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1842年第一次鴉片戰爭結束的時候，中國人口是四億一千六百萬；到了1881年，中國人口剩下三億六千九百萬，而且其中三分之一吸鴉片成癮。
從1842年至1949年，全球人口從11億增加到25億，增加了128%， 而同時間中國人口隻增加了1.2億，增加了30%。從1949年至1962年，即到三年災害以後，中國人口增加了1.2億，增加了23%， 即建國後到三年災害以後，中國人口的增加等於鴉片戰爭以後100年的人口增加，而1949年至1962年全球人口增加了21%，略低於中國人口增長率。現在有人炒作三年災害的非正常死亡人數，並以此推論新中國建國後是中國曆史最黑暗的年代，這種推論完全不顧曆史事實。百年屈辱才是中國非正常死亡更高的年代。
從1842年至1949年，全球人口從11億增加到25億，增加了128%， 而同時間中國人口隻增加了1.2億，增加了30%。從1949年至1962年，即到三年災害以後，中國人口增加了1.2億，增加了23%， 即建國後到三年災害以後，中國人口的增加等於鴉片戰爭以後100年的人口增加，而1949年至1962年全球人口增加了21%，略低於中國人口增長率。現在有人炒作三年災害的非正常死亡人數，並以此推論新中國建國後是中國曆史最黑暗的年代，這種推論完全不顧曆史事實。百年屈辱才是中國非正常死亡更高的年代。
|
年份
|
中國人口
|
世界人口
|
中國增長
|
世界增長
|
|
1842
|
416118200
|
1123472981
|
|
|
|
1949
|
541670000
|
2562539670
|
125551800
|
1439066689
|
|
1962
|
665770000
|
3109479912
|
124100000
|
546940242
|
http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/special/china_1950_population.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Opium_War
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_pop-people-population&date=1962
http://www.cpirc.org.cn/en/totpope.htm
我現在知道了，原來你在這寫評論時隻看標題不看文章內容的，怪不得標題那麽重要。農民工進城要努力適應老市民的生活習慣。城裏上帖時尚“標題黨”，否則我們怎麽有緣分在此討論呢？再說了，我文章也不算太走題，文章本意就是針對那些把三年困難死亡人數用來證明整個新中國不合法的言論，如果不是那些把三年困難死亡人數上綱上線的言論，我還真沒用必要寫這篇文章。
怪不得我反反複複解釋文章內容而對這裏很多評論起不了一點作用。有些人寫的評論比我文章還長，就是不看我的文章。
"所謂三年災害非正常死亡究竟有多嚴重？"
"哈哈，沒人強迫你用三年比百年呀？"
speechless
哈哈，沒人強迫你用三年比百年呀？是我在比較百年屈辱和新中國呀。你可以寫文章比較三年和改革開放嗎。沒人攔著你。我是說新中國使得中國擺脫百年屈辱，是進步。三年困難是不好，但三年困難不能說明新中國比百年屈辱差。我是說那些炒作三年問題的人想以此說明新中國是曆史上最黑暗的時代是不符合事實的。
您寫了三年對比小康的文章後一定來告訴一聲啊。如果有人強迫你三年對比百年，不許你寫三年對比小康的文章，告訴我一聲，我一定為您打抱不平。
[看看這slow_quick這麽說：“你的標題應改為“3年人禍究竟有多嚴重？”。從你給出的數據，結論應該是非常嚴重。比“百年屈辱”要嚴重的多！”三分之一成癮君子的材料就在鏈接中。就算是三年人禍，這和南京大屠殺和鴉片戰爭也是不同的。我不知道這個slow_quick是什麽人，他是寧願要百年屈辱也不要新中國的。]
"百年屈辱,3年人禍", those are not something you want one over the other. They are bad historical periods and you don't want any of them to repeat. 新中國 is not equal to 3年人禍, as United States is not equal to its Civil War. You are obviously switching concepts.
Who I am is not important. The important thing is whether the rate of damage caused by "3年人禍" is actually higher than the things you try to compare with (unfortunately it is). Of course "3年人禍", which happened in peaceful years, should not be compared with war period but it is you who ask people to compare them. Let the numbers talk if you want to compare. Do not question other people's intention when try to debate the facts. You brought the subject so you better be able to defend your logic and conclusion.
I don't understand why you force people to choose between "百年屈辱" and "3年人禍". Why can't we choose between "3年人禍" and something happy, such as "三自一包", "改革開放", "小康社會"?
這不就是計劃生育嘛,是好事,比後來強製性的計劃生育文明多了.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2heoeNGYmY&feature=related
不明白為何一旦與西方有關就是屈辱、亡國啊？好象西方國家全是別人的奴才！可共產黨今天的經濟基本全是洋人的東西，什麽私有化、股份製、股票交易等，況且今天的改革從農村開始，而農村是安徽小崗村農民自發開始滴。你告訴大家土共有那條理論能用？
Some people compare Three Years of Disaster to Naking Massacre, and say Communist China kills more people than Naking Massacre. Such a comparing is totally wrong. It was true that many people died during Cultural Revolution and Communist government was responsible for that. Chinese people and Communist Party have all admitted that. Just like every year many people died of gun crime in US. US people and government admit the fact and everybody know that it’s the reasonability of US government to reduce the gun crimes. Saying Communist China kills more people than Nanking massacre, however, is just the same as saying democratic America kills more American than 911 attact. As every year about 10 thousands of American was killed in gun crimes.
The difference between Culture Revelation as well as three years of disaster and Nanking massacre is just the same as between US gun crimes and 911. One is due to social instability and bad government policies, and other is due to foreign invasion. During Culture Revolution, the death rate is much higher for government officials and CCP officials than the rate in other group. Saying communist China kills more people than Nanking massacre is just the same as saying Democratic America is killing more America than 911. During three years of disaster, many poor Chinese died of hunger, Chinese people know that, and Chinese government know that, and they all know something is not correct, just like US people know that so many gun crimes in US is not correct. There are more poor people died in three years of disaster than government officials is just like there are more poor people fall as gun crimes victims in US. There must be some communists died during three years of disasters, and many who died have relatives as communists. As we know, during civil war in China, it was the most poor who joint the Communist Party. 1959 was only 10 year after civil war and majority of Chinese population was still in countryside. At that time, most of government and party officials were come from the countryside and come from poor families. If there are someone who wants to killed Chinese people intentionally during 1959-1961 and Cultural Revolution, then it should be United States and Soviet Union. They succeed in putting economic sanction on China, which led to humanitarian disasters indirectly.
Communist China is bad. Chinese know it. But Chinese are not foolish enough to overthrow it, as they know that the present China is still the best among all other forms of governments they tried since Opium War. Since Opium War, Chinese tried democracy under Sun Yet-sent but all the Western countries, including democratic ones, just support local war lords in China to extent their state interest at the expense of Chinese democracy and at the expense of Chinese people. That’s why Dr. Sun turned to Soviet and welcomed Communist in China.
In the last a few decades, poverty population reduced all over the world, and China made the number one contribution in reducing world poverty. Many poor peasants of yesterday are rich entrepreneurs today in China, thanks to market economy adapted by Communist China. Regardless the label put on China as communist or capitalist, the present Chinese government works for the better of China and the world.
看了。有意思。
http://bbs.wenxuecity.com/culture/445614.html
嗨，就是這幾個網路消防隊的馬甲，你看著吧，我這標題一下首頁以後他們就銷聲匿跡了。三千多讀者，不就這幾個馬甲忙著給讀者消毒嗎。他們根本不是來討論問題的，隻是來扣帽子打棍子，文革都過了了，這套手法還沒見識過？你點點這些馬甲的博客或者搜索一些各個論壇，他們從來沒有發表過自己的主見的文章，隻是一幫言論打手。他們在文學城裏實施言論暴力。
我說這裏以前是一片荒草，如今是一片茂密的樹林了。他們說，你怎麽能否認林子裏這棵死去的樹木呢？這棵樹木但年死得多慘呀，樹根到樹幹都腐爛了，這棵死去的樹木怎麽能比荒草好呢？他們的有色眼鏡就隻能看到一棵枯腐的樹木，然後閉著眼睛懷念那無可挽回的荒草。
我們見證了中國擺脫百年屈辱走向繁榮的曆史。而一些人被個人恩怨蒙住了眼睛拋棄了民族大義。誰能沒有一點恩怨？我也是經曆過三年困難時期和文革的人了，把那點恩怨極端到反華的歇斯底裏是可悲的。
簡單化一下：他們是不是說因為共黨治下老百姓受苦，所以做亡國奴比跟著共黨獨立自主自力更生好些？能更有吃有喝有“尊嚴”？
這就太一廂情願自作多情了吧？
別說當時（百年積弱，國際封鎖--就是要想搞鄧公的資本主義也搞不成）就算現在開門揖盜，把洋大人們（中國太大，估計一國洋大人吃不下，得瓜分）請進來統治中國，老百姓也並不會因此就過上更好的有吃有喝有尊嚴的日子哇！
珠三角地區的三來一補，來料加工，等模式，美國在海地都實施過。不同的是，海地不是新民主主義革命，不是共產黨領導，海地是聽美國話的乖孩子（那些不民主不人權的海地政府一個一個地被美國推翻了，剩下的都是民主人權的海地政府了），結果和珠三角大不一樣。珠三角農民工苦不苦？苦。但還有盼頭。海地人心都死了，不要說海地人懶而且野蠻，他們已經沒有任何希望了！
中國善良的人為農民工維權，批評政府，我都支持。但是，借助外國勢力向政府施壓我是反對的。我從來不對西方人權民主能夠解救中國人的苦難抱有任何幻想。西方要真心幫助中國人權民主，就把他們用於煽動顏色革命的錢作為獎學金請中國學生到美國常青藤學校學習法律和新聞。不要把錢花在XX功之類身上。
我沒有否認1959－1962年饑荒的嚴重性。但是，中國崛起卻是是新中國成立以後才成為可能。三年死亡三千萬的人數是中國的人口雜誌學術文章提出來的，中國是麵對現實，而且中國正在改變這種貧困的麵貌。但這，以三年死亡人數為日本大屠殺開脫、為鴉片戰爭洗刷罪名是無濟於事的。三年困難時期，大人餓得水腫，我們家農村親戚不少，這些都是經曆過來的，我也挖過野菜，現在還認得瓜子菜。都是情況人人知道，我就沒聽說政府決定要餓死農民，共產黨和農民有仇的事情。餓死的農民最多，共產黨也是農民最多。都是想中國人死的，是美蘇經濟封鎖和蔣介石反攻大陸。U-2飛機飛入中國領空是經常的新聞。我這些數據曆史數據擺在這裏。有數據來源。你們寧願希望中國再遭受一次鴉片戰爭，而後你們再來地二次太平天國運動，對吧？太平天國，就是崇拜西方文化，搞個拜上帝教，以為西方人鴉片戰爭來幫助窮人消滅清妖了。知道太平天國建立在那裏嗎？長江中下遊。知道都是長江是誰控製嗎？英美軍艦在吳淞口和武昌。太平天國和鴉片戰爭無關？沒有鴉片戰爭的不平等條約允許西方到中國傳教，就沒有洪秀全去基督教。把中國變成癮君子的東亞病夫，這是多殘酷的曆史事件，這是大規模種族屠殺。
看看這slow_quick這麽說：“你的標題應改為“3年人禍究竟有多嚴重？”。從你給出的數據，結論應該是非常嚴重。比“百年屈辱”要嚴重的多！”三分之一成癮君子的材料就在鏈接中。就算是三年人禍，這和南京大屠殺和鴉片戰爭也是不同的。我不知道這個slow_quick是什麽人，他是寧願要百年屈辱也不要新中國的。
最近網上看到的捂眼睛文章：“今日的中國已經不再有亡國滅種的危機感和焦慮感，我們走出了那個一陣陣發冷汗的時代，不再說胡話，回歸正常狀態。危機感固然消退了，但是百年國恥留下的“受害人情結”仍然存在。這種情結讓我們對他國總是心存疑慮、憤憤不平，不是覺得人人試圖合起夥來害我，就是覺得誰都對不起我”。
鏈接出處
如今人大教授出來消除國人受害情節，說是怕國人對西方心存疑慮。國人隻是心存疑慮，而西方人對中國的“威脅”是從上到下深信不疑的。西方明說不賣中國武器，不賣中國高科技，人家不是疑慮問題，人家認準了中國是威脅。華盛頓廣場兩側有兩個墳場，一個韓戰、一個越戰，這是人家的首都，是全球遊客到華盛頓都知道的地方，人家紀念什麽？記住什麽？第一次到加拿大國會參觀時候，在國會內看到一處紀念韓戰死亡軍人。人家紀念韓戰，放到廟堂最高處天天念叨，而我們的教授卻出來捂國人的眼睛。
美國選舉了，民情可畏，把世界一切罪惡都歸罪於中國，美國失業是中國人權記錄邪惡的結果，美國帶領的西方軍事力量團團圍著中國，因為他們深信中國是邪惡的根源，這是全球最大的軍事機器。但是，人大教授卻擔心國人對包圍中國的這個最大的軍事機器心存疑慮。
美國總統競選支點之一就是老兵待遇，老兵待遇的合理性就是韓戰越戰的正義性，圍堵中國的高尚與正義是美國人堅信不疑的社會現實。
不要以為中國放棄一黨政體以後、中國推翻共產黨以後，西方就會不圍剿中國。曆史擺在那裏，西方瓜分中國的時候中國還沒用共產黨，隻是人大教授自己捂著眼睛不算，還想捂國人的眼睛。人大教授要大家忘記百年屈辱，而西方一刻都沒忘記是新中國攪黃了他們瓜分中國的美宴。西方嘴裏說反對中國專製獨裁，實際上它們要的是一個與西方列強一起瓜分中國人民血汗的利益集團掌權，辛亥革命後它們選擇了袁世凱拋棄孫中山，後來選擇南京而拋棄延安，然後是選擇台北拋棄北京。今天它們要似乎左右逢源，即可顏色革命使得中國共產黨變色，有可推翻共產黨直接肢解中國。中國已經到了曆史抉擇的關鍵時刻了，結果出來個人大教授捂國人的眼睛。
甲午戰爭日本搭上全球列強瓜分世界的最後一班車，甲午戰爭日本要中國賠償巨額戰爭賠款。這些賠款，是清廷一時拿不出手的，由列強貸款給中國賠償，從那以後中國收刮民脂民膏的稅收就作為戰爭賠款的債務的本利每月在上海交割分配到列強手中，中國工業化原始積累的途徑由此中斷。這個甲午戰爭賠款成為日本工業化的原始積累，日本從經濟危機中一戰而擺脫危機進而躍居列強。這個甲午戰爭賠款利滾利越滾越大，加上庚子賠款，中國民族資產階級的民主革命和中國工業化現代化道路被堵死。帝製推翻了，北洋政府繼承舊債，北洋政府被推翻了，蔣介石政府繼續繼承這舊債，所以中國工業化遙遙無期。是毛澤東建立的新中國不承認這些晚清舊債，才使得中國得以在建國後自力更生打下工業化的基礎。現在妖化毛澤東的人拿中國工業化原始積累的城鄉差別說事，是因為毛澤東阻止了西方把蔣介石收刮的民脂民膏分發給列強作為債務償還。西方收債時中國百姓再苦也是“法治社會”， 一個維持甲午戰爭後列強利益均分的“國際法”。自毛澤東不受這個“國際法”的束縛以後，中國從此背上了沒有法製的惡名。
甲午戰爭賠款是典型的日本打敗中國列強利益均沾的案例。這個利益均沾是通過金融手段落實的，就是列強貸款給清廷賠款日本。列強把清廷海關關銀抵押貸款還不夠，還用鹽稅抵押，還不夠，還用厘金抵押，也就是說，中國的稅收基本都給了列強，這也就是為什麽義和團反帝而不反清，因為老百姓交的苛捐雜稅都到了洋人手裏。這也是為什麽慈禧支持義和團反洋人，實在是清廷代替洋人收中國人的稅的。
1895年俄法與清廷簽訂第一個甲午賠款貸款，為期36年的4億金法郎貸款，同時附帶俄國在東北鐵路路權和法國在雲南的鐵路路權（這就是列強瓜分中國勢力範圍的一步，記得大革命時期一副列強瓜分中國的漫畫圖就是這個範圍）。1896年3月14日英德與清廷簽訂第二筆甲午戰爭賠款貸款，1600萬英鎊，以清朝海關做抵押，其中850萬英鎊為日軍駐紮威海衛的軍費。1897年第三筆甲午賠款貸款由德法俄比提供，又是1600萬英鎊，用鹽稅和厘金抵押，但是俄國要求東北權益太多，法國要中國緬甸鐵路權益，列強無法妥協，拖至1898年，由英德提供貸款，為期45年，這個貸款條件是德國占領膠州灣，法國占領湛江，俄國租借遼東半島，英國租借香港新界99年。三筆甲午賠款貸款總值4300萬英鎊，幾年後又有庚子賠款總值6750萬英鎊。袁世凱上台後有個民國二年大借款，實際上是把前清許多鐵路貸款的舊債重組由新政權繼續還舊債。後來北洋政府參戰第一次世界大戰，俄國十月革命不要這些債權，德國戰敗（21條把膠州灣割給日本）協約國看在中國派勞工參加歐洲戰爭的麵上，免除部分庚子賠款，但是，免除部分不由中國支配，由列強支配用於中國，就是建立了清華大學和香港大學。
這些債務連本帶利每月在上海匯豐銀行交割，由於銀價下跌，按照匯率還英鎊實際還的銀子要比日本要的賠款多很多，而且還要交匯豐債務管理費用。
如今西方經濟危機了，它們並沒有放棄以戰爭奪取中國財富的僥幸心理，它們還要再來一次甲午戰爭割中國一塊肉，然後在中國傷口上放上水蛭，讓中國永恒的淌血。所以，有了美日安全條約適合釣魚島的美國官方宣示。當今國際戰爭就是強權政治，擁有最大軍事機器的美國就是強權政治中的強盜，而人大教授卻擔心國人疑慮。前一段也有人大教授支持袁騰飛的中國正經曆兩千年最黑暗的曆史階段的謬論。今天中國周邊的軍事勢態就是百年屈辱曆史延續下來的，當年壓迫中國人民的列強還念念不忘瓜分中國的舊夢，並以軍事乃至顏色革命等各種手段來妄圖實現這個舊夢，而人大教授竟然出來捂著國人的眼睛。
甲午戰爭以後，中國舊民主主義革命的路子就被堵死了，所以才有了孫中山的聯俄聯共、扶助工農的三大政策，才有了毛澤東領導的新民主主義革命。毛澤東不承認一切舊債，把列強放在中國傷口上的水蛭拔掉了，才有了今天中國工業化和現代化的可能。什麽人民幣匯率問題，什麽釣魚島問題，什麽南沙問題，我們都看到西方妄圖再重創中國，再在中國傷口上放上水蛭，再次打斷中國發展進程，再次阻止中國發展，再來一次甲午戰爭。如果國人再次捂上眼睛，甲午戰爭的曆史就會重演。
我以一個親曆者呼叫，在曆史事實已很清楚的現在，別再以
假象來欺騙年輕人了。
請讀者看新華社高級記者楊繼繩老先生寫的字字血淚的‘墓碑‘一書。網上可找到。這是真實可信的。
也有人詳細比較了50年代中國各省人口統計資料，才得出三年所謂非正常死亡人數3700多萬人，河南省最多，因為河南書記劉芝浦虛報糧產最多。
真不明白樓主會隻寫1962年的不寫1959年的人口統計數據來推論。
“三年人禍（1958-1961）與百年屈辱，哪個更嚴重”？
我們用每年人口減少的百分比為標準：
版主：“1842年第一次鴉片戰爭結束的時候，中國人口是四億一千六百萬；到了1881年，中國人口剩下三億六千九百萬，...”。
[據“維基百科”，此階段人口減少4.700千萬是由於太平天國、撚軍及境內的穆斯林等起事禍亂，沒鴉片什麽事。
http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh/太平天國]
39年減少4.700千萬，4.700千萬/4.16億=11.298%, 每年減少約0.307%。
據版主自己提供的數據
http://www.cpirc.org.cn/en/totpope.htm
1959年中國人口6.7207億，1961年為6.5859億。兩年減少1.348千萬,每年減少約1.008%。
這裏隻比較人口減少,非正常死亡當然要多的多。
你的標題應改為“3年人禍究竟有多嚴重？”。從你給出的數據看，結論應該是非常嚴重。比“百年屈辱”要嚴重的多！
國人隻是最近才被告知劉主席說了“三分天災、七分人禍”的話。如果國人又再次被捂上眼睛告知這是“3年自然災害”，而且被告知“3年自然災害”並不嚴重，這個“災害”就會重演。
美化中國內部的嚴重失誤（不管是哪族哪黨）隻會帶給你相反的結果。
"Caused" is defferent from "killing". US gorvernment cannot eliminate gun crime just as China gorvernment cannot control themselves in the Cultual Reverlution. You are using more suitable word "Caused" than the other who use "killed". "kill" implies intention. US gorvernment intented to reduse gun crime but gun crimes still continured. China government intended to get rid of proverty ?Chinese people but at some years got the opposite result. And it is ture that gun crime kills more US citizents than 911 attack.
gun crimes is not caused by US gov, culture revolution is caused/directed by Chinese gov, you are not comparing the same stuff.
It is true, communist party caused more harm than Nanking massacre. For Nanking massacre, we know it is enemies who are responsible, for culture revolution, Chinese people got confused, not only do we suffer the pain, but also we are lost completely, no one to trust, motherland, comrades, friends, relatives, who can we trust, as a nation, we are still struggling.
我外祖父母是在淪陷區日本統治下餓死的。
Some people compare Three Years of Disaster to Naking Massacre, and say Communist China kills more people than Naking Massacre. Such a comparing is totally wrong. It was true that many people died during Cultural Revolution and Communist government was responsible for that. Chinese people and Communist Party have all admitted that. Just like every year many people died of gun crime in US. US people and government admit the fact and everybody know that it’s the reasonability of US government to reduce the gun crimes. Saying Communist China kills more people than Nanking massacre, however, is just the same as saying democratic America kills more American than 911 attact. As every year about 10 thousands of American was killed in gun crimes.
The difference between Culture Revelation as well as three years of disaster and Nanking massacre is just the same as between US gun crimes and 911. One is due to social instability and bad government policies, and other is due to foreign invasion. During Culture Revolution, the death rate is much higher for government officials and CCP officials than the rate in other group. Saying communist China kills more people than Nanking massacre is just the same as saying Democratic America is killing more America than 911. During three years of disaster, many poor Chinese died of hunger, Chinese people know that, and Chinese government know that, and they all know something is not correct, just like US people know that so many gun crimes in US is not correct. There are more poor people died in three years of disaster than government officials is just like there are more poor people fall as gun crimes victims in US. There must be some communists died during three years of disasters, and many who died have relatives as communists. As we know, during civil war in China, it was the most poor who joint the Communist Party. 1959 was only 10 year after civil war and majority of Chinese population was still in countryside. At that time, most of government and party officials were come from the countryside and come from poor families. If there are someone who wants to killed Chinese people intentionally during 1959-1961 and Cultural Revolution, then it should be United States and Soviet Union. They succeed in putting economic sanction on China, which led to humanitarian disasters indirectly.
Communist China is bad. Chinese know it. But Chinese are not foolish enough to overthrow it, as they know that the present China is still the best among all other forms of governments they tried since Opium War. Since Opium War, Chinese tried democracy under Sun Yet-sent but all the Western countries, including democratic ones, just support local war lords in China to extent their state interest at the expense of Chinese democracy and at the expense of Chinese people. That’s why Dr. Sun turned to Soviet and welcomed Communist in China.
In the last a few decades, poverty population reduced all over the world, and China made the number one contribution in reducing world poverty. Many poor peasants of yesterday are rich entrepreneurs today in China, thanks to market economy adapted by Communist China. Regardless the label put on China as communist or capitalist, the present Chinese government works for the better of China and the world.
Some people compare Three Years of Disaster to Naking Massacre, and say Communist China kills more people than Naking Massacre. Such a comparing is totally wrong. It was true that many people died during Cultural Revolution and Communist government was responsible for that. Chinese people and Communist Party have all admitted that. Just like every year many people died of gun crime in US. US people and government admit the fact and everybody know that it’s the reasonability of US government to reduce the gun crimes. Saying Communist China kills more people than Nanking massacre, however, is just the same as saying democratic America kills more American than 911 attact. As every year about 10 thousands of American was killed in gun crimes.
The difference between Culture Revelation as well as three years of disaster and Nanking massacre is just the same as between US gun crimes and 911. One is due to social instability and bad government policies, and other is due to foreign invasion. During Culture Revolution, the death rate is much higher for government officials and CCP officials than the rate in other group. Saying communist China kills more people than Nanking massacre is just the same as saying Democratic America is killing more America than 911. During three years of disaster, many poor Chinese died of hunger, Chinese people know that, and Chinese government know that, and they all know something is not correct, just like US people know that so many gun crimes in US is not correct. There are more poor people died in three years of disaster than government officials is just like there are more poor people fall as gun crimes victims in US. There must be some communists died during three years of disasters, and many who died have relatives as communists. As we know, during civil war in China, it was the most poor who joint the Communist Party. 1959 was only 10 year after civil war and majority of Chinese population was still in countryside. At that time, most of government and party officials were come from the countryside and come from poor families. If there are someone who wants to killed Chinese people intentionally during 1959-1961 and Cultural Revolution, then it should be United States and Soviet Union. They succeed in putting economic sanction on China, which led to humanitarian disasters indirectly.
Communist China is bad. Chinese know it. But Chinese are not foolish enough to overthrow it, as they know that the present China is still the best among all other forms of governments they tried since Opium War. Since Opium War, Chinese tried democracy under Sun Yet-sent but all the Western countries, including democratic ones, just support local war lords in China to extent their state interest at the expense of Chinese democracy and at the expense of Chinese people. That’s why Dr. Sun turned to Soviet and welcomed Communist in China.
In the last a few decades, poverty population reduced all over the world, and China made the number one contribution in reducing world poverty. Many poor peasants of yesterday are rich entrepreneurs today in China, thanks to market economy adapted by Communist China. Regardless the label put on China as communist or capitalist, the present Chinese government works for the better of China and the world.
“1842年第一次鴉片戰爭結束的時候，中國人口是四億一千六百萬；到了1881年，中國人口剩下三億六千九百萬，而且其中三分之一吸鴉片成癮。”
據“維基百科”，此階段人口減少4.700萬是由於太平天國、撚軍及境內的穆斯林等起事禍亂，沒鴉片什麽事。
http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh/太平天國
你的“三分之一吸鴉片成癮”數據是從那來的？
據唵啊吽自己提供的數據
http://www.cpirc.org.cn/en/totpope.htm
1959年中國人口6.7207億，1961年為6.5859億。兩年減少了1348萬,每年減少1.008%。照此速度減下去，39年（比照1842～1881）會減少2.1935億。難道這個人禍比不上1842～1881年嗎？
你的標題應改為“3年人禍究竟有多嚴重？”。從你給出的數據，結論應該是非常嚴重。比“百年屈辱”要嚴重的多！
向敢於說真話的你和你母親致敬。
我至今還清清楚楚地記得當時挨餓的情景。
哪裏光是餓死了三千萬人，三反五反，鎮壓反革命，反右派，四清，文化大革命，死了多少人？
唵啊吽聽起來像是佛教信徒。就這個筆名，文化大革命中不批鬥才怪。
鴉片戰爭尤其殘酷，能夠把世界人口最多的國家的三分之一人毒害成癮君子，三分之一人，把小孩老人婦女都算入作為基數得到的三分之一，實際上就是把中國變成了“東亞病夫”。
癮君子使得鴉片消費變成剛性消費，使得鴉片貿易成為西方暴利貿易，如此中國財富大量外流，在列強強製的鴉片貿易下，我不知道有什麽好政府能夠使得中國不貧困，不戰亂。而最終使得中國擺脫鴉片戰爭以來的戰亂貧困的困局的，就是新中國。
請問你是哪國人？為什麽用的漢字怪怪的？
共产黨饿死了三千丌人
之前内战起码死一千丌人，光共匪围长春就饿死六十丌人。
抗日死幾千丌。
至於其他欧美国家，在中国没杀幾个人
Some people compare Three Years of Disaster to Naking Massacre, and say Communist China kills more people than Naking Massacre. Such a comparing is totally wrong. It was true that many people died during Cultural Revolution and Communist government was responsible for that. Chinese people and Communist Party have all admitted that. Just like every year many people died of gun crime in US. US people and government admit the fact and everybody know that it’s the reasonability of US government to reduce the gun crimes. Saying Communist China kills more people than Nanking massacre, however, is just the same as saying democratic America kills more American than 911 attact. As every year about 10 thousands of American was killed in gun crimes.
The difference between Culture Revelation as well as three years of disaster and Nanking massacre is just the same as between US gun crimes and 911. One is due to social instability and bad government policies, and other is due to foreign invasion. During Culture Revolution, the death rate is much higher for government officials and CCP officials than the rate in other group. Saying communist China kills more people than Nanking massacre is just the same as saying Democratic America is killing more America than 911. During three years of disaster, many poor Chinese died of hunger, Chinese people know that, and Chinese government know that, and they all know something is not correct, just like US people know that so many gun crimes in US is not correct. There are more poor people died in three years of disaster than government officials is just like there are more poor people fall as gun crimes victims in US. There must be some communists died during three years of disasters, and many who died have relatives as communists. As we know, during civil war in China, it was the most poor who joint the Communist Party. 1959 was only 10 year after civil war and majority of Chinese population was still in countryside. At that time, most of government and party officials were come from the countryside and come from poor families. If there are someone who wants to killed Chinese people intentionally during 1959-1961 and Cultural Revolution, then it should be United States and Soviet Union. They succeed in putting economic sanction on China, which led to humanitarian disasters indirectly.
Communist China is bad. Chinese know it. But Chinese are not foolish enough to overthrow it, as they know that the present China is still the best among all other forms of governments they tried since Opium War. Since Opium War, Chinese tried democracy under Sun Yet-sent but all the Western countries, including democratic ones, just support local war lords in China to extent their state interest at the expense of Chinese democracy and at the expense of Chinese people. That’s why Dr. Sun turned to Soviet and welcomed Communist in China.
In the last a few decades, poverty population reduced all over the world, and China made the number one contribution in reducing world poverty. Many poor peasants of yesterday are rich entrepreneurs today in China, thanks to market economy adapted by Communist China. Regardless the label put on China as communist or capitalist, the present Chinese government works for the better of China and the world.
Some people compare Three Years of Disaster to Naking Massacre, and say Communist China kills more people than Naking Massacre. Such a comparing is totally wrong. It was true that many people died during Cultural Revolution and Communist government was responsible for that. Chinese people and Communist Party have all admitted that. Just like every year many people died of gun crime in US. US people and government admit the fact and everybody know that it’s the reasonability of US government to reduce the gun crimes. Saying Communist China kills more people than Nanking massacre, however, is just the same as saying democratic America kills more American than 911 attact. As every year about 10 thousands of American was killed in gun crimes.
The difference between Culture Revelation as well as three years of disaster and Nanking massacre is just the same as between US gun crimes and 911. One is due to social instability and bad government policies, and other is due to foreign invasion. During Culture Revolution, the death rate is much higher for government officials and CCP officials than the rate in other group. Saying communist China kills more people than Nanking massacre is just the same as saying Democratic America is killing more America than 911. During three years of disaster, many poor Chinese died of hunger, Chinese people know that, and Chinese government know that, and they all know something is not correct, just like US people know that so many gun crimes in US is not correct. There are more poor people died in three years of disaster than government officials is just like there are more poor people fall as gun crimes victims in US. There must be some communists died during three years of disasters, and many who died have relatives as communists. As we know, during civil war in China, it was the most poor who joint the Communist Party. 1959 was only 10 year after civil war and majority of Chinese population was still in countryside. At that time, most of government and party officials were come from the countryside and come from poor families. If there are someone who wants to killed Chinese people intentionally during 1959-1961 and Cultural Revolution, then it should be United States and Soviet Union. They succeed in putting economic sanction on China, which led to humanitarian disasters indirectly.
Communist China is bad. Chinese know it. But Chinese are not foolish enough to overthrow it, as they know that the present China is still the best among all other forms of governments they tried since Opium War. Since Opium War, Chinese tried democracy under Sun Yet-sent but all the Western countries, including democratic ones, just support local war lords in China to extent their state interest at the expense of Chinese democracy and at the expense of Chinese people. That’s why Dr. Sun turned to Soviet and welcomed Communist in China.
In the last a few decades, poverty population reduced all over the world, and China made the number one contribution in reducing world poverty. Many poor peasants of yesterday are rich entrepreneurs today in China, thanks to market economy adapted by Communist China. Regardless the label put on China as communist or capitalist, the present Chinese government works for the better of China and the world.
你到底想說明什麽問題?
如果說鴉片戰爭中國人民生活得比新中國差, 那關那三年什麽事呢? 為什麽標題和內容完全不關聯呢?
如果你想說鴉片戰爭中國人民非正常死亡率比那三年高, 你又用的是1949-1962年的數據.
你是想說即使中國人非正常死亡率即使經過那三年高的非正常死亡還是生活得比鴉片戰爭時期好?
你確實應該被槍斃!
我媽那時隻是個小科員, 憑什麽要為你主子的罪惡負責?
再說一次, 你父母雖然不應該生了你, 但還是不應該被槍斃, 隻有你這種渣滓才該被槍斃
鏈接出處
如今人大教授出來消除國人受害情節，說是怕國人對西方心存疑慮。國人隻是心存疑慮，而西方人對中國的“威脅”是從上到下深信不疑的。西方明說不賣中國武器，不賣中國高科技，人家不是疑慮問題，人家認準了中國是威脅。華盛頓廣場兩側有兩個墳場，一個韓戰、一個越戰，這是人家的首都，是全球遊客到華盛頓都知道的地方，人家紀念什麽？記住什麽？第一次到加拿大國會參觀時候，在國會內看到一處紀念韓戰死亡軍人。人家紀念韓戰，放到廟堂最高處天天念叨，而我們的教授卻出來捂國人的眼睛。
美國選舉了，民情可畏，把世界一切罪惡都歸罪於中國，美國失業是中國人權記錄邪惡的結果，美國帶領的西方軍事力量團團圍著中國，因為他們深信中國是邪惡的根源，這是全球最大的軍事機器。但是，人大教授卻擔心國人對包圍中國的這個最大的軍事機器心存疑慮。
美國總統競選支點之一就是老兵待遇，老兵待遇的合理性就是韓戰越戰的正義性，圍堵中國的高尚與正義是美國人堅信不疑的社會現實。
不要以為中國放棄一黨政體以後、中國推翻共產黨以後，西方就會不圍剿中國。曆史擺在那裏，西方瓜分中國的時候中國還沒用共產黨，隻是人大教授自己捂著眼睛不算，還想捂國人的眼睛。人大教授要大家忘記百年屈辱，而西方一刻都沒忘記是新中國攪黃了他們瓜分中國的美宴。西方嘴裏說反對中國專製獨裁，實際上它們要的是一個與西方列強一起瓜分中國人民血汗的利益集團掌權，辛亥革命後它們選擇了袁世凱拋棄孫中山，後來選擇南京而拋棄延安，然後是選擇台北拋棄北京。今天它們要似乎左右逢源，即可顏色革命使得中國共產黨變色，有可推翻共產黨直接肢解中國。中國已經到了曆史抉擇的關鍵時刻了，結果出來個人大教授捂國人的眼睛。
甲午戰爭日本搭上全球列強瓜分世界的最後一班車，甲午戰爭日本要中國賠償巨額戰爭賠款。這些賠款，是清廷一時拿不出手的，由列強貸款給中國賠償，從那以後中國收刮民脂民膏的稅收就作為戰爭賠款的債務的本利每月在上海交割分配到列強手中，中國工業化原始積累的途徑由此中斷。這個甲午戰爭賠款成為日本工業化的原始積累，日本從經濟危機中一戰而擺脫危機進而躍居列強。這個甲午戰爭賠款利滾利越滾越大，加上庚子賠款，中國民族資產階級的民主革命和中國工業化現代化道路被堵死。帝製推翻了，北洋政府繼承舊債，北洋政府被推翻了，蔣介石政府繼續繼承這舊債，所以中國工業化遙遙無期。是毛澤東建立的新中國不承認這些晚清舊債，才使得中國得以在建國後自力更生打下工業化的基礎。現在妖化毛澤東的人拿中國工業化原始積累的城鄉差別說事，是因為毛澤東阻止了西方把蔣介石收刮的民脂民膏分發給列強作為債務償還。西方收債時中國百姓再苦也是“法治社會”， 一個維持甲午戰爭後列強利益均分的“國際法”。自毛澤東不受這個“國際法”的束縛以後，中國從此背上了沒有法製的惡名。
甲午戰爭賠款是典型的日本打敗中國列強利益均沾的案例。這個利益均沾是通過金融手段落實的，就是列強貸款給清廷賠款日本。列強把清廷海關關銀抵押貸款還不夠，還用鹽稅抵押，還不夠，還用厘金抵押，也就是說，中國的稅收基本都給了列強，這也就是為什麽義和團反帝而不反清，因為老百姓交的苛捐雜稅都到了洋人手裏。這也是為什麽慈禧支持義和團反洋人，實在是清廷代替洋人收中國人的稅的。
1895年俄法與清廷簽訂第一個甲午賠款貸款，為期36年的4億金法郎貸款，同時附帶俄國在東北鐵路路權和法國在雲南的鐵路路權（這就是列強瓜分中國勢力範圍的一步，記得大革命時期一副列強瓜分中國的漫畫圖就是這個範圍）。1896年3月14日英德與清廷簽訂第二筆甲午戰爭賠款貸款，1600萬英鎊，以清朝海關做抵押，其中850萬英鎊為日軍駐紮威海衛的軍費。1897年第三筆甲午賠款貸款由德法俄比提供，又是1600萬英鎊，用鹽稅和厘金抵押，但是俄國要求東北權益太多，法國要中國緬甸鐵路權益，列強無法妥協，拖至1898年，由英德提供貸款，為期45年，這個貸款條件是德國占領膠州灣，法國占領湛江，俄國租借遼東半島，英國租借香港新界99年。三筆甲午賠款貸款總值4300萬英鎊，幾年後又有庚子賠款總值6750萬英鎊。袁世凱上台後有個民國二年大借款，實際上是把前清許多鐵路貸款的舊債重組由新政權繼續還舊債。後來北洋政府參戰第一次世界大戰，俄國十月革命不要這些債權，德國戰敗（21條把膠州灣割給日本）協約國看在中國派勞工參加歐洲戰爭的麵上，免除部分庚子賠款，但是，免除部分不由中國支配，由列強支配用於中國，就是建立了清華大學和香港大學。
這些債務連本帶利每月在上海匯豐銀行交割，由於銀價下跌，按照匯率還英鎊實際還的銀子要比日本要的賠款多很多，而且還要交匯豐債務管理費用。
如今西方經濟危機了，它們並沒有放棄以戰爭奪取中國財富的僥幸心理，它們還要再來一次甲午戰爭割中國一塊肉，然後在中國傷口上放上水蛭，讓中國永恒的淌血。所以，有了美日安全條約適合釣魚島的美國官方宣示。當今國際戰爭就是強權政治，擁有最大軍事機器的美國就是強權政治中的強盜，而人大教授卻擔心國人疑慮。前一段也有人大教授支持袁騰飛的中國正經曆兩千年最黑暗的曆史階段的謬論。今天中國周邊的軍事勢態就是百年屈辱曆史延續下來的，當年壓迫中國人民的列強還念念不忘瓜分中國的舊夢，並以軍事乃至顏色革命等各種手段來妄圖實現這個舊夢，而人大教授竟然出來捂著國人的眼睛。
甲午戰爭以後，中國舊民主主義革命的路子就被堵死了，所以才有了孫中山的聯俄聯共、扶助工農的三大政策，才有了毛澤東領導的新民主主義革命。毛澤東不承認一切舊債，把列強放在中國傷口上的水蛭拔掉了，才有了今天中國工業化和現代化的可能。什麽人民幣匯率問題，什麽釣魚島問題，什麽南沙問題，我們都看到西方妄圖再重創中國，再在中國傷口上放上水蛭，再次打斷中國發展進程，再次阻止中國發展，再來一次甲午戰爭。如果國人再次捂上眼睛，甲午戰爭的曆史就會重演。
你媽在省府工作，真要餓死那麽多人，你媽已夠的上槍斃了！
三年災荒期是眾所周知的人災。現在我們這些挨過餓的人還記憶猶新。
“新中國和曆史比較，老百姓生活是改善了。和全世界比較，也是高於平均水平。”你說的是三年災荒期還是現在？
三年災荒期中國老百姓生活是最苦的，否則怎麽餓死人？
現在，鄧小平後的中國經濟上實行的是資本主義。所以老百姓生活得到改善。
掩耳盜鈴是欺人欺己。
聽來心酸。
也許你列舉數字不算啥。
Do you have numbers for the (abnormal) death during the cultural revolution (1966-1976), can you compare the number to the numbers during 1958-1961? You will find that 1958-1961 is much worse than 1966-1976.
"三年災害”? What 災害 are you talking about?
那要看你站在什麽立場來說能否比較了
老百姓生活是好是壞，也沒有什麽標準？常言道：寧為太平狗，不作亂世人，說的就是和平時代好於戰爭時代。
我想，新中國和曆史比較，老百姓生活是改善了。和全世界比較，也是高於平均水平。即無論橫向比較還是縱向比較，新中國都是中國曆史上對老百姓生活而言是最好的時期之一。
你說的無法比較，實際就是說不同時期不同國家用不同標準，沒有客觀標準，隨便怎麽捏都行。西方強權話語說“好”就是在“好”，說“壞”就是在“壞”，反正曆史都有特殊性，都不可比較。前蘇聯解體後人均壽命減少了十年，都可以算作“正常死亡”。尤其是前南斯拉夫，美國投下貧鈾彈，致使許多人患上癌症死亡，對一些人來說也是“正常死亡”也是“進步”。反正標準隨便定，無需比較。
千千萬萬被餓死的人的冤魂，在天上注視著那些謊言粉飾罪惡的人。
The difference between Culture Revelation as well as three years of disaster and Nanking massacre is just the same as between US gun crimes and 911. One is due to social instability and bad government policies, and other is due to foreign invasion. During Culture Revolution, the death rate is much higher for government officials and CCP officials than the rate in other group. Saying communist China kills more people than Nanking massacre is just the same as saying Democratic America is killing more America than 911. During three years of disaster, many poor Chinese died of hunger, Chinese people know that, and Chinese government know that, and they all know something is not correct, just like US people know that so many gun crimes in US is not correct. There are more poor people died in three years of disaster than government officials is just like there are more poor people fall as gun crimes victims in US. There must be some communists died during three years of disasters, and many who died have relatives as communists. As we know, during civil war in China, it was the most poor who joint the Communist Party. 1959 was only 10 year after civil war and majority of Chinese population was still in countryside. At that time, most of government and party officials were come from the countryside and come from poor families. If there are someone who wants to killed Chinese people intentionally during 1959-1961 and Cultural Revolution, then it should be United States and Soviet Union. They succeed in putting economic sanction on China, which led to humanitarian disasters indirectly.
Communist China is bad. Chinese know it. But Chinese are not foolish enough to overthrow it, as they know that the present China is still the best among all other forms of governments they tried since Opium War. Since Opium War, Chinese tried democracy under Sun Yet-sent but all the Western countries, including democratic ones, just support local war lords in China to extent their state interest at the expense of Chinese democracy and at the expense of Chinese people. That’s why Dr. Sun turned to Soviet and welcomed Communist in China.
In the last a few decades, poverty population reduced all over the world, and China made the number one contribution in reducing world poverty. Many poor peasants of yesterday are rich entrepreneurs today in China, thanks to market economy adapted by Communist China. Regardless the label put on China as communist or capitalist, the present Chinese government works for the better of China and the world.
Go to hell!
Did 中國人民自己主導 1958-1961 ? Why you try so hard to smooth 1959-1962 out by quoting 1949-1979 ? In China's history, 1958-1961 should always be singled out, and should never be forgotten. Are you trying to challenge the numbers (20-40 million death from famine, without a major war, natural disaster or disease)? In which 3 years before 1949 do we have more people died from famine, without major war, natural disaster or disease)?
You may cheer China's achievement before and after that 3 year period but covering up that 3 years will only weaken your overall score. People who experienced the period are still alive and they are also on this web (WenxuCity, 潤濤閻).
無論如何，都隻說明中華民族災難深重 - 麵對吧，比粉飾要有意義。。。
that WAS the worst
我母親當時在甘肅省政府工作, 她說那時候沒有人去統計餓死人數, 但大家都知道在甘肅省起碼上百萬.
你言下之意是共產黨使中國獲得了60年和平. 新中國成立60年是世界的大環境是和平, 不是隻有中國才有和平. 相反, 中國還在朝鮮戰爭中付出了幾十萬生命. 如果是國民黨執政, 那次韓戰基本上是可以避免的吧?
所謂鴉片戰爭打開了中國封閉的大門，是工業化的全球經濟與中國自然經濟的碰撞，是列強要把中國的資源和市場納入全球經濟體係之內。當然，有些人是對鴉片戰爭懷有敬意的，認為西方先進文明接納中國落後文明有何不好？最好殖民三百年，中國就先進了。但是，西方是要中國的資源和市場，並不要中國享受這些資源，這就是我《物質循環的世界》係列裏提出的全球化中的南北矛盾，北方把南方資源納入全球大循環，而南方人民要擠入這個全球大循環。
這個矛盾，歸結到國際政治層麵上，就是中國現代化是有西方列強主導（殖民三百年）還是由中國人民自己主導。這個鬥爭自鴉片戰爭以來就一直持續至今。中國的工業化和現代化，從1840年至1949年就是由西方列強主導的，所謂半殖民統治，其結果是持續的貧困和戰亂，戰亂使得西方得以渾水摸魚掠奪中國資源（包括人力資源），由於西方的掠奪造成貧困，由於貧困造成社會動亂和戰爭，貧困和戰爭互為因果循環百年。1949年至1979年三十年是中國擺脫西方控製時期，此前國民黨政府已經收稅收到70年代了，即40年代的國民黨政府超前收稅，製造了超級通貨膨脹，把財富卷到台灣。新中國前三十年是美蘇封鎖的三十年。即中國現代化如果要由中國人民來主導，則西方就遏製中國現代化。這從現代化物質過程來說是退步了，就是西方拒絕中國融入全球經濟，但是，這是有西方列強主導還是中國人民主導的轉折階段，是中國人有尊嚴地融入全球經濟的基石。1979年至今是中國人民自己主導的現代化過程，是中國人民自己主導的融入國際分工的過程。中國現代化過程至今，依然有中國主導還是美國主導的鬥爭，但是，中國人民基本主導了這個發展。
三段論：1840－1949：西方主導中國近代化。1949－1979：中國主導中國近代化，但是受到孤立和封鎖。1979至今，中國主導中國融入國際分工。
中國近代史是中國是在學習西方先進的工業文明的曆史，這個過程在西方主導下是貧困和戰亂，在中國自己主導下才得以迅速發展。