中文版世界通史裏有關英國首相丘吉爾反對對日扔原子彈是不準確的。丘吉爾是在50年代才改變對使用核武器的立場

來源: znr0505 2022-11-02 08:46:08 [] [舊帖] [給我悄悄話] 本文已被閱讀: 次 (3257 bytes)

白雲網友引用了中文版世界通史裏有關英國首相丘吉爾關於對日扔原子彈的立場。

這是從白雲網友帖子裏來的,

https://www.ias.edu/ideas/2013/farmelo-churchill

In the early evening of March 15, 1933, a group of London socialites gathered in a Westminster mansion to hear a special lecture on the latest developments in nuclear science. The talk was chaired by Winston Churchill. The speaker—Churchill’s friend Frederick Lindemann, a friend of Einstein’s and a professor of physics at Oxford University—discussed John Cockcroft and Ernest Walton’s recent artificial splitting of the atom and James Chadwick’s discovery of the neutron. Churchill had foreseen an important role of this subatomic particle fifteen months before in his essay “Fifty Years Hence,” read widely in Britain and North America. He had told his readers in this article that scientists were looking for “the match to set the [nuclear] bonfire alight.”

、、、

Now, under pressure of leading a country at war, he himself was about to see whether he would be up to that challenge. Given his familiarity with the concept of nuclear weapons, it was remarkable that he recognized the importance of working closely with the United States in building the first ones, only three years later, in April 1943. By then, it was obvious that the British could not possibly build the Bomb alone during the War, and the gargantuan Manhattan Project was surging ahead, with the British playing only a relatively minor role. Churchill had been able to make only very limited political use of the nuclear bomb established by his nuclear scientists. He did, however, strike a secret deal with President Roosevelt at Quebec in August 1943 that required both British and American leaders to approve the first use of the weapon. Churchill later agreed that the Bomb could be used on Japan, a decision he never regretted.

、、、

Churchill’s thinking about nuclear weapons changed rapidly after it became clear in the early 1950s that both superpowers would soon have the hydrogen bomb, making possible what would become known as “mutually assured destruction.” In February 1954, toward the end of his second term as British Prime Minister, Churchill read a report on a speech by Sterling Cole, Chair of the U.S. Joint Committee on Atomic Energy, which first brought home to him the extent of the H-bomb’s destructiveness. This realization drove him, in his final months on the international stage, to urge the Soviet and American leaders to meet with him with the aim of easing the tensions of the Cold War, to reduce considerably the risk of a conflagration. He became a pioneer of détente, though an unsuccessful one, and left office privately fearing that nuclear war was all but inevitable.

 

 

所有跟帖: 

“ Churchill later agreed that the Bomb could be used on Jap” -欲千北- 給 欲千北 發送悄悄話 欲千北 的博客首頁 (949 bytes) () 11/02/2022 postreply 09:17:03

他們是從軍事觀點反對對日本使用核武,認為沒必要,日本已麵臨崩潰。丘吉爾反對也是從這個角度,如果支持也是因為政治角度原因。 -白雲藍天- 給 白雲藍天 發送悄悄話 白雲藍天 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) () 11/02/2022 postreply 14:33:29

說什麽因為他們趕反核武的時髦才事後表示反對用核武,這純粹是無稽之談毫無邏輯!那時蘇聯有核武了嗎?那時有反核武運動了嗎? -白雲藍天- 給 白雲藍天 發送悄悄話 白雲藍天 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) () 11/02/2022 postreply 14:35:51

他們認為日本麵臨崩潰才不需用核武,這是否等於說,如果日本還有實力,他們就會支持用核武?他們這算是哪門子的反核武?! -白雲藍天- 給 白雲藍天 發送悄悄話 白雲藍天 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) () 11/02/2022 postreply 14:39:01

丘吉爾因為蘇聯也有了核武器,世界麵臨有打核大戰的危險,所以後來才表示無條件地反對用核武。 -白雲藍天- 給 白雲藍天 發送悄悄話 白雲藍天 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) () 11/02/2022 postreply 14:42:53

對日作戰的兩大統帥,尼米茲和麥克阿瑟,他們在扔原子彈之前反對嗎?他們怎麽說的? -欲千北- 給 欲千北 發送悄悄話 欲千北 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) () 11/02/2022 postreply 14:54:42

從他們言辭中,可以看出這明顯是他們的一貫態度,那時杜魯門還健在,他們不會之前讚成後來又說是反對的,這不都成了小人嗎? -白雲藍天- 給 白雲藍天 發送悄悄話 白雲藍天 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) () 11/02/2022 postreply 15:08:38

不信是你的事!我覺得世界通史整個片段非常符合邏輯,根本不用去懷疑,隻有感覺有說不通的地方時才值得去求證。 -白雲藍天- 給 白雲藍天 發送悄悄話 白雲藍天 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) () 11/02/2022 postreply 15:11:54

你沒有給出任何論據。 -欲千北- 給 欲千北 發送悄悄話 欲千北 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) () 11/02/2022 postreply 15:13:46

你自己去找!如果實在沒事幹的話!本人不是認為很可信很符合邏輯嗎?再說世界通史編寫者看到過的所有資料,就一定有辦法全查到? -白雲藍天- 給 白雲藍天 發送悄悄話 白雲藍天 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) () 11/02/2022 postreply 15:18:12

我下麵已說過,他們之前即使提出過異議,當時也不會公開,因為扔原子彈是件非同尋常的事,公開反對等於給總統製造大麻煩。 -白雲藍天- 給 白雲藍天 發送悄悄話 白雲藍天 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) () 11/02/2022 postreply 15:15:39

恰恰相反。 Interim Committee 記錄了所有的討論,包括曼哈頓計劃裏部分文職人員的反對意見 -znr0505- 給 znr0505 發送悄悄話 (311 bytes) () 11/02/2022 postreply 15:41:44

你倆看不到世界通史那段記述的合理性不說,還提出各種荒謬的假設,本人都耐著性子給你們釋疑,還在沒完沒了,簡直對你們實在無語 -白雲藍天- 給 白雲藍天 發送悄悄話 白雲藍天 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) () 11/02/2022 postreply 15:52:43

對中文世界通史的這一記述,你們愛信不信,反正我信了,隻要不說我編出來即可。本人已經回答了你們不少的荒謬假設,不奉陪了! -白雲藍天- 給 白雲藍天 發送悄悄話 白雲藍天 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) () 11/02/2022 postreply 15:56:13

這記錄是正式公開的記錄,杜魯門內部的私下溝通會公開嗎?腦子缺少的不止一根弦,就是想不到其他可能性,盡管很容易想到! -白雲藍天- 給 白雲藍天 發送悄悄話 白雲藍天 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) () 11/02/2022 postreply 16:01:37

鑽這種荒謬可笑的牛角尖,什麽事情都會弄不清的! -白雲藍天- 給 白雲藍天 發送悄悄話 白雲藍天 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) () 11/02/2022 postreply 16:03:46

撒這慌有意思嗎,不是存心一起在搞杜魯門?而杜魯門也不出來澄清,說你們以前都沒有反對過啊。 -白雲藍天- 給 白雲藍天 發送悄悄話 白雲藍天 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) () 11/02/2022 postreply 15:48:30

你一直在用 “中文世界通史” 裏的這一段記述來證明這一段記述的正確性。順便說一聲,尼米茲從未公開他對原子彈的立場 -znr0505- 給 znr0505 發送悄悄話 (0 bytes) () 11/02/2022 postreply 16:11:49

世界通史列出的這些軍人反對對日本用原子彈,都純粹從軍事角度,而杜魯門用核武是從政治角度考慮,這些世界通史都講得很清楚了。 -白雲藍天- 給 白雲藍天 發送悄悄話 白雲藍天 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) () 11/02/2022 postreply 14:46:29

"世界通史列出的這些軍人反對對日本用原子彈,都純粹從軍事角度" - 沒有可信的證據。看大英百科全書的觀點 -znr0505- 給 znr0505 發送悄悄話 (1972 bytes) () 11/02/2022 postreply 15:27:02

大英百科全書出於嚴謹才這麽說,但至少說出了一個事實,即當時那些軍人都表示反對對日本用原子彈,盡管是事後聲稱的。 -白雲藍天- 給 白雲藍天 發送悄悄話 白雲藍天 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) () 11/02/2022 postreply 15:43:28

所以說明世界通史一點沒亂說,而且我在這裏也一直說,這應是他們的一貫態度,否則不會之前沒反對,後來都說不讚成, -白雲藍天- 給 白雲藍天 發送悄悄話 白雲藍天 的博客首頁 (0 bytes) () 11/02/2022 postreply 15:46:18

這是你說的,不是大英百科全書說的。好,到此為止。 -znr0505- 給 znr0505 發送悄悄話 (0 bytes) () 11/02/2022 postreply 16:16:50

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