質。。。也是他與mostpeople的最大不同。。。
“我卻知自己的靈魂在掙紮著生存，隻為尋求一個答案”，小人魚，你尋求的是一生的答案還是你對自己的信仰，相信你可以在一生中度過很多的人生的人生答案？如果是，沒有什麽是什麽，在作舟詩歌的思索裏“Always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question。。。”
“We can never be born enough. We are human beings;for whom birth is a supremely welcome mystery,the mystery of growing:which happens only and whenever we are faithful to ourselves.“
I am not "瞎":), I always like to read "NEW POEM"s written by Human Beings...
LTG2006-03-09 17:30:09回複悄悄話
"肉體",靈魂,精神 = A human being; 靈魂,精神 without "肉體", what's that???
::
it should be something inhuman, i.e., a beautiful tree, a majestic eagle, a lovely dolphin, a loyal dog, a funny pussycat, a clever monkey, a hardworking cow, etc., etc...
:))
"It seems to me that ZZ needs more Water..."
yessssssssss .... water in various forms ....some sweet, some bitter, some spicy....
The Beauty can be from tears as well as from laughter.
Poetry does not answer, but guide us to look inward. We are puzzled by life, we struggle, we think, we listen, We're enlightened, we're happy, then we can pass the happiness to people around us. . .
what's the purpose of life? Happiness from heart. Easy, but not easy.
I am glad that we gather here to talk about something which we may not be able to share in our real life.
Write! Express! Cherish! & Celebrate!
"You better slow down.
Don't dance so fast.
Time is short.
The music won't last. "
by a terminally ill young girl in a New York Hospital
ZZ's living room has new guest now. :) Should have more different voices. :))
I'll continue to be an audience as I always was...:)
Have a nice chat!
知凡2006-03-09 13:21:30回複悄悄話
律周, thanks for sharing your sincere thoughts....and your kindness to my "童言無忌":)
影雲, I totally agree what you said... thank you for your kind feedback always...
影雲2006-03-09 10:58:20回複悄悄話
No standard measurement for poetry/art . . . so feel good for whatever you feel . . . the world is full of wonders (in all the forms, from the invisible to the unimaginable) and we don’t have to feel all to “prove” we’re good . . . and neither a poem needs all the images in it to be great!
When I say mountains and ocean, I mean the feelings, even feelings behind feelings, not mere images. zz’s poems are spiritual and enlightening which does not mean he does not the struggle or pains for life; instead, he seeks for how to live the fullest of life. His poems are lightness born out of heaviness. lz’s poems seemingly focus on the outside world, but the feelings hidden his poems are deep.
The way we express ourselves may have something to do with our life experiences.
律周, that's why you said: "詩歌是條不錯的船,水能載舟亦能覆舟."??????
but many times, I can feel 山 when I see 海; I can feel 海 when I see 山...and I can feel other skys between 山 and 海......I don't know why?
I think this is my way of reading poetry and observing this world...
I agree yy: "詩本身就是思索".... and I really like the poems such as ZZ's "Each the different, Each the same" and many others....Li-Young Lee "Every Circle Wider"....etc. because I can feel they are thinking so deep......touched my deep heart...
but i just want you all know how much i enjoyed reading your thoughts and ideas....
小美人魚，
謝謝你誠懇的交流，我說話有些直率，所以我喜歡詩歌，因為詩歌的“purity”，心中沒有顧忌，我就可以暢所欲言，我就可以“不恥瞎說”:))感覺到“自由”的快樂，對我來說，我願意參加討論最希望能和大家的思想火花碰撞，引發我的思考，獲得我的疑問的答案和更有意思的疑問。。。“與君一席話，勝讀十年書”，我在作舟雙壁軒裏“混”了一年多，我可是思想進步不小:))
“I write for myself, you read for yourself…” 大家共鳴的是poetry/art，暢所欲言，借“題”（詩歌）發揮，我常常受你們的啟發有些想法就說出來，聽到別人說了什麽，我再想再說，我沒有什麽顧忌，說的都是我個人想說的關於poetry/art的直話。。。很開心你與我有共鳴。。。
其實我上次的留言是因為受你們的啟發，對你提出的疑問有我自己的回答，你讀到我的答案了嗎？
“我卻知自己的靈魂在掙紮著生存，隻為尋求一個答案”，我的回答是人生沒有一個答案，“Always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question。。。”
我看到你的博客裏北島舒婷的《一切》《這也是一切》，我很理解，因為我也曾經曆過這樣的思考，我的博客裏也曾轉貼過這兩首詩歌，但是我加了一首作舟的“WALKING THROUGH AN EMPTY CITY”，對我來說，我是三首詩放在一起思考的。。。北島舒婷的詩裏都是判斷句，從我現在的思想來說，人生沒有判斷沒有結論，天人合一，宇宙廣闊無垠充滿奇妙，誰能告訴我什麽是什麽，我自己發現和尋覓。。。北島的十四句排比構成強大的震撼力，但我很少能被人的“強詞奪理”給震撼住，我能感受和思考自己說服自己卻不易被人說服，Evolve/Involve/Resolve”，所以我喜歡讀給我帶來感覺和靈感的詩歌，和你一樣，作舟的詩歌很對我的胃口。。。我感受作舟的詩歌，喜歡作舟用的“EMPTY CITY”，“空”是智慧。。。空的智慧我領悟了很久。。。我無法傳達我領悟的空的智慧給你，因為我也說不清，可我可以給你打一個比方，將“悟空”，領會成孫悟空，小時候我很喜歡孫悟空，因為孫悟空會七十二變，我多希望我也有七十二變的本領，而且我最想變成一個大美女，不僅僅如此，有了七十二變的本領，我還可以實現很多的願望。。。現在我理解的孫悟空和小時候理解的有所不同，七十二變我理解成想像力，人生境界可以不斷地重生和成長，而且孫悟空有緊箍咒，孫悟空好像也是感性與理性的完美結合呢，所以古人真的是很智慧，於是我領悟空，學習孫悟空七十二變的本領。。。其實這隻是一個比方一個適合我自己的比方，我想說的是“We can never be born enough. We are human beings;for whom birth is a supremely welcome mystery,the mystery of growing:which happens only and whenever we are faithful to ourselves.”相信我自己。。。
老實說，我一本哲學書沒讀過，都是道聽途說，但讀作舟的詩歌，可以說我在他的詩歌裏獲得了不少人生智慧，哲思和藝術的享受。。。至少那是我讀到的，而且詩歌帶給我的感覺與靈感，使我思考使我領悟。。。
“我寫我的，你讀你的”，我談的是關於藝術和詩歌給我的啟發，原諒我對著你“不恥瞎說”。。。:)
no worries!! i am sure friends here are not talking about anything personal ... at least, that's how i feel....we are interested in poetry/art, etc... right?
:)
i always feel good about posting here because of friends like all of you.... i have seen too many meaningless and immature forums where people are good at nothing but wasting their time.....
i have learned a lot from you guys.....plus, how can one measure the joy we get from poetry/art/music? such as sd's songs....
:)
thanks, y.y., for the nice poem from D. L.!!
The Secret
Two girls discover
the secret of life
in a sudden line of
poetry.
I who don't know the
secret wrote
the line. They
told me
(through a third person)
they had found it
but not what it was
not even
what line it was. No doubt
by now, more than a week
later, they have
in other
happenings. And for
wanting to know it,
for
assuming there is
such a secret, yes,
for that
most of all.
forgotten
the secret,
the line, the name of
the poem. I love them
for finding what
I can't find,
and for loving me
for the line I wrote,
and for forgetting it
so that
a thousand times, till death
finds them, they may
discover it again, in other
lines
Agree with z.z.'s
poetry is like water...it can be contained by vessels of different shapes, but the important element is the "purity" of the poem, not the "purity" as in Puritanism, but the purity that can enrich the soul.....
that's what poetry is for . . .
“我”卻知自己的靈魂在掙紮著生存，隻為尋求一個答案--- 律周的詩歌傳達到我的眼睛裏的就是這樣的印象。可能我有點是這樣的人，所以從詩句裏看到了詩人這樣的影像。我很小就開始讀哲學書了，一本“時間簡史”作了滿滿的筆記。經常時不時地想，生與死，生命，生活，人，時間，宇宙，頭暈腦漲。他們都說，多傻呀，想這些有什麽用？
作舟的詩歌是我在WXC和萬維(其它網站很少去)讀到的最好的作品，很對我胃口。知凡對ZZ詩歌的見解也正是我的感受。生活，體驗，幻想，夢境，現實，思索，ZZ詩歌是理性和感性的完美結合。別暈。
詩歌沒有絕對標準。同樣的作品對每個人的感受都因了各自的性情，經曆而不同。這個說起來就長了。。。我一直讚成，比較感受，比較詩歌傳達的東西，比較讀者接納的東西，而不要比較詩歌。
不過到目前為止沒有過比較呀。頂多是一個人讀不同作者的作品產生的不同感受而已。
我怎麽還是一天隻能發一個貼呀。以前按照YY說的過10分鍾間隔可以發一個貼，現在連這個也不能夠了。快反饋。
新月如鉤
往事如夢
夢境何求
人隔千裏
星已稠
月色朦朦
夜未盡
寒燈不明
獨坐孤零
人隔千裏
遙問
終無憑
明月傳信
寄我片紙兒
慰離情
...used to like 徐小鳳....her voice was unique in some ways, i thought....
thank you, sd, for sharing such a classic!!!! and providing a different voice!!
zf: ...作為一個讀者，我不想說誰的詩“更”怎樣。。。我隻喜歡談感受....
i appreciate your open mind and honesty as always.....and thank you for sharing your 感受.....
please do not compare my poetry with others....that is not the reason i write....i write "for myself"....:) right? i remeber saying that before....
so, "you" also "read for yourself"....!!!
poetry is like water...it can be contained by vessels of different shapes, but the important element is the "purity" of the poem, not the "purity" as in Puritanism, but the purity that can enrich the soul.....
i feel everybody here is talking about or sround the same things.....
:)
cheers!!!!
“我卻知自己的靈魂在掙紮著生存，隻為尋求一個答案”，小人魚，你尋求的是一生的答案還是你對自己的信仰，相信你可以在一生中度過很多的人生的人生答案？如果是，沒有什麽是什麽，在作舟詩歌的思索裏“Always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question。。。”
“We can never be born enough. We are human beings;for whom birth is a supremely welcome mystery,the mystery of growing:which happens only and whenever we are faithful to ourselves.“
more later...
"不需要那易碎傷感的心":)
明月千裏寄相思
原唱：徐小鳳
夜色茫茫照四周
天邊新月如鉤
回憶往事恍如夢
重尋夢境何處求
人隔千裏路悠悠
未曾遙問星已稠
請明月帶問候
思念的人兒淚長流
月色朦朦照四周
夜未盡周遭寂寞寧靜
桌上寒燈光不明
伴我獨坐苦孤零
人隔千裏無音訊
欲待遙問終無憑
請明月代傳信
寄我片紙兒慰離情
I am not "瞎":), I always like to read "NEW POEM"s written by Human Beings...
::
it should be something inhuman, i.e., a beautiful tree, a majestic eagle, a lovely dolphin, a loyal dog, a funny pussycat, a clever monkey, a hardworking cow, etc., etc...
:))
"It seems to me that ZZ needs more Water..."
yessssssssss .... water in various forms ....some sweet, some bitter, some spicy....
:))
The Beauty can be from tears as well as from laughter.
Poetry does not answer, but guide us to look inward. We are puzzled by life, we struggle, we think, we listen, We're enlightened, we're happy, then we can pass the happiness to people around us. . .
what's the purpose of life? Happiness from heart. Easy, but not easy.
I am glad that we gather here to talk about something which we may not be able to share in our real life.
Write! Express! Cherish! & Celebrate!
"You better slow down.
Don't dance so fast.
Time is short.
The music won't last. "
by a terminally ill young girl in a New York Hospital
It seems to me that ZZ needs more Water...
:))
讀的詩多了,會慢慢發現,真正的詩人是不能將詩當做變為"聖人"的工具的....
假裝"肉體"不存在的屬於宗教極端分子....:))
詩歌不像其它學院派的寫作,她給人的是"感覺," 是靈感,而不是隨意的臨摹，或“說明書”。。。"
very well-said!!! especially 詩歌...她給人的是"感覺," 是靈感...
be honest, I don't like read poems without "肉體"(一般是肉眼看不到的) even though I like "Celebration"...為靈魂,為精神...
"肉體",靈魂,精神 = A human being; 靈魂,精神 without "肉體", what's that???
I am a human being...I like to read poems written by human beings...
律周: a 大俠 from 西域 wearing a long cloak of "陽光和陰霾"??? kidding :)
my sense of humour is very very bad, yy and sd knew that...
"童言無忌"...
:))
我一直以為詩歌是一種"Celebration"...為靈魂,為精神,甚至為肉體...一般是肉眼看不到的,但不是說詩歌的創作可以忽略所謂的"技術問題"...但"技術/技巧"不是詩....
讀的詩多了,會慢慢發現,真正的詩人是不能將詩當做變為"聖人"的工具的....
假裝"肉體"不存在的屬於宗教極端分子....:))
詩歌不像其它學院派的寫作,她給人的是"感覺," 是靈感,而不是隨意的臨摹，或“說明書”。。。
我發現大家的切磋越來越有深度。
慚愧我還沒讀到律周的詩，現在知道了，一定要拜讀！
律周說話也很耐人尋味---黑色幽默？：））
“律周: 感謝諸位接納,能享受你們的陽光和陰霾是我的榮幸.“
好久沒看到過“陰霾”這個詞了。
ZZ's living room has new guest now. :) Should have more different voices. :))
I'll continue to be an audience as I always was...:)
Have a nice chat!
影雲, I totally agree what you said... thank you for your kind feedback always...
When I say mountains and ocean, I mean the feelings, even feelings behind feelings, not mere images. zz’s poems are spiritual and enlightening which does not mean he does not the struggle or pains for life; instead, he seeks for how to live the fullest of life. His poems are lightness born out of heaviness. lz’s poems seemingly focus on the outside world, but the feelings hidden his poems are deep.
The way we express ourselves may have something to do with our life experiences.
律周, that's why you said: "詩歌是條不錯的船,水能載舟亦能覆舟."??????
but many times, I can feel 山 when I see 海; I can feel 海 when I see 山...and I can feel other skys between 山 and 海......I don't know why?
I think this is my way of reading poetry and observing this world...
I agree yy: "詩本身就是思索".... and I really like the poems such as ZZ's "Each the different, Each the same" and many others....Li-Young Lee "Every Circle Wider"....etc. because I can feel they are thinking so deep......touched my deep heart...
美人魚好!
但他們從不同的角度裏沉入內心，都具備思索的特性 [詩本身就是思索]。這就是我
的感覺，也欣賞這種角度的不同。
人魚的感受很SHARP；下海了？怎麽很久不見呢？：)
律周的詩，思維發散且極具跳躍性。在城市的夾縫中努力尋找一線湛藍的天空。生活是感受，更是思索。呈現與作舟完全不同的風格。作舟的詩充滿激情，熱烈，呐喊，柔情，靈魂，狂想；律周的詩，帶些沉重，冷靜，若哲人冷眼看俗世---人們視我如常人，我卻知自己的靈魂在掙紮著生存，隻為尋求一個答案。
大家好！
律周說話非常謹慎厚道，城俯一定不淺．．．
另外，有了更多的男同胞，我開起玩笑也就更放縱了：））
//
問好律周，拜讀了您的博客，感覺您的詩裏也是有很好的“個性”品質。。。
希望能多聽到您對詩的感受與見解，“砍砍”作舟雙壁軒裏的詩與文。。。我以為真的詩人都海涵，“詩的"無限延伸"...“
上次出言無忌，請見諒。。。
詩的"不可翻譯"也是說詩的"無限延伸"...
感謝你們的翻譯和帶來的樂趣!!!
I also tried to use "沉醉"... "平淡"... "河道"...but changed as my own 個性:) that's why I thought of 詩歌的“不可翻譯性”......