風蕭蕭_Frank
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澳洲總理與習近平共進午餐談了什麽？丨ABC中文
您說的“私人”是什麽意思？我知道那次談話持續了多久。
我們提出了一係列問題，因為那是私人談話。我不想細說。呃，那次談話不像我們作為中國國家主席和澳大利亞總理在正式雙邊會晤時那樣，討論國家事務。那次談話更多的是個人問題，我們的曆史。
您了解到他的曆史和背景嗎？我了解到不少，但這些都屬於私人話題。我認為他是一個非常注重隱私的人，能夠進行這樣的談話非常重要。但為了了解人們的出身，你必須了解他們的背景，也必須了解他們對個人事務的一些看法，我覺得我們彼此更加了解了。
你說那些都是玩笑。那些玩笑是關於什麽的？那些玩笑涉及各種各樣的事情。呃，不過我再說一次，我會保密。但他展現了真正的幽默感，我們之間的談話非常溫馨。他當然訪問過澳大利亞所有六個州和領地。現在大多數澳大利亞人還沒有這樣做過。
他知道自己在說什麽。隻是談到他的出身和背景。我相信你知道他父親在共產黨的最後一個角色。他的任務是監督台灣的統一。你談過這個嗎？
沒有。沒有提到台灣。
沒有。我們並沒有談論太多重要的政策問題。但那是關於他父親的，這對他來說非常重要。哦，這對他來說無疑很重要，而且他對台灣問題表達了清晰的看法，澳大利亞也一樣。嗯，在台海問題上，我們支持維持現狀。
您剛才說這次交流有點不尋常。你們一起度過了一段時光。你們進行了這些私人交流。您說這次交流是建立信任的時刻。您認為這種信任值多少錢？嗯，它的價值在於不要在節目中談論個人問題。這體現了雙方的某種程度的互動和個人關係的建立。這與在這棟樓裏或在工黨會議上建立個人關係，進行國際交流沒有什麽不同。
您讓我進來，是因為在這棟樓裏建立關係和與中國國家主席建立關係是不同的。當然，但同樣的原則也適用，那就是坦率地明確你的觀點，明確哪些方麵你能達成一致，哪些方麵你不能達成一致，這就是我們關係的本質。我說過，我們會在可以合作、必須達成一致的地方合作，但我們會為了國家利益而合作，而這正是我們一直在做的事情。請允許我回到信任的問題上，因為我確實認為你用了一個不尋常的詞，我確實想知道你認為這個詞是什麽意思。除了與他關係略有發展之外，例如，如果台灣爆發危機，他會接你的電話嗎？以阻止他入侵或封鎖台灣？
你看，這隻是一個假設，我就不深入探討了。呃，但我之前說過，他對我說的任何話，呃，都已經履行了。呃，他沒有違背任何對我的個人承諾。這並不意味著他同意我提出的所有建議。遠非如此。但我寧願這樣，也不願看到有人在國際層麵上說：“是的，我們可以做到。”然後又反其道而行之。
所以你相信他說了什麽就會信守諾言？我沒有理由指出迄今為止發生的任何違約行為。這都是關於過去的事。那麽未來呢？
嗯，我隻能談論過去，因為我隻能談論事實，而不是展望未來。我們不知道會發生什麽。我們知道存在重大差異。中國和澳大利亞有不同的政治體製。我們有不同的價值觀。我們與美國結盟，這非常重要。我們是一個民主國家，明天將是這種民主的體現。
在進入明天之前，我想談談美國人將如何關注發生的事情。嗯，你有沒有讓你們的大使陸克文向白宮解釋，為什麽你花了這麽多時間與習近平主席會麵，卻沒有與唐納德·特朗普見麵？他一直在這樣做嗎？沒有，我確信陸克文一直在以正常的方式與美國接觸。但他需要解釋嗎？我本來不這麽認為。我本來會的。
我認為澳大利亞與我們的主要貿易夥伴進行接觸是非常明智的。這關乎澳大利亞的就業。
但正如您所描述的那樣，我們之間充滿信任，通過這次長時間的會談、交流和個人交往，我們之間確實在進行接觸，而且我與美國之間也進行了建設性的接觸，就像我長期以來與美國進行的接觸一樣。自從我擔任總理以來，我訪問了美國五次，其中兩次訪問了中國。中國是我們的主要貿易夥伴。澳大利亞四分之一的就業崗位依賴於貿易，而中國的出口額更大，我們對中國的出口額超過了緊隨其後的四個國家的總和。
您現在正在為與特朗普總統會麵做出哪些新的努力？我們正在進行接觸。我可以參加一次會談。當然，從現在到年底，我們還會舉辦一係列國際論壇。亞太經合組織會議、二十國集團會議、四方領導人會議，以及將於9月舉行的聯合國會議。
您是否聽到白宮或五角大樓有任何擔憂，認為習近平主席正在利用您的訪問，挑撥盟友關係？
沒有。
關於此次訪問的性質，沒有人提出任何疑問。
沒有，我沒有。我已經跟凱文·羅德大使溝通過了。
沒有。
如果這次與唐納德·特朗普的會麵真的發生，如果他堅持提出那些我們理解的國防部副部長埃爾布裏奇·科爾比提出的要求，您會怎麽說？讓我先解釋一下這是什麽。所以，這些報告……一份關於一係列會議的報告，這些會議沒有被否認。一份關於美國、日本和澳大利亞國防官員之間一係列會議的報告，這些會議希望更清楚地了解，如果美國和中國因台灣開戰，澳大利亞將扮演什麽角色，這份報告也沒有被否認。如果有人追問這個問題，您會怎麽說？
我想說的是，長期以來，澳大利亞總理在兩黨基礎上都說過的話。
我們是一個主權國家。我們會根據當天的情況做出決定，而這些決定最終由當屆政府做出。但考慮到8月份的形勢，以及我們理論上應該接收弗吉尼亞級潛艇的事實，你明白嗎？
你認為埃爾布裏奇·科爾比向澳大利亞提出的這個問題合理嗎？他應該更清楚地說明，如果發生衝突，澳大利亞會怎麽做。
他向我提出了這個建議，但他已經向貴國官員表達過了。嗯，他有報道，有報道，而且有很多報道。
我們不會做的一件事就是每天對有關美國問題的各種報道進行回應。我們不會這樣做。我們會以原則性的方式回應我們的立場。當然，美國長期以來在台灣問題上保持戰略模糊的立場。澳大利亞也持有同樣的立場。
You've called your lunch with Xiinping
uh in an interview on the way back. You
called it very personal. Can you
describe what you mean by that?
That we had a personal discussion over
more than an hour.
What did you mean by personal though? I
know how long it lasted.
Well, that we raised a whole range of
issues because it was personal. I'm not
going to go into the detail. uh but it
wasn't so much discussing uh the affairs
of state that we did in our formal
bilateral meeting as president of China
and prime minister of Australia. It was
more talking about personal issues, our
history.
What did you learn about what did you
learn about his history and background?
I I learned a fair bit, but again
they're they're personal. He's I think
quite a private person and it's
important that you're able to have those
conversations. But in order to
understand where people are coming from,
uh, you've got to know their background
and you've got to know some of their
views about personal things and I feel
as though we got to know each other much
more.
You said that they were jokes. What were
the jokes about?
The jokes were about all sorts of
things. Uh, but once again, I'm going to
keep that uh, private. But he had showed
a a real sense of humor and it was a
very warm conversation that we had. He
of course has visited all six states and
territories in Australia. Now most
Australians have not done that.
He knows what he's talking about. Um
just in talking about where he comes
from and his background. I'm sure you
know his father's last role in the
Communist Party. His task was to oversee
the reunification of Taiwan. Did you
talk about that?
Uh no. It was uh
Taiwan wasn't mentioned.
No. We were talking not so much about
heavy policy issues.
But that's about his father. very
important to him.
Oh, it it is no doubt uh important to
him and he has expressed a clear view
about Taiwan and Australia has a clear
view as well. Uh we support the status
quo when it comes to the Taiwan Straits.
You described this exchange that you're
saying is a bit unusual. You spent time
together. You you've had these personal
exchanges. You described it as the
exchange as a moment of trust. What do
you think that trust is worth? Well,
what it's worth is not coming on the
program and talking about the personal
issues, for example. That that shows a
level of engagement there and building
personal relations. It's no different
from building personal relations around
this building or at a Labour Party
conference, engaging internationally.
You you let me just come in there
because there is a difference between
building relationships in this building
and building relationships with the
president of China. of of course but the
same principle applies which is be
upfront be clear about what your views
are be clear about what you can agree on
what you can't and that is the the
nature of our relationship I've said uh
that we will cooperate where we can
disagree where we must but we'll engage
in our national interest and that's very
much what we were doing
let me can I just come back to that
question of trust because I do think
it's an unusual word that you've used
and I do I want to know what you think
that that word means. Apart from having
a slightly advanced developed
relationship with him, would he, for
example, take a phone call from you in
the event of a crisis blowing up over
Taiwan to discourage him from invading
or blockading Taiwan?
Well, look, that that's a hypothetical
which I'm not going to go into. Uh, but
I have said before that anything that he
has said to me uh has been uh fulfilled.
uh there hasn't been any breaches of
personal uh commitments that he has
given to me. That doesn't mean he's
agreed with everything that I've put
forward. Far from it. But I'd rather
that than someone on an international
level saying, "Yep, we can do all that."
And then doing the opposite.
So you trust him that when he says
something, he's going to keep his word?
Uh I have no reason uh to point to any
breach uh that has occurred up to this
point.
That's that's about the past. What about
the future?
Well, all all I can do is talk about the
past uh because uh I can just talk about
facts rather than uh going forward. Uh
we don't know what it will bring. We
know there are significant differences.
China and Australia have different
political systems. We have different
values. We have our alliance with the
United States which is very important.
We're a democratic nation and tomorrow
will be the expression of that
democracy.
Just before we get to tomorrow, I want
to talk about how the Americans will
have been watching what happened. Um,
have you got your ambassador Kevin Rudd
explaining to the White House why you
spent so much time with President Xi
Jinping when you haven't met Donald
Trump? Has he been doing that?
No, I'm sure that Kevin Rudd has been
engaging with the United States in the
normal way. But did he need to explain
that?
I wouldn't have thought so. I would have
thought that Australia engaging with our
major trading partner is something
that's very sensible. It's about
Australian jobs.
But in the particular way that you
describe with trust, with this long
meeting, with exchanges, with personal
exchanges,
well, we engage and I engage
constructively as I have with the United
States over a long period of time. I
visited the United States five times
since I've been prime minister. I
visited China twice. China is our major
trading partner. One in four of
Australia's jobs depends upon trade and
China is uh larger the export our export
trade with China is worth more than the
next uh four countries combined.
What fresh efforts are you making now to
meet President Trump?
Well, we're engaging. I'm available uh
for a meeting. Uh we of course will have
a range of international forums as well
uh between now and the end of the year.
APEC, the G20, the Quad Leaders meeting
as well as the UN UN uh meeting uh being
held in September.
Are you hearing any concerns from the
White House or the Pentagon that
President Xi is using using your visit
as a way to sew discord amongst the
allies?
No.
Nothing. No,
there's been no questions about the
nature of the trip.
No, not to me.
Communicated to Kevin Rod, the
ambassador.
Not to me.
What will you say if if this meeting
with Donald Trump transpires, what will
you say to him him if he presses the
requests that we understand were made by
Under Secretary of Defense Elbridge
Colby asking Austral, let me just explain to
people what this is. So these report
a report of a series of meetings that
hasn't been denied. A a report that
hasn't been denied of a series of
meetings between defense officials in
the US and in Japan and in Australia
wanting to know much more clearly what
Australia's role would be if the US and
China went to war over Taiwan. What will
you say if you're pressed on that
question?
I'll say what any Australian prime
minister has ever said uh for a long
period of time on a bipartisan basis. Uh
we're a sovereign nation. uh we make
decisions uh depending upon the
circumstances of the day and it's up to
the government of the day will make
those decisions
but given the nature of August and the
fact that we're going to be technically
we're supposed to be receiving Virginia
class submarines do you understand do
you think that it's a fair question by
Elbridge Colby to Australia to be
clearer about what it would do in the
event of a conflict between the
made that suggestion to me
but he's made it to your officials
well has he there's been reports there's
been reports And there's a range of
reports. And one of the things that
we're not going to do is to jump at the
different reports about issues in the
United States on a daily basis. We're
not going to do that. What we do is
respond in a principle way as to what
our position is. And of course, the
United States has had a long-term
position about uh strategic ambiguity
when it comes to Taiwan. And uh that's a
position which Australia has held uh as
well.
