Yangtze4300302010-02-05 10:34:05回複悄悄話
A few points/clarifications on previous comments:
1. Top colleges, especially HYPSMC, are definitely better if money is not a problem, period;
2. Money will NOT be a problem if admitted to HYPSMC and other top colleges. These colleges have large endowments and thus excellent need-based financial aid (FA). If you are rich, you can easily afford. If you are not rich, you get good FA. Either way, top college education will not break your bank. Money comes into mind only when you are relatively rich and can not get good FA from private colleges but get full ride merit-based scholarship from public colleges. You have to decide if you want to spend extra on a better college;
3. Cost of attendance in private colleges includes tuition (about $35,000/year), room and board (about $10.000+$5000=$15,000), travel (a couple of thousands) and book (a couple of thousands). For HYP, their FA are based on total cost (cost of attendance) so it DOES include room and board. Other private colleges can not afford this kind of FA so a lot of times their FA is much lower to the extend that FA is lower than tuition, which is why people think they do not include room and board;
4. Two years of community college will not waste time. Kids spend 2 years in community college and transfer to public college. The total is still 4 years. But, you know the quality of community colleges, don’t you?
5. ABCs are in a much tougher position to compete in this country. Do you have the resources and connections in this country comparing to the whites? You don’t. This is the major reason that Chinese parents want their kids in the better position in college education part to level the playing field;
6. Yes, if kids can get into top colleges, their parents do have something to brag about. But it’s NOT, at least not the main, reason they send their kids to the top colleges.
Depending on different people, American whites do brag about their kids, if their kids are doctors, lawyers, etc. Do you have any idea how many percent of Jews in HYP? A lot of there are paying full tuition;
7. The chances are for a large part of our middle class first generation immigrants, top college education is cheaper than public schools if we do not take consideration of full ride in the public schools. For some wealthier families, top colleges may be more expensive but they can easily afford. So it’s a MUTE question if anybody can afford or not.
8. For extra cost of top colleges, we have to think in long term. Top college students have many more opportunities in job market, graduate school application, etc.
9. There is an opinion in planning on under and graduate education to save money: go to a cheap public college and apply top university for graduate studies. I never buy it. First, if you graduate from a top public college or a less elite private college, you do have chance to get into a top graduate program but the chance is NOT going to be the same as those who graduate from Ivies. If you graduate from a third class public school, you can just image your chance of getting into top graduate programs. Also, when people talk about alumni, a lot of universities are talking about undergraduate education rather than graduate education. For some colleges, graduate students are not really in the circle.
10. I know a Northwestern faculty member who said to his 3 boys: If you can not get into the top five college then just stay at Northwestern since he has benefit as a faculty member. It turns out all of his 3 boys graduate from Northwestern. I never imply that Northwestern is not a good school. I do think it’s a great school and I like it a lot. It will be foolish if they do not go to Northwestern but to other top colleges other than top 5 and pay a lot of tuition expenses.
jstray2010-02-05 06:13:32回複悄悄話
東北老蔫兒 說得不錯。如上幾個頂尖大學並不會讓你破產。都是根據家長收入 適量收費的。我女兒高中畢業前我就跟她講好，父母的財力隻能供你上州立大學。如你能拿到足夠獎學金，天下大學任你去，否至就去州立大學。她拿到普林斯頓大學的錄取單。根據收入， 我們所要求付的反而低於州立大學的費用。現在她馬上要大學畢業了，我們也沒有感到 have made a big dent in the bank.
天上下著毛毛雨2010-02-05 05:23:07回複悄悄話
In a faculty party a few weeks ago, the only "non-faculty" (家屬除外）the manager of the program in a top ten hospital told me her story: My parents were only able to affort my elder brother to go to Harvard and had no money left for me to go to Duke, where I had been accepted. That's my life-time pain. I am sure I will have a better career if I went to Duke. I told my girls: Just work hard and excel in your academy. I will let you girls go where ever you can go. （All nine faculties in this program were graduated from the top schools in the states, both undergraduate and postgraduate shcoools.)
Another story: a friend graduated from a MBA program in Stanford U., took a job in a firm as a manager, with 20, 000-30,000 higher starting salary than those from less top schools. "Why? No fair."My friend said his colleague were upset, "But what else they can do? I am in the club, but they are not."
Of course, I am talking about those kids with academic ambitions.
If it is talking about "gaining face" for either the parents or their kids, I would say: forget about it. Use those money for something else, e.g. enjoy a better quality of life, NOW.
ncpga2010-02-04 22:02:41回複悄悄話
this is even worth of writing an article?
realbke2010-02-04 20:55:42回複悄悄話
簡而言之，中國的教育是英才教育. 受教育是為了出人頭第. 日本的教育是全民教育. 美國的教育是選擇性教育. 第一代移民的選擇隻不過反映了他們的教育背景.
It is not that Americans do not want to go to very good schools. They generally would like to choose the best school they can afford to go. There are some Americans around me they all studied in some college I never heard of. 1. These colleges offered them athletic scholarships. 2. Ivy League Schools have no Athletic scholarships. Their sports are crappy. 3. They tend to choose colleges with a decent major they want to study not only the name of the school. However, they all studied in very decent graduated schools with top leveled education related to their major.
lxc202010-02-04 20:47:21回複悄悄話
回複勝因院的評論:
EE major. It was a hard decision I guess; decided to take Ivy in the morning and changed it in the afternoon. He is now a junior. Looking back, not a bad decison - doing well from a learning standpoint and very happy and confident, planning to go to a top graduate school.
勝因院2010-02-04 20:14:33回複悄悄話
I think 真妮 may not know the whole story. Most 長春藤名校 have very good $ to support students. I know few kids went 哈大, 普大, 家裏 only pay 10% of 學費. 家庭年入 over 200K, only 15K (t+r+b) a year, not a big deal.
I think most people in the 文學城 are 1st generation. If we ask our self, how many friends do you have, who are they? 80 - 90% are Chinese, right? To send your kids to 藤校, you help him/her to create a network of people which is his/her classmates. This kind network
老外朋友 already have it. I know a boy has been accept by a 藤校, and 州大給了他四年全獎, and CMU. For all 老外朋友 who has the kid at 10th - 12th grad, tell him go to 藤校. There is one 老外朋友 tell him go to CMU because CMU program is best for him.
summer1232010-02-04 19:49:35回複悄悄話
Another example is why so many American families spend tons of dollars from private preschool to high school on their kids.
Give some advice to kids is also important. If you let your kids decide their future at age of 18, they got to be prepared very well. Kid of our friend got 4-year full president scholarship from a top liberal college 8 years ago and she decided to go to Duke against parents' suggestion and sby pending parent's tens of thousand dollars. Kid told parents that it is for kid's own future. Total opposite case you present here.
東北老蔫兒2010-02-04 19:37:05回複悄悄話
耶魯是“need blinded admission, need based financial aid”。根據家長收入和負債情況決定是否給財務補貼。其原則是不能因為孩子上耶魯導致家長生活水平的下降。當然這是指的基本生活水平。因此，隻要孩子能被錄取，家裏經濟不會更寬鬆，但也不會更緊張。藤校多數如此。如果我沒記錯的話，家庭收入8萬刀以下，上耶魯哈佛幾乎是免費。然後財務補貼根據家庭收入上漲遞減。好像到14-5萬以上就要自己全出了。
summer1232010-02-04 19:29:57回複悄悄話
To my knowledge from our friends around, graduates from elite are relatively easier to find a first job in current job market (in 2008,2009 ans 2010).
summer1232010-02-04 19:23:45回複悄悄話
Go to top ten colleges is all about establishing a good network for kid's future. Asian kids are definitely at some disadvantage naturally to compete the tough job markets. But graduating from top ten will give kids a better change to find a good job and have better life. Also graduating from elite colleges will give kids a better chance to get in professional graduate schools such as medical, law, business, etc. All hope is to get some good return in the near or medium future for 4-year college investment. It is so obvious if you just see short term investment return. As chinese parents like our parent and grandparent generations, we never expect investment return from our kids.
cncjcc2010-02-04 08:20:40回複悄悄話
我先ding,再討論。這的確是個難題，當我6-7年後要麵對時，我想我會用一個準則，那就是凡事都要有個balance. 也許是自私點，但是我不願傾家蕩產就為孩子可以上個長春藤名校。像文章裏的那麽好的州立學校還全額獎學金，我會讓女兒慎重考慮，但尊重支持她的選擇。如果真的要去長春藤名校，她也必須幫助她自己，包括貸款打工。You have to live with your decision, right?
您真是累了,紅的白的不能一起來。 但您跑題了.
那麽法學院和醫學院的博士算不算博士？
如果算，那麽原帖就不是事實。我隻是指出原帖說得不確實而已，不知道不對在什麽地方？
...........我還真了不起，試著讀你的一篇評論。你累不累啊。在人家字裏行間找漢字粘啊貼的。
有很多事要靠運氣。本人還有一個朋友女兒在北京剛讀高二，想到洛杉磯退一年讀高一，將來可進一個好學校，比如加州伯克利分校。誰知洛杉磯公立高中以種種理由不收。於是，有朋友出了一個點子，直接上二年製社區學院，將來再轉學。二年以後，她順利轉入加州伯克利分校三年級，如願以償。
1. Top colleges, especially HYPSMC, are definitely better if money is not a problem, period;
2. Money will NOT be a problem if admitted to HYPSMC and other top colleges. These colleges have large endowments and thus excellent need-based financial aid (FA). If you are rich, you can easily afford. If you are not rich, you get good FA. Either way, top college education will not break your bank. Money comes into mind only when you are relatively rich and can not get good FA from private colleges but get full ride merit-based scholarship from public colleges. You have to decide if you want to spend extra on a better college;
3. Cost of attendance in private colleges includes tuition (about $35,000/year), room and board (about $10.000+$5000=$15,000), travel (a couple of thousands) and book (a couple of thousands). For HYP, their FA are based on total cost (cost of attendance) so it DOES include room and board. Other private colleges can not afford this kind of FA so a lot of times their FA is much lower to the extend that FA is lower than tuition, which is why people think they do not include room and board;
4. Two years of community college will not waste time. Kids spend 2 years in community college and transfer to public college. The total is still 4 years. But, you know the quality of community colleges, don’t you?
5. ABCs are in a much tougher position to compete in this country. Do you have the resources and connections in this country comparing to the whites? You don’t. This is the major reason that Chinese parents want their kids in the better position in college education part to level the playing field;
6. Yes, if kids can get into top colleges, their parents do have something to brag about. But it’s NOT, at least not the main, reason they send their kids to the top colleges.
Depending on different people, American whites do brag about their kids, if their kids are doctors, lawyers, etc. Do you have any idea how many percent of Jews in HYP? A lot of there are paying full tuition;
7. The chances are for a large part of our middle class first generation immigrants, top college education is cheaper than public schools if we do not take consideration of full ride in the public schools. For some wealthier families, top colleges may be more expensive but they can easily afford. So it’s a MUTE question if anybody can afford or not.
8. For extra cost of top colleges, we have to think in long term. Top college students have many more opportunities in job market, graduate school application, etc.
9. There is an opinion in planning on under and graduate education to save money: go to a cheap public college and apply top university for graduate studies. I never buy it. First, if you graduate from a top public college or a less elite private college, you do have chance to get into a top graduate program but the chance is NOT going to be the same as those who graduate from Ivies. If you graduate from a third class public school, you can just image your chance of getting into top graduate programs. Also, when people talk about alumni, a lot of universities are talking about undergraduate education rather than graduate education. For some colleges, graduate students are not really in the circle.
10. I know a Northwestern faculty member who said to his 3 boys: If you can not get into the top five college then just stay at Northwestern since he has benefit as a faculty member. It turns out all of his 3 boys graduate from Northwestern. I never imply that Northwestern is not a good school. I do think it’s a great school and I like it a lot. It will be foolish if they do not go to Northwestern but to other top colleges other than top 5 and pay a lot of tuition expenses.
至於need-based雲雲，如果家庭收入不上不下，那去藤校和拿州立全獎的區別確實會有20萬之巨。我當年是這麽跟孩子說的，爹媽給你準備的教育基金是不超過15萬，你可以大學用，也可以用來讀研究院，或者作為創業的啟動基金，甚至買房子的首付。。。你自己決定。我家孩子受我的影響，誌向不怎麽遠大，所以。。。嘿嘿，老公也怪我沒push孩子爬藤。我問他是為孩子前途還是為自己麵子，他很誠實的回答：都有。我說了：從經濟角度看不值，不過我主要是要讓孩子自己學會權衡利弊做決定。我家孩子最後選擇大城市，因為她研究後認為現在location 的好處很明顯，可以見世麵，多實習。。。
很多人到社區大學讀的是四年製大學承認的課程，修完了就轉到四年製大學去，並沒有浪費什麽時間。雖然我的孩子是直接到四年製大學的，但是他們有不少同學是社區大學-->UC,一樣畢業，現在已經畢業，就業和直接上四年製大學沒有什麽明顯不同。
至於“另外本科畢業後如果讀博士，好學校一般都是提供全獎的”，這更不知是從何說起，這是您的經驗嗎？
哥倫比亞法學院算好的學校嗎？我就知道很多讀JD的沒有一分錢的獎學金。
你的評論提供了很多信息，謝謝。
我覺得你對美國孩子的獨立判斷可能過去強調了一些。在沒有拿到admission 之前，誰就能肯定自己一定能拿到好的州立大學的全獎？難道就不能同時也試一把藤校，作為alternative ？ 等結果出來再作取舍？
另外本科畢業後如果讀博士，好學校一般都是提供全獎的，費用的問題比讀本科小的多的多。
這裏有個機會成本的問題。 如果直接讀大學，早畢業兩年就是早工作兩年，無論從收入還是從工作經驗上都要比去社區大學所得更多。
Another story: a friend graduated from a MBA program in Stanford U., took a job in a firm as a manager, with 20, 000-30,000 higher starting salary than those from less top schools. "Why? No fair."My friend said his colleague were upset, "But what else they can do? I am in the club, but they are not."
Of course, I am talking about those kids with academic ambitions.
If it is talking about "gaining face" for either the parents or their kids, I would say: forget about it. Use those money for something else, e.g. enjoy a better quality of life, NOW.
既然這個學生有能力進harvard， 那末他（她）進州立大學肯定是１００％。
要知道，州立大學的學費的州內學費不到州外學費的５０％，而州立大學的學費又是不到Ｈａｒｖａｒｄ的５０％．因此，這樣算來，即使這個學生沒有獲得該州立大學的全額獎學金。如果讀該州立大學的話，也隻需付不到１／４的Ｈａｒｖａｒｄ學費即不到＄５００００。因此，即使沒有州立大學的獎學金，讀州立也比上Ｈａｒｖａｒｄ至少省十五萬美元！這樣的話，按他們的選擇最後仍然會讀州立大學。還是回歸到原來的疑問？既然他們並不看重學校的好壞，更多的是看那一個更省錢，他們明明早就能知道，即使沒有州立大學的獎學金，如果讀該州立大學比上Ｈａｒｖａｒｄ也能省十五萬美元！為什麽還要花大量的時間，花金錢申請Ｈａｒｖａｒｄ。
不用說美國的當地人，就連新近移民的外國人，都知道，美國常青藤大學學費比州立大學貴很多。
“兒子考慮了一番最後決定去州立大學，他覺得雖然哈佛相對人文環境好一些，但是為此多花二十萬美金、自己背上十萬元的貸款不值得，大學畢業後自己如果想繼續深造可以那時候再申請到頂尖學校去。這個孩子很喜歡搞發明創造，搞的小發明還得過獎，他打算把父母給他的這筆學費當做創業基金，在大學裏就開始創業。”
顯然上麵的這段有作者明顯的加工的成分。
既然現在那麽在乎學費的高低，“難道大學畢業後自己如果想繼續深造可以那時候再申請到頂尖學校去。”就沒有學費的高低問題了？
“兒子考慮了一番最後決定去州立大學，他覺得雖然哈佛相對人文環境好一些，” 難道僅僅是“人文環境好一些”麽？
人人都知道名校的畢業生不僅有極高的就業率，高薪，而且還有非常強大的校友網。如果美國人真的像這個特例一樣，不在乎學校的優劣。何來常青藤，何來名校和非名校。
這種例子，不可信。即使有，也是極個別，不能代表一般。
一上觀點純屬個人之之見。
It is not that Americans do not want to go to very good schools. They generally would like to choose the best school they can afford to go. There are some Americans around me they all studied in some college I never heard of. 1. These colleges offered them athletic scholarships. 2. Ivy League Schools have no Athletic scholarships. Their sports are crappy. 3. They tend to choose colleges with a decent major they want to study not only the name of the school. However, they all studied in very decent graduated schools with top leveled education related to their major.
EE major. It was a hard decision I guess; decided to take Ivy in the morning and changed it in the afternoon. He is now a junior. Looking back, not a bad decison - doing well from a learning standpoint and very happy and confident, planning to go to a top graduate school.
有很多公司在乎學校的名字。名校就是不一樣。
Could you tell me the reason? What is his/her major in the 藤校 and in 州大?
謝謝真妮的好議題. 我還有幾年的時間去認知, 思考和抉擇.
I think most people in the 文學城 are 1st generation. If we ask our self, how many friends do you have, who are they? 80 - 90% are Chinese, right? To send your kids to 藤校, you help him/her to create a network of people which is his/her classmates. This kind network
老外朋友 already have it. I know a boy has been accept by a 藤校, and 州大給了他四年全獎, and CMU. For all 老外朋友 who has the kid at 10th - 12th grad, tell him go to 藤校. There is one 老外朋友 tell him go to CMU because CMU program is best for him.
All is about kids future.
waiver of all tuition (35k),not on board and food (about rest 15K).
本酋長的同事，一些受過良好教育的美國中年人，包括了白人和黑人，很清楚：不在乎你上不上大學，而在乎你上什麽學校。所以他們也盡量鼓勵並在財力上支持子女上名校。在GA，Emory或Duke是為首選。孩子還在中小學時，周末也上各種才藝班。當然他們不像華人父母一樣逼著孩子上才藝班或該死的中文學校。
Give some advice to kids is also important. If you let your kids decide their future at age of 18, they got to be prepared very well. Kid of our friend got 4-year full president scholarship from a top liberal college 8 years ago and she decided to go to Duke against parents' suggestion and sby pending parent's tens of thousand dollars. Kid told parents that it is for kid's own future. Total opposite case you present here.
讓孩子自己選擇是對的。但沒有必要把上藤校說的要傾家蕩產。另外，上好學校的就業機會比差的學校要多得多。除非是頂尖的公立。
讀社區大學怎見得是浪費了時間？
美國人則沒有這個假定，他們周圍有著各色各樣的人。名校畢業和事業成功不一定相等，而實際效果才是他們更重視的。
美國人的做法有其可取之處，相對比較務實，並給孩子以充分選擇權，而不是大包大攬替孩子做決定。
相反，麵子在中國家長心目中的權重比較高。想想我們小時候，讀書在很大程度上也是為了父母掙麵子。不然他們在和同事親戚聊天時好像都抬不起頭來。誰家孩子要是成績好，上個重點中學，他們家長那個得意啊，嘴上謙虛，心裏都美出花兒來了。
當然美國家長也多少有這個傾向，但程度比中國家長要輕很多，炫耀的考量相對小一些，也不以成績作為孩子優秀與否的唯一標準。
個人不是很讚成這樣的做法：不管孩子的意見，傾囊而出也要去最有名的學校。除非孩子本人非常想去，不然，哪怕上了名校，如果孩子自己不努力，不珍惜，抱著"反正花父母的錢"的心態，也未必就能成才。
不過老外有些做法我覺得也有些過。比如文中那個中產的家庭讓孩子去念社區學校。既然自己有這個能力，學費也非天文數字，何必讓孩子浪費兩年時間？ 實在不行就算借給小孩讓他慢慢打工還錢也行。
總之 ， 在擇校時候，多尊重孩子自己的意願，從經濟與思想上幫助支持他，而不是從自己的麵子出發，大包大攬。這樣也許是在長遠上對孩子最有益的方法。
我覺得區別就在於你說的那句，“我們在為兒女未來做打算時……”，老外是讓孩子自己為未來做打算。
同意這個。