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Iris Chang, Rana Mitter, Tokushi Kasahara on Nanking 1937

(2025-05-11 16:07:58) 下一個
"南京大屠殺兩個主因。一個是日軍捕殺散在城裏的十萬國軍，第二個是在這個捕殺過程中的軍紀渙散造成的奸淫搶擄 . 為什麽毛時代南京保衛戰談的少？我認為是因為毛時代都是給人民鼓氣，而不是泄氣。南京保衛戰國軍軍官帶頭逃跑，將10幾萬士兵留在後麵，沒有指揮，脫掉軍裝，扔掉槍支，換成平民服裝。任人屠殺"，Can you verify if it's historically correct?
ChatGPT said:

This statement contains elements rooted in historical events, but also includes oversimplifications, generalizations, and some contested claims. Let's break it down and verify it point by point:

Claim 1: "南京大屠殺兩個主因：一是日軍捕殺散在城裏的十萬國軍；二是在這個捕殺過程中的軍紀渙散造成的奸淫搶擄。"

  • Partially true, with nuance:

    • After the fall of Nanjing (Dec 13, 1937), many Nationalist (KMT) troops were still in the city, some in uniform, some having tried to disguise themselves as civilians.

    • The Japanese Imperial Army deliberately executed surrendered soldiers or those suspected of being ex-soldiers — a violation of international law. This forms a key part of the massacre.

    • The widespread rape, looting, and killing of civilians — especially women and children — were part of a broader breakdown in military discipline, but also included intentional terror tactics by units and officers. It's more than just "軍紀渙散"; some of it was systematic brutality.

    • Scholar Tokushi Kasahara (笠原十九司) and many others documented the military orders and cultural context that encouraged cruelty.

? Claim 2: "毛時代南京保衛戰談得少，因為毛時代都是給人民鼓氣，而不是泄氣。"

  • Debatable, but has a basis:

    • During the Mao era (1949–1976), the CCP’s narrative emphasized the Communist-led resistance to Japanese invasion (e.g., Eighth Route Army), minimizing Nationalist contributions.

    • The Battle of Nanjing (1937) and KMT’s role in defending China were downplayed, partly due to political rivalry with the KMT and also because the fall of Nanjing was a major military failure, seen as “demoralizing” in Maoist propaganda logic.

    • Propaganda tended to highlight heroic resistance, not disastrous defeats.

Claim 3: "南京保衛戰國軍軍官帶頭逃跑，將十幾萬士兵留在後麵，沒有指揮，脫掉軍裝，扔掉槍支，換成平民服裝。任人屠殺。"

  • Overgeneralized and inaccurate in key details:

    • Some KMT commanders did flee early (e.g., Tang Shengzhi, the commander of the Nanjing Defense), failing to issue clear retreat orders. This led to chaos among troops.

    • However, not all officers fled or deserted — many fought to the end and some were captured or killed.

    • The claim that they all “脫掉軍裝、扔掉槍支、換成平民服裝” is exaggerated. While some soldiers did abandon uniforms in an attempt to escape execution, many were caught regardless.

    • Describing them as “任人屠殺” oversimplifies the massacres that were systematically carried out by the Japanese army, regardless of compliance or resistance.

Summary:

Statement Assessment
Japanese massacred surrendered soldiers and civilians during the Nanjing Massacre True
Japanese military discipline broke down, leading to rape and looting Partially true, but also involved systemic violence
Mao-era propaganda downplayed the KMT’s defense of Nanjing ? Plausible and supported by historical media analysis
KMT officers all fled, abandoning troops, who posed as civilians Overgeneralized and partially inaccurate

If you'd like, I can cite key academic sources (e.g., Iris Chang, Rana Mitter, Tokushi Kasahara) or provide original CCP/Mao-era documents to compare propaganda treatment. Would that help clarify further?

看到許多人談南京保衛戰，南京大屠殺，但都沒說到點子上。

來源: f2022f 於 2025-05-11 12:22:11 [檔案] [博客] [舊帖] [給我悄悄話] 閱讀數 : 1642 (362 bytes)
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為什麽毛時代南京保衛戰談的少？我認為是因為毛時代都是給人民鼓氣，而不是泄氣。南京保衛戰國軍軍官帶頭逃跑，將10幾萬士兵留在後麵，沒有指揮，脫掉軍裝，扔掉槍支，換成平民服裝。任人屠殺，這樣的事，沒什麽光榮的，能不說就不說，給國軍留一點麵子。

記得曆史上南京（天京）被長毛屠城三次，每次勻十萬

 
來源: 金筆 於 2025-05-11 10:31:07 [] [博客] [舊帖] [給我悄悄話] 閱讀數 : 1898 (1605 bytes)
 
本帖於 2025-05-11 15:21:56 時間, 由普通用戶 金筆 編輯

記得曆史上南京（天京）曾被長毛屠城三次，勻十萬。先是東王楊秀清勾結某王殺洪秀全身邊人和另外幾個王及從屬和他們的衛兵。後韋昌輝進天京殺楊及一幹人，再石達開殺韋，最後石帥十萬人離京，為毛主席和中央紅軍探路，沿著大渡河到安順場。完敗。

每次屠城都是十萬，合計卅萬。且每次都血流成河（護城河），屍橫遍野。南京是一個凶險之地。當年我朝開國時沒有將都立在南京，大概也有這個考量吧。

文革期間我讀過兩本談到太平天國的書，一本是《清宮十三朝》，另一本是我自己買的，文革期間出版的書名叫太平天國史（或運動）的小冊子。前者對“長毛”的描述十分負麵（倒是較符合現今人們的認知），也不知真假，如天朝的宮女穿的都是開襠褲，以方便天王“臨幸”，又把洪宣嬌描述得如何如何床上厲害等等。後者則對太平天國崇拜有加，因為是農民運動嘛。滿滿的正能量。但這本不知道帶出來沒有。當年在取舍之間，我僅帶走我三分之一的藏書。

當年非常想讀，但一直沒有機會的是《曾國藩家書》，當年此書禁的太厲害了，它跟《飄》一樣，我都沒有讀過原著（或翻譯），是此生遺憾。但是電影 Gone with the Wind，亞馬遜上有，我看了兩遍，絕對精彩。

謝謝閱讀。今天是母親節，借此向所有的母親們，祝你們快樂！

 您的位置： 文學城 » 論壇 » 幾曾回首 » 記得曆史上南京（天京）被長毛屠城三次，每次勻十萬

所有跟帖： 

• 南京（天京）被長毛殺死的人遠超日本人，湘軍也不是好東西，把江南打得稀爛，毀了清朝 -jenda123-  給 jenda123 發送悄悄話 (153 bytes) (25 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 11:00:40

• 可把太平天國運動看作是初級版的共產主義運動，勻來自西方，但洪秀全號稱是天主的弟弟，還是蠻有創意滴 -金筆-  給 金筆 發送悄悄話 金筆 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) (2 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 11:11:44

• 如果這麽說，那麽64就是第三階段，也是來自西方。 -supercs88-  給 supercs88 發送悄悄話 supercs88 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) (1 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 11:16:00

• 符合曆史潮流 -金筆-  給 金筆 發送悄悄話 金筆 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) (0 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 11:37:24

• 農民起義而已。和共產不沾邊。倒是和基督教有關聯。一個號稱是基督的兄弟，一個說是上帝本人，宣嬌自稱是基督的妹妹。 -新手庚-  給 新手庚 發送悄悄話 新手庚 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) (0 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 12:24:08

• 我奶奶浦東人（江南外圍人）小時候經常說的話就是不聽話長毛子就來抓你了。其實她也沒有 -jenda123-  給 jenda123 發送悄悄話 (303 bytes) (23 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 11:15:11

• 我外祖來自周浦，握手。 -金筆-  給 金筆 發送悄悄話 金筆 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) (1 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 11:32:19

• 握手。川沙的。 -jenda123-  給 jenda123 發送悄悄話 (0 bytes) (1 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 11:32:48

• 浦東寧 -金筆-  給 金筆 發送悄悄話 金筆 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) (1 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 11:39:04

• +1，長毛對江南，尤其是對南京的傷害遠遠超過日本人 -jinjiaodw-  給 jinjiaodw 發送悄悄話 (0 bytes) (0 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 12:41:52

• 寫的不清不楚，可見不是一位心中坦蕩蕩的人 -波粒子3-  給 波粒子3 發送悄悄話 (0 bytes) (2 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 11:21:27

• 評論針對文章本身好過針對作者 -weed123-  給 weed123 發送悄悄話 (0 bytes) (2 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 12:37:43

• 第一句是針對文章 -波粒子3-  給 波粒子3 發送悄悄話 (0 bytes) (0 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 12:52:31

• 沒想到毛$@賊是禁字。長毛不是。改了。 -金筆-  給 金筆 發送悄悄話 金筆 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) (1 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 11:33:46

• 毛*賊這個詞，是罵毛延壽的。在中國有兩千年的曆史。：） -蔣聞銘-  給 蔣聞銘 發送悄悄話 蔣聞銘 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) (0 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 12:20:43

• 南京的風水不好，這我以前說過。在此建都的都是幾十年的小朝廷。 -新手庚-  給 新手庚 發送悄悄話 新手庚 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) (0 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 12:30:05

• 或許從秦始皇埋金於中山後，真的壞了南京的風水 -jinjiaodw-  給 jinjiaodw 發送悄悄話 (0 bytes) (0 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 12:40:42

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