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正文
FAREED ZAKARIA GPS
Meeting with World Leaders at the United Nations
Aired September 28, 2008 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRAN. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.（注：本貼英文版內容和參考視頻來自CNN）
FAREED ZAKARIA, HOST, GLOBAL PUBLIC SQUARE: Welcome to GPS, the GLOBAL PUBLIC SQUARE, to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Fareed Zakaria.
It's U.N. week in New York, the annual opening of the General Assembly. I had the chance to speak with several heads of state, among them Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, and we'll show you that interview.
法裏德・紮卡裏亞：歡迎你來到GPS（the GLOBAL PUBLIC SQUARE），我們的觀眾遍布美國和全球，我是法裏德・紮卡裏亞。在紐約過去的一周，聯大峰會期間，我有機會采訪了幾個國家的領導人，其中有阿富汗總統哈米德・卡爾紮伊，隨後你將會看到這次訪談。
But first, I also had the rare opportunity to meet with one of the most powerful men on earth, Wen Jiabao, the prime minister of China. I met with him in his suite at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in New York.
但是首先我要介紹的是，我也有了一個很難得的機會，訪問世界的強人之一，中國的國務院總理溫家寶，這次訪談在他居住的紐約阿道夫酒店的套房進行。
He hasn't given a television interview in five years. In fact, he has rarely spoken to American journalists. It was an extraordinary opportunity to speak with him at this crucial moment in history.
在過去的五年裏，他還沒有接受過這樣的電視訪談。事實上，他很少對美國的媒體和記者發表談話。在這個曆史至關重要的時刻，能夠和他交談，是一次特別的機會。
China's rise to power is probably the single most important trend of our lifetime. It's changing the world. Yet we know so little about the country and the men who rule it. They control this vast land of 1.3 billion people, but they also have enormous influence over your life.
中國力量的崛起，或許是我們這一生中所目睹的一個最重要情勢，她正在改變這個世界。而我們對於這樣的一個國家和管理這個國家的人，還知之甚少。
The Chinese are by far the largest holders of American debt, for example. They buy billions of dollars' worth of American Treasury bills every week.
中國是美國國債的最大持有者，她每個星期從美國財政部購買價值10億美元的國債。
What if they were to lose faith in America?
假如他們失去對美國的信任，將會發生什麽？
專訪第一部分視頻
(BEGIN VIDEO)電視畫麵開始（CNN網絡版的第一部分）
The first thing you should know about Wen Jiabao is that he is quite different from other Chinese leaders of the modern era. In China, his people have a nickname for him - Grandpa Wen.
你應當知道的關於溫家寶第一件事情，就是他與當代和以往年代的其他中國領導人相當的不同，在中國，人們對他有一個親切的昵稱：溫爺爺。
After this year's disastrous earthquake in Sichuan, he flew immediately to the devastated area, went out among the people to comfort them and met with many individually. He's more like an American politician than a Chinese apparatchik.
今年造成慘重損失的四川地震發生後，他立即飛到災區，來到人民中間，探訪災民，安慰他們。他看起來不像是一個中國政治組織的領導人，更像是一個美國的政治家。
He is also, of course, an agile politician inside the labyrinthine ranks of his own party. A geologist by training, he manages to push reform through without alienating this conservative opponents.
當然，他在自己政黨內的曲折起伏，經過曆練，讓他從一個地質學家成為一個靈活的政治家，頂著保守派的壓力，管理並推進改革。
There were some conditions to my interview with Premier Wen. My condition was that I be allowed to ask any questions I wished, which the Chinese accepted. One of theirs was that I not comment on or characterize the substance of the interview. So I won't - except to say that I thought it was the most open and frank conversation I had ever seen or read with a Chinese leader.
專訪溫總理，有一些前提條件。我的條件是，我可以問我想問的任何問題，而不能受到限製，中國方麵接受了。他們的條件之一是，我不能夠評論或者刻意表現自己的主題，所以，我不能---我想說的除外。在我看過的、閱讀過的與中國領導人訪談中，他是最開放、最坦誠的。
WEN JIABAO, PREMIER OF CHINA (voice of interpreter): Before we begin, I'd like to let you know that I will use the words from the bottom of my heart to answer your question, which means that I will tell the truth to all your questions.
中國總理溫家寶：（在我們開始前，，，我習慣長篇大論的講話了，所以你可以隨時打斷我。這樣的話，我們的對話會更生動，，，）我還想給你說一句話，我想讓你知道，我一定會回答你的所有問題。我講的話，都是發自心底的話，也就是說，對你所有的問題，我的回答都是真實的。
ZAKARIA: I look forward to the chance for this dialogue. And I begin by thanking you for giving us the opportunity and the honor.
紮卡裏亞：我期待這次和你對話的機會，訪談開始前，我要感謝你給與我們這個機會和榮譽。
The first thing I have to ask you I think is on many people's minds. What do you think of the current financial crisis affecting the United States? And does it make you think that the American model has many flaws in it that we are just recognizing now?
我必須要問你的第一個問題，我想許多人都會很關心，你怎麽看待當前美國的金融危機？這事兒會使你認為美國的模式有許多缺點嗎，而我們現在才剛剛認識到？
WEN (voice of interpreter): The crisis that occurred in the United States may have an impact that will affect the whole world.
溫家寶：（我是6年前開始成為中國的總理的，，，再次之前，我是副總理，那個時候，亞洲出現了金融危機，，，。現在美國的問題，，，遭遇了）係統性的問題，目前在美國的危機很可能會有一個衝擊，影響到整個世界。
Nonetheless, in face of such a crisis, we must also be aware that today's world is different from the world that people lived in back in the 1930s.
但是，麵對這個危機，我們必須認識到，現在的世界，與30年代不同。
So this time, we should join hands and meet the crisis together. If the financial and economic systems in the United States go wrong, then the impact will be felt not only in this country, but also in China, in Asia and in the world at large.
所以我們應當攜起手來，共同應對這場危機。因為美國的金融和經濟出了問題，它所帶來的影響，那不僅會影響到美國，也會波及中國、亞洲和世界的廣大範圍。
I have noted the host of policies and measures adopted by the U.S. government to prevent an isolated crisis from becoming a systematic one. And I hope that measures and steps that they have adopted will pay off.
我已經高度注意到美國政府采用一係列政策和措施，為了阻止一個局部的危機演變為係統的危機，我希望這些措施和步驟能夠挽救金融機構。（，，，同時也能幫助穩定美國經濟，並確保美國經濟未來以穩健的方式成長）
ZAKARIA: Do you think you can continue to grow, if the United States goes into a major recession?
紮卡裏亞：如果美國經濟出現嚴重衰退的話，你認為中國經濟能夠持續增長嗎？
WEN (voice of interpreter): A possible U.S. economic recession will certainly have an impact on the Chinese economy, because we know that 10 years ago the China-U.S. trade volume stood at only US$102.6 billion, while today, the figure soared to US$302 billion - actually representing an increase of 1.5-fold. A shrinking of U.S. demand will certainly have an impact on China's export.
溫家寶：應該說，如果美國經濟出現衰退，一定會影響到中國經濟。因為我們大家都知道，中美之間的貿易額，在10年前，僅僅是1026億美元，但是現在已經達到3020億美元，幾乎是增長了一倍半，如果美國需求減少，一定會影響到中國的出口。
And U.S. finance is closely connected with the Chinese finance. If anything goes wrong in the U.S. financial sector, we are anxious about the safety and security of Chinese capital.
另外，美國的資金和中國的金融聯係是密切的，如果任何美國金融部門出了什麽問題，我們當然也擔心我們資金的安全。
That's why at the very beginning, I have made it clear that financial problems in this country not only concerns the interest of the United States, but also that of China and the world at large.
這也就是為什麽我一開始說的，並清楚表明的，美國的金融問題不僅關係美國的利益，也同樣關係到中國和世界的更大範圍的利益。
ZAKARIA: There is another sense in which we are interdependent. China is the largest holder of U.S. Treasury bills. By some accounts, you hold almost $1 trillion of it. It makes Americans - some Americans - uneasy. Can you reassure them that China would never use this status as a weapon in some form?
紮卡裏亞：這兒從另一個層麵來看我們相互依賴的問題。中國是美國最大的國債持有者，在一些賬戶，你擁有近萬億，它使得美國人---一些美國人心神不安，你能表明中國不會利用這一優勢在某些方麵作為武器攻擊美國，來打消他們的顧慮嗎？
WEN (voice of interpreter): As I said, we believe that the U.S. real economy is still solidly based, particularly in the high-tech industries and the basic industries.
溫家寶：（如果讓我說，）我認為美國的實體經濟仍然有牢固的基礎，特別是在高科技領域和基礎工業方麵，基礎是紮實的。
Now, something has gone wrong in the virtual economy. But if this problem is properly addressed, then it is still possible to stabilize the economy in this country.
現在，是在一些虛擬經濟（符號經濟）領域出了問題，如果這個問題被妥善解決了，美國的經濟仍然可以保持穩定。
The Chinese government hopes very much that the U.S. side will be able to stabilize its economy and finance as quickly as possible. And we also hope to see sustained development in the United States, as that will benefit China.
作為中國政府，我們非常希望美國盡可能迅速地穩定經濟和金融，我也希望看到美國有同樣速度的經濟發展，因為那樣對中國史有益的。
Of course, we are concerned about the safety and security of Chinese money here. But we believe that the United States is a credible country, and particularly at such difficult times, China has reached out to the United States.
我們當然會關心自己資金的安全，但是我們相信，美國是一個有信用的國家，而在美國經濟出現了困難的時候，我們伸出了手去，幫助美國。
And actually, we believe such a helping hand will help stabilize the entire global economy and finance, and to prevent major chaos from occurring in the global economic and financial system. I believe now, cooperation is everything.
而實際上，我們相信這樣將能夠幫助全球的經濟和金融趨於穩定，並能阻止全球經濟和金融體係的更大混亂，我以為，合作比什麽都重要。
ZAKARIA: Premier, when your country has grown, as you pointed out, 9.5 percent for 30 years - the fastest growth rate of any country in history - if people come to you and say to you, what is the Chinese model of succeeding as a developing country, what would you say the - what is the key to your success? What is the model?
紮卡裏亞：總理，正如你所指出的，你的國家連續30年保持9.5%的快速增長，是曆史上持續發展速度最快的國家。如果有人來到你麵前對你說，作為一個發展中國家，中國成功的秘訣是什麽？成功的關鍵是什麽？這是一種什麽模式？
WEN (voice of interpreter): By introducing reform and opening up, we have greatly emancipated productivity in China. We have one important thought, that socialism can also practice market economy.
溫家寶：改革開放，極大地解放了中國的生產力。我們（有）一個重要的觀念，社會主義也可以實行市場經濟。（你可以想想，為甚麽30年前中國不能像後來那樣快速發展？我想，這是因為我們在1978年實施了改革開放的政策，這就是中國成功的關鍵。我們有一個重要的思想，社會主義也可以搞市場經濟。製訂經濟政策，在政府宏觀調控下，充分發揮市場在資源配置方麵的作用。）
專訪第二部分視頻
(BEGIN VIDEO)電視畫麵開始（CNN網絡版第二部分）
ZAKARIA: People think that's a contradiction. You have the market economy where the market allocates resources. In socialism it's all central planning. How do you make both work?
紮卡裏亞：人們認為這是一個矛盾，你實行市場經濟，靠市場配置資源，而社會主義，所有一切是中央計劃。你如何讓兩者都起作用？
WEN (voice of interpreter): The complete formulation of our economic policy is to give full play to the basic role of market forces in allocating resources under the macroeconomic guidance and regulation of the government.
溫家寶：我們的經濟政策，如果要完整的陳述，那就是在整體經濟規劃和政府的宏觀調控下，充分發揮市場經濟的資源配置在整體經濟運行中所起的基礎性作用。
We have one important piece of experience of the past 30 years, that is to ensure that both the visible hand and invisible hand are given pull play in regulating the market forces.
我們過去的30年，有一條重要的經驗，就是要確保看得見的手（政府調控）和看不見的手（市場調控）這兩隻手，同時在調節市場上發揮作用。
If you are familiar with the classical works of Adam Smith, you know that there are two famous works of his. One is "The Wealth of Nations." The other is the book on the morality and ethics. And "The Wealth of Nations" deals more with the invisible hand, that is, there are the market forces. And the other book deals with social equity and justice. And in the other book he wrote, he stressed the importance of playing the regulatory role of the government to fairly distribute the wealth among the people.
其實，如果你讀過亞當・斯密斯（經典著作）的話，你就會知道他的兩本名著。一本是《國富論》，另一本是《道德情操論》。前者說的是市場的力量和作用，看不見的手，另一本書裏較多地闡述了社會公平和正義。在他的書裏，他強調國家要扮演重要的角色，通過政府的調節，把財富公平地分配到每個人手裏。
If in a country most of the wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few, then this country can hardly witness harmony and stability.
如果一個國家的大部分財富集中在少數人手裏，那麽，這個國家就很難看到和諧與穩定。
The same approach also applies to the current U.S. economy. To address the current economic and financial problems in this country, we need to apply not only the visible hand, but also the invisible hand.
同樣的情況，這也適用於現在美國的經濟。為解決美國目前經濟和金融問題，也是要采用兩隻手，不僅適用看得見的手，也適用看不見的手。
ZAKARIA: China's onward rise has taken many forms - economic, cultural and political. Naturally, it has had an increasingly active foreign policy - so far, somewhat narrowly focused on securing China's interests. I spoke to Premier Wen about China's larger world role.
紮卡裏亞：中國的向前崛起發生在許多方麵，經濟的，文化的，政治的。自然而然地，在外交政策方麵---目前，在一些中國感興趣的安全領域，所起的作用也日益增強。我問溫總理，關於這方麵中國在世界的角色。
ZAKARIA: Many people see China as a superpower already. And they wonder, why is it not being more active in political resolution of issues such as the issue of Darfur, or the issue of Iran and its nuclear ambitions.
紮卡裏亞：在許多人看來，中國已經是一個超級強國。但是他們很想知道，中國為什麽不在政治解決諸如達爾福爾問題和伊朗有發展核武的野心等問題上發揮自己更多的作用呢？
There's a hope that China will play a role as a responsible stakeholder - to use Robert Zoellick's phrase when he was deputy secretary of state - and that China will be more active in managing the political problems in the world, and that so far, it has not been active.
人們希望中國扮演有責任的利益相關者的重要角色，用當年美國副國務卿羅伯特•佐力克的話來說，中國應該在世界重大政治問題上起到更積極的作用，直到目前為止，還沒有看到中國的積極行動。
How would you react to that?
你對這些問題有何反應？
WEN (voice of interpreter): To answer this question, I need to correct some of the elements in your question. First, China is not a superpower.
溫家寶：（在回答你的問題之前），我首先要糾正你的提問（中的一個錯誤），中國不是一個超級強國。
Although China has a population of 1.3 billion, and although in recent years China has registered fairly fast economic and social development since reform and opening up, China still has this problem of unbalanced development between different regions and between China's urban and rural areas. China remains a developing country.
中國有13億人口，雖然這些年來因為改革開放，中國的經濟和社會取得了較快的發展，但是中國是一個發展中國家，中國仍然存在城鄉差別和區域發展不平衡的問題。
We still have 800 million farmers in rural areas, and we still dozens of million people living in poverty. To address our own problems, we need to do a great deal. China is not a superpower.
我們還有8億農民生活在鄉下，我們還有1200萬人的絕對貧困人口，6000萬人吃低保，靠吃救濟維持基本生活。同時，每年我們需要關照到2300萬城市失業者和大約2億進城找工作的農民。我們不是一個超級大國，我們還有大量的問題需要自己解決。
That's why we need to focus on our own development and on our efforts to improve people's lives.
這就是為什麽我們需要集中精力促進自身的發展，來努力改善人民的生活。
ZAKARIA: But surely, the Chinese government could pressure the Sudanese government, or the Iranian government, or the government in Burma to ease - to be less repressive. You have relations with all three of them.
紮卡裏亞：但是可以確信，中國政府能夠對蘇丹政府施加壓力，或者對伊朗政府，對緬甸政府，給與影響或者適當的動作，你們和上述三國都有（密切的）關係。
WEN (voice of interpreter): That brings me to your second question. Actually, in the international community, China is a justice-upholding country. We never trade our principles.
溫家寶：我現在回答你（前麵提）的第二個問題。實際上，中國在國際社會，是一個主持公平正義的國家，我們從來不會拿原則作交換。
Take the Darfur issue that you raised just now, for example. China has always advocated that we need to adopt a dual-track approach to seek a solution to the Darfur issue.
就拿你提到的達爾福爾問題來說，中國一直倡導采用多重形式和方法，解決達爾福爾問題。
China was among the first countries that sent - sending peacekeepers to Darfur. China was also the first country that gave assistance to Sudan. And we also keep our efforts to engage the leaders in Sudan, to try to seek a peaceful solution to the issue as quickly as possible.
中國是最早向達爾福爾派出國際維和部隊的國家，也是最早向蘇丹提供援助的國家。我們在不斷促使蘇丹領導人，努力尋求和平的手段讓蘇丹問題能夠早日得到解決。
ZAKARIA: Do you think it would be dangerous for the world if Iran got nuclear weapons? And what do you think the world should do to try to stop that possibility?
紮卡裏亞：你認為伊朗擁有核武器是危險的嗎？你如何看待世界應當努力製止的可能性？
WEN (voice of interpreter): We are not supportive of a nuclearized Iran. We believe that Iran has the right to develop the utilization of nuclear energy in a peaceful way. But such efforts should be subject to the safeguards of the IAEA, and Iran should not develop nuclear weapons. As far as the Iranian nuclear issue is concerned, China's stand is clear-cut.
我們不讚成伊朗擁有核武器，我們認為伊朗可以利用核能，有權走和平發展核能的道路，但是這些活動必須接受國際原子能組織的監督。但是伊朗不能發展核武器。目前，中國對伊朗問題是關注的，因此，在伊核問題上，我們的態度是十分鮮明的。
Nevertheless, we hope that we can use peaceful talks to achieve the purpose, rather than resort to the willful use of force or the intimidation of force.
不管怎麽說，我們都是希望能利用和談的方式達到目的，動則訴諸武力或者武力威脅無助於問題的解決。
It's like treating the relationship between two individuals. If one individual tries to corner the other, then the effect will be counterproductive. That will do nothing in helping resolve the problem. Our purpose is to resolve the problem, not to escalate tensions.
就像處理兩個人的關係一樣，如果一個人試圖將另一個人逼到牆角（絕境）的話，那會適得其反，不利於問題的解決。我們的目的是解決問題，而不是製造緊張局勢。
And I also have a question for you. Don't you think that the efforts made by China in resolving the Korean nuclear issue and the position we have adopted in this regard have actually helped the situation on the Korean Peninsula move for the better, day by day?
那我反過來問你，中國在處理朝核問題上，我們采用彼此尊重的積極態度，實際上有助於朝鮮半島局勢，一天一天向好的方向發展，你不認為中國在解決朝鮮核問題上所做出的努力嗎？
And of course, I know that it still takes time to see a thorough and a complete solution to the Korean nuclear issue and, on that basis, to help put in place security and stability in Northeast Asia. But what I would like to stress is that the model that we have adopted, and the efforts we have made, proved to be right in this direction.
當然，我知道，要看到朝鮮核問題徹底完全的解決，還要花費時間。基於這一點，我們將致力於推動東北亞的安全和穩定。但是我強調的是，我們所采用的這種方式和努力，證明這個方向是正確的。
ZAKARIA: Since you honored me by asking the question, I will say to you, Premier, that China's efforts in North Korea have been appreciated in the United States and around the world. And, of course, it makes people wish that China would be active in other areas in just the same productive way that it was in North Korea, because we see that it produces results.
紮卡裏亞：很榮幸能回答你的問題，我要對你說，總理，中國在朝鮮問題上的努力，美國和全世界是很感激的。正因為如此，在圍繞當今世界的許多方麵，人們期待中國發揮自己的作用積極介入，正像在朝鮮問題上那樣，讓我們看到產生的成果。
WEN (voice of interpreter): We have gained a lot of experience and learned lessons from years of negotiations concerning the Six- Party Talks. And the progress made in the Six-Party Talks also has a lot to do with the close cooperation among the six parties.
溫家寶：經曆了這麽多年的六方會談，我們學習到了許多課程並獲得了許多經驗，六方會談之所以取得進步，得益於參與的六方彼此之間有許多的密切合作。
(END VIDEO視頻二結束)
ZAKARIA: Up next, Premier Wen Jiabao addresses tough issues - the Dalai Lama and Tiananmen Square.
紮卡裏亞：下麵的內容，與溫家寶總理的談話觸及了達賴喇嘛和天安門廣場
專訪第三部分視頻
(BEGIN VIDEO)電視畫麵開始（CNN網絡版第三部分）
ZAKARIA: In my conversation with Wen Jiabao, China's premier, one of the most complex and controversial subjects was the discussion of democracy.
紮卡裏亞：在我與中國總理溫家寶的訪談中，最複雜並最有爭議的題目之一，是關於民主的討論。
Wen has deep experience with the issue. In 1989, he was one of the Communist Party officials who went to Tiananmen Square to talk to the protestors.
溫親身經曆了1989年學潮，他是來到天安門廣場與抗議者對話的共產黨官員之一，
I asked him whether that experience had made him want to slow down or stop political reform. Listen to what he had to say.
我問他那次經驗是否導致他希望放慢或停止政治改革，聽聽他是怎麽說的。
ZAKARIA: I will take advantage of your kindness and ask a question that many people around the world wonder about.
紮卡裏亞：我將利用你的善意問你一個全球許多人都想知道的一個問題
There is a very famous photograph of you at Tiananmen Square in 1989. What lesson did you take from your experiences in dealing with that problem in 1989?
這是拍攝於1989年你在天安門廣場的一張很著名的照片，處理1989年的問題，你從中獲得的經驗裏學到了什麽？
WEN (voice of interpreter): I believe that, while moving ahead with the economic reforms, we also need to advance political reforms. As our development is comprehensive in nature, our reform should also be comprehensive.
溫家寶：我覺得（認為），我們國家在推進經濟體製改革同時，必須繼續需推進政治體製改革，我們的發展應該是全麵的發展，我們改革也應該是全麵的改革。
I think the core of your question is about the development of democracy in China. I believe, when it comes to the development of democracy in China, we talk about progress to be made in three areas.
其實你的問題的核心，是關心中國的民主政治發展。我認為，民主政治在中國的發展，不外乎在三個方麵：
Number one, we need to gradually improve the democratic election system, so that state power will truly belong to the people, and state power will be used to serve the people.
第一，逐步完善民主選舉製度，使國家權力真正屬於人民，國家的權力真正服務於人民。
Number two, we need to improve the legal system, run the country according to law and establish the country under the rule of law. And we need to build an independent and just judicial system.
第二，改革完善法律製度，依法治國，建立法治國家，使司法保持獨立和公正。
Number three, government should be subject to oversight by the people, and if (ph) you ask us, call on us to increase transparency in government affairs. And particularly, it is also necessary for government to accept oversight by the news media and other parties.
第三，政府必須接受群眾的監督，增加政府的清廉和透明度，特別是，政府要接受新聞媒體和其他黨派的監督。（還有一個很重要因素，在中國發展民主，必須考慮中國的國情，需要引進適合中國國情的製度，要循序漸進。）
ZAKARIA: When I go to China and I'm in the hotel, and if I type in the words "Tiananmen Square" in my computer, I get a firewall, what some people call "the Great Firewall of China." Can you be an advanced society, if you don't have freedom of information, to find out information on the Internet?
紮拉裏亞：我在中國住酒店時，如果我在電腦中輸入“天安門廣場”的字眼，會碰到防火牆阻擋，有人稱為“偉大的中國防火牆”。你認為，如果一個資訊不開放的社會、不能在互聯網上找到信息的社會，能成為一個先進社會嗎？
WEN (voice of interpreter): China now has over 200 million Internet users. And the freedom of Internet in China is recognized by many, even from the West.
溫家寶：中國的互聯網，現在有超過兩億互聯網用戶。中國互聯網是自由的，即使是西方國家的許多人所公認的。
Nonetheless, to uphold state security, China, like many countries in the world, has also imposed some proper restrictions. And that is for the safety - that is for the overall safety of the country and for the freedom of the majority of the people.
當然，為了維護國家安全，任何國家都會對互聯網采取必要的限製。這也是為了維護更多人的自由和為了國家的安全。
I can also tell you, on the Internet in China, you can have access to a lot of postings that are quite critical about the government. I frequently browse the Internet.
我也可以告訴你，你也可以在中國的互聯網，看到許多直接批評政府的帖子，通過讀那些帖子，我們可以找出存在問題，進一步改進工作。我不認為一個製度或政府應該害怕批評的意見或看法。我經常瀏覽互聯網，了解情況。
ZAKARIA: What are your favorite sites?
紮拉裏亞：你最喜歡的站點是什麽？
WEN (voice of interpreter): I browsed a lot of Internet web sites.
溫家寶：我瀏覽過許多網站。
ZAKARIA: May I ask you about another set of possible talks? The Dalai Lama has said, now, it appears that he would accept China's rule in Tibet. He accepts the socialist system in Tibet. And what he asks for is cultural autonomy and a certain degree of political autonomy.
紮卡裏亞：我可以問你關於另一個可能的會談嗎？達賴喇嘛過去說過，現在公開表明，他願意接受中國對西藏的管轄，他願意接受目前在西藏的社會製度，他所尋求的是文化的自治和一定程度上的政治的自治。
The talks apparently are stuck at a lower level between the Tibetans and the Chinese government. Why don't you, given your power and your negotiating skills, take the issue yourself, and you or President Hu Jintao were to negotiate directly with the Dalai Lama and solve this issue once and for all, for the benefit of the Chinese people and, of course, the Tibetan people who are also in China?
這個會談，顯然在藏人和中國中央政府之間較低級別的層次上卡住了，你為什麽不運用你的權力和談判技巧，由你或國家主席胡錦濤接手，與達賴喇嘛直接談判，解決西藏問題，以造福於中國人民，當然也包括在中國的西藏人民？
WEN (voice of interpreter): In many places all over the world, the Dalai Lama keeps preaching about the idea of the so-called autonomy in the greater Tibetan region. And actually, the so-called autonomy that he pursues is actually to use religion to intervene in politics. And they want to separate the so-called "greater Tibetan region" from the motherland.
溫家寶：他在世界的許多地方，大力宣揚所謂大藏區的所謂的自治，其目的實際上就是利用宗教，幹預政治，試圖使“大藏區”從中國分裂脫離出去。
And many people in the United States have no idea how big is the so-called "greater Tibetan region." The so-called "greater Tibetan region," preached by the Dalai Lama, actually covers Tibet, Sichuan, Yunnan, Qinghai and Gansu - altogether, five provinces. And the area covered by this so-called "greater Tibetan region" accounts for a quarter of China's territory.
很多美國人並不知道，“大藏區”究竟有多大？達賴喇嘛鼓吹的所謂“大藏區”，包括西藏、四川、雲南、青海和甘肅---五個省，所涉及的領土，相當於中國領土的四分之一。（我們和達賴的問題不是民族、宗教或文化問題，而是關係到維護國家統一的原則問題。我們要看到達賴的兩麵性，他一方麵是宗教領袖，在西藏具有一定的影響力，特別是在宗教方麵；另一方麵，他不是普通的宗教人物，他建立的所謂西藏流亡政府，就是要把西藏從中國分裂出去。）
For decades, our policy towards the Dalai Lama remains unchanged. That is, as long as the Dalai Lama is willing to recognize that Tibet is an inalienable part of China's territory, and as long as the Dalai Lama gives up his separatist activities, we are willing to have contact and talks with him or his representatives. Now, sincerity holds the key to producing results out of the talks.
幾十年來，我們對達賴的政策始終未變，隻要他承認西藏是中國領土不可分割的一部份，並且放棄分裂圖謀，我們就願意和他或者他的代表進行接觸、對話，商談的結果在於要有誠意。我是否與他接觸並不是問題。我們希望他用行動表明誠意，打破僵局。
(END VIDEO視頻三結束)
專訪第四部分視頻
(BEGIN VIDEO)電視畫麵開始（CNN網絡版第四部分）
ZAKARIA: What action would you like to see from the Dalai Lama that would show sincerity?
紮卡裏亞：你希望看到達賴喇嘛用什麽行動來表達其誠意？
WEN (voice of interpreter): Actually, I already made it clear that, when we observe any individual, the Dalai Lama included, we should not only watch what - we should not only observe what he says, but also watch what he does.
溫家寶：實際上我已經清楚表明了。我們觀察任何人，包括達賴喇嘛，我們不隻要聽他說什麽，還要看他做什麽，必要時我們也會考慮提高對話的層次。
His sincerity can be demonstrated in giving up separatist activities. But then, everything depends on the development of the situation.
他的誠意就是能夠真正放棄分裂祖國的活動，到那個時候我們再看事態的發展。
ZAKARIA: China's premier, Wen Jiabao, is a reading man a poet, and I asked him about something he was reading.
中國的總理溫家寶，是一個喜歡讀書和作詩的人，我問他過去讀過的一些書。
ZAKARIA: You have said that you have read the works of Marcus Aurelius 100 times. Marcus Aurelius is a famous Stoic philosopher.
紮卡裏亞：你說過你曾經上百次讀過馬克・奧裏利烏斯作品，他是一個著名的哲學家。
My reading of him says that one should not be involved in the self and in any kind of pursuits that are self-interested, but should be more for the community as a whole.
從他的書裏我讀到，他說一個人不應當隻是關注自我，注重自我的利益，應當更多的考慮到社會這個整體。
When I go to China these days, I'm struck by how much individualism there is, how much consumerism there is. Are you trying to send a signal to the Chinese people to think less about themselves and more about the community?
我在中國的日子裏，看到太多的人傾向於個人主義和消費享樂主義，你是否試圖傳遞給他們一個信號，讓中國人更多的關注這個社會而不僅僅是自己？
WEN (voice of interpreter): It is true. I did read the "Meditations" written by Marcus Aurelius Antonio many occasions. And I was very deeply impressed by the words that he wrote in the book to the effect that, where are those people who were great for a time? They are all gone, living only a story, or some even just half a story. So, I draw the conclusion that only people are in the position to create history and to write history.
溫家寶：我是說過，我曾多次讀過馬克・奧裏利烏斯寫的《沉思錄》，他在書裏寫的話深深打動了我，我對其中的一句話記憶很深刻：看那些所謂赫赫一時的人物，現在都到哪裏去了？最後都煙消雲散了，留下的隻是一個故事，有的連一個故事還不是，隻是半個故事，真正創造曆史的、並且書寫曆史的，隻有人民。
I very much value morality. And I do believe that entrepreneurs, economists and statesmen alike should pay much more attention to morality and ethics.
我十分重視道德，我認為企業家、經濟學家、政治家都應該更多的關注道德和職業操守。
In my mind, the highest standard to measure the ethics and morality is justice.
在我的思想裏，衡量道德和道德規範的最高標準，就是公正。
It is true, in the course of China's economic development, some companies have actually pursued their profits at the expense of morality. And we will never allow such things to happen. We will not allow economic growth at the expense of the loss of morality, because such an approach simply cannot be sustained. That's why we advocate corporate, occupational and social ethics.
我們在經濟發展過程中，許多企業為了追逐利潤而喪失了道德，這是我所不允許的。我們決不允許喪失道德來發展經濟，因為那注定是不會持久的，因此我們提倡要有企業道德、職業道德和社會道德。
ZAKARIA: You've talked about elections many times. Do you think in 25 years there will be national elections in which there will be a competition, there will be perhaps two parties running for the positions such as your own?
紮拉裏亞：關於選舉，你以前談過多次，那麽，25年後，中國是否會通過國家選舉，讓兩個政黨來競爭像你這樣的國家領導人的席位呢？
WEN (voice of interpreter): It's hard for me to predict what will happen in 25 years' time.This being said, I have this conviction that China's democracy will continue to grow.
溫家寶： 25年以後的事情我很難預見，這個問題我開始的時候說過，但是我有一個信念，我認為中國的民主政治一定會繼續發展。
In 20 to 30 years' time, the whole Chinese society will be more democratic and fairer, and the legal system in China will further be improved. Socialism, as we see it, will further mature and improve.
再過二、三十年，中國將會更加民主，法製會更加完善，社會，會更加公正。
ZAKARIA: On that happy note, I thank you, Your Excellency. I'm sure your people are worried that we've taken a little bit extra time. And I thank you in advance for your kindness and your frankness.
紮卡裏亞：總理閣下，謝謝您，我相信您的部下已經不開心了，我們已經超出了一點點預定的訪談時間，再次謝謝你的善意和你的坦誠。
(END VIDEO視頻結束)
《驚豔：無與倫比天仙美女 公然裸躺北美大地（組圖）》
我的更多搏文〉〉〉（點擊直接進入，歡迎光臨寒舍，恭候批評指教）
Meeting with World Leaders at the United Nations
Aired September 28, 2008 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRAN. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.（注：本貼英文版內容和參考視頻來自CNN）
FAREED ZAKARIA, HOST, GLOBAL PUBLIC SQUARE: Welcome to GPS, the GLOBAL PUBLIC SQUARE, to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Fareed Zakaria.
It's U.N. week in New York, the annual opening of the General Assembly. I had the chance to speak with several heads of state, among them Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, and we'll show you that interview.
法裏德・紮卡裏亞：歡迎你來到GPS（the GLOBAL PUBLIC SQUARE），我們的觀眾遍布美國和全球，我是法裏德・紮卡裏亞。在紐約過去的一周，聯大峰會期間，我有機會采訪了幾個國家的領導人，其中有阿富汗總統哈米德・卡爾紮伊，隨後你將會看到這次訪談。
But first, I also had the rare opportunity to meet with one of the most powerful men on earth, Wen Jiabao, the prime minister of China. I met with him in his suite at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in New York.
但是首先我要介紹的是，我也有了一個很難得的機會，訪問世界的強人之一，中國的國務院總理溫家寶，這次訪談在他居住的紐約阿道夫酒店的套房進行。
He hasn't given a television interview in five years. In fact, he has rarely spoken to American journalists. It was an extraordinary opportunity to speak with him at this crucial moment in history.
在過去的五年裏，他還沒有接受過這樣的電視訪談。事實上，他很少對美國的媒體和記者發表談話。在這個曆史至關重要的時刻，能夠和他交談，是一次特別的機會。
China's rise to power is probably the single most important trend of our lifetime. It's changing the world. Yet we know so little about the country and the men who rule it. They control this vast land of 1.3 billion people, but they also have enormous influence over your life.
中國力量的崛起，或許是我們這一生中所目睹的一個最重要情勢，她正在改變這個世界。而我們對於這樣的一個國家和管理這個國家的人，還知之甚少。
The Chinese are by far the largest holders of American debt, for example. They buy billions of dollars' worth of American Treasury bills every week.
中國是美國國債的最大持有者，她每個星期從美國財政部購買價值10億美元的國債。
What if they were to lose faith in America?
假如他們失去對美國的信任，將會發生什麽？
(BEGIN VIDEO)電視畫麵開始（CNN網絡版的第一部分）
The first thing you should know about Wen Jiabao is that he is quite different from other Chinese leaders of the modern era. In China, his people have a nickname for him - Grandpa Wen.
你應當知道的關於溫家寶第一件事情，就是他與當代和以往年代的其他中國領導人相當的不同，在中國，人們對他有一個親切的昵稱：溫爺爺。
After this year's disastrous earthquake in Sichuan, he flew immediately to the devastated area, went out among the people to comfort them and met with many individually. He's more like an American politician than a Chinese apparatchik.
今年造成慘重損失的四川地震發生後，他立即飛到災區，來到人民中間，探訪災民，安慰他們。他看起來不像是一個中國政治組織的領導人，更像是一個美國的政治家。
He is also, of course, an agile politician inside the labyrinthine ranks of his own party. A geologist by training, he manages to push reform through without alienating this conservative opponents.
當然，他在自己政黨內的曲折起伏，經過曆練，讓他從一個地質學家成為一個靈活的政治家，頂著保守派的壓力，管理並推進改革。
There were some conditions to my interview with Premier Wen. My condition was that I be allowed to ask any questions I wished, which the Chinese accepted. One of theirs was that I not comment on or characterize the substance of the interview. So I won't - except to say that I thought it was the most open and frank conversation I had ever seen or read with a Chinese leader.
專訪溫總理，有一些前提條件。我的條件是，我可以問我想問的任何問題，而不能受到限製，中國方麵接受了。他們的條件之一是，我不能夠評論或者刻意表現自己的主題，所以，我不能---我想說的除外。在我看過的、閱讀過的與中國領導人訪談中，他是最開放、最坦誠的。
WEN JIABAO, PREMIER OF CHINA (voice of interpreter): Before we begin, I'd like to let you know that I will use the words from the bottom of my heart to answer your question, which means that I will tell the truth to all your questions.
中國總理溫家寶：（在我們開始前，，，我習慣長篇大論的講話了，所以你可以隨時打斷我。這樣的話，我們的對話會更生動，，，）我還想給你說一句話，我想讓你知道，我一定會回答你的所有問題。我講的話，都是發自心底的話，也就是說，對你所有的問題，我的回答都是真實的。
ZAKARIA: I look forward to the chance for this dialogue. And I begin by thanking you for giving us the opportunity and the honor.
紮卡裏亞：我期待這次和你對話的機會，訪談開始前，我要感謝你給與我們這個機會和榮譽。
The first thing I have to ask you I think is on many people's minds. What do you think of the current financial crisis affecting the United States? And does it make you think that the American model has many flaws in it that we are just recognizing now?
我必須要問你的第一個問題，我想許多人都會很關心，你怎麽看待當前美國的金融危機？這事兒會使你認為美國的模式有許多缺點嗎，而我們現在才剛剛認識到？
WEN (voice of interpreter): The crisis that occurred in the United States may have an impact that will affect the whole world.
溫家寶：（我是6年前開始成為中國的總理的，，，再次之前，我是副總理，那個時候，亞洲出現了金融危機，，，。現在美國的問題，，，遭遇了）係統性的問題，目前在美國的危機很可能會有一個衝擊，影響到整個世界。
Nonetheless, in face of such a crisis, we must also be aware that today's world is different from the world that people lived in back in the 1930s.
但是，麵對這個危機，我們必須認識到，現在的世界，與30年代不同。
So this time, we should join hands and meet the crisis together. If the financial and economic systems in the United States go wrong, then the impact will be felt not only in this country, but also in China, in Asia and in the world at large.
所以我們應當攜起手來，共同應對這場危機。因為美國的金融和經濟出了問題，它所帶來的影響，那不僅會影響到美國，也會波及中國、亞洲和世界的廣大範圍。
I have noted the host of policies and measures adopted by the U.S. government to prevent an isolated crisis from becoming a systematic one. And I hope that measures and steps that they have adopted will pay off.
我已經高度注意到美國政府采用一係列政策和措施，為了阻止一個局部的危機演變為係統的危機，我希望這些措施和步驟能夠挽救金融機構。（，，，同時也能幫助穩定美國經濟，並確保美國經濟未來以穩健的方式成長）
ZAKARIA: Do you think you can continue to grow, if the United States goes into a major recession?
紮卡裏亞：如果美國經濟出現嚴重衰退的話，你認為中國經濟能夠持續增長嗎？
WEN (voice of interpreter): A possible U.S. economic recession will certainly have an impact on the Chinese economy, because we know that 10 years ago the China-U.S. trade volume stood at only US$102.6 billion, while today, the figure soared to US$302 billion - actually representing an increase of 1.5-fold. A shrinking of U.S. demand will certainly have an impact on China's export.
溫家寶：應該說，如果美國經濟出現衰退，一定會影響到中國經濟。因為我們大家都知道，中美之間的貿易額，在10年前，僅僅是1026億美元，但是現在已經達到3020億美元，幾乎是增長了一倍半，如果美國需求減少，一定會影響到中國的出口。
And U.S. finance is closely connected with the Chinese finance. If anything goes wrong in the U.S. financial sector, we are anxious about the safety and security of Chinese capital.
另外，美國的資金和中國的金融聯係是密切的，如果任何美國金融部門出了什麽問題，我們當然也擔心我們資金的安全。
That's why at the very beginning, I have made it clear that financial problems in this country not only concerns the interest of the United States, but also that of China and the world at large.
這也就是為什麽我一開始說的，並清楚表明的，美國的金融問題不僅關係美國的利益，也同樣關係到中國和世界的更大範圍的利益。
ZAKARIA: There is another sense in which we are interdependent. China is the largest holder of U.S. Treasury bills. By some accounts, you hold almost $1 trillion of it. It makes Americans - some Americans - uneasy. Can you reassure them that China would never use this status as a weapon in some form?
紮卡裏亞：這兒從另一個層麵來看我們相互依賴的問題。中國是美國最大的國債持有者，在一些賬戶，你擁有近萬億，它使得美國人---一些美國人心神不安，你能表明中國不會利用這一優勢在某些方麵作為武器攻擊美國，來打消他們的顧慮嗎？
WEN (voice of interpreter): As I said, we believe that the U.S. real economy is still solidly based, particularly in the high-tech industries and the basic industries.
溫家寶：（如果讓我說，）我認為美國的實體經濟仍然有牢固的基礎，特別是在高科技領域和基礎工業方麵，基礎是紮實的。
Now, something has gone wrong in the virtual economy. But if this problem is properly addressed, then it is still possible to stabilize the economy in this country.
現在，是在一些虛擬經濟（符號經濟）領域出了問題，如果這個問題被妥善解決了，美國的經濟仍然可以保持穩定。
The Chinese government hopes very much that the U.S. side will be able to stabilize its economy and finance as quickly as possible. And we also hope to see sustained development in the United States, as that will benefit China.
作為中國政府，我們非常希望美國盡可能迅速地穩定經濟和金融，我也希望看到美國有同樣速度的經濟發展，因為那樣對中國史有益的。
Of course, we are concerned about the safety and security of Chinese money here. But we believe that the United States is a credible country, and particularly at such difficult times, China has reached out to the United States.
我們當然會關心自己資金的安全，但是我們相信，美國是一個有信用的國家，而在美國經濟出現了困難的時候，我們伸出了手去，幫助美國。
And actually, we believe such a helping hand will help stabilize the entire global economy and finance, and to prevent major chaos from occurring in the global economic and financial system. I believe now, cooperation is everything.
而實際上，我們相信這樣將能夠幫助全球的經濟和金融趨於穩定，並能阻止全球經濟和金融體係的更大混亂，我以為，合作比什麽都重要。
ZAKARIA: Premier, when your country has grown, as you pointed out, 9.5 percent for 30 years - the fastest growth rate of any country in history - if people come to you and say to you, what is the Chinese model of succeeding as a developing country, what would you say the - what is the key to your success? What is the model?
紮卡裏亞：總理，正如你所指出的，你的國家連續30年保持9.5%的快速增長，是曆史上持續發展速度最快的國家。如果有人來到你麵前對你說，作為一個發展中國家，中國成功的秘訣是什麽？成功的關鍵是什麽？這是一種什麽模式？
WEN (voice of interpreter): By introducing reform and opening up, we have greatly emancipated productivity in China. We have one important thought, that socialism can also practice market economy.
溫家寶：改革開放，極大地解放了中國的生產力。我們（有）一個重要的觀念，社會主義也可以實行市場經濟。（你可以想想，為甚麽30年前中國不能像後來那樣快速發展？我想，這是因為我們在1978年實施了改革開放的政策，這就是中國成功的關鍵。我們有一個重要的思想，社會主義也可以搞市場經濟。製訂經濟政策，在政府宏觀調控下，充分發揮市場在資源配置方麵的作用。）
(BEGIN VIDEO)電視畫麵開始（CNN網絡版第二部分）
ZAKARIA: People think that's a contradiction. You have the market economy where the market allocates resources. In socialism it's all central planning. How do you make both work?
紮卡裏亞：人們認為這是一個矛盾，你實行市場經濟，靠市場配置資源，而社會主義，所有一切是中央計劃。你如何讓兩者都起作用？
WEN (voice of interpreter): The complete formulation of our economic policy is to give full play to the basic role of market forces in allocating resources under the macroeconomic guidance and regulation of the government.
溫家寶：我們的經濟政策，如果要完整的陳述，那就是在整體經濟規劃和政府的宏觀調控下，充分發揮市場經濟的資源配置在整體經濟運行中所起的基礎性作用。
We have one important piece of experience of the past 30 years, that is to ensure that both the visible hand and invisible hand are given pull play in regulating the market forces.
我們過去的30年，有一條重要的經驗，就是要確保看得見的手（政府調控）和看不見的手（市場調控）這兩隻手，同時在調節市場上發揮作用。
If you are familiar with the classical works of Adam Smith, you know that there are two famous works of his. One is "The Wealth of Nations." The other is the book on the morality and ethics. And "The Wealth of Nations" deals more with the invisible hand, that is, there are the market forces. And the other book deals with social equity and justice. And in the other book he wrote, he stressed the importance of playing the regulatory role of the government to fairly distribute the wealth among the people.
其實，如果你讀過亞當・斯密斯（經典著作）的話，你就會知道他的兩本名著。一本是《國富論》，另一本是《道德情操論》。前者說的是市場的力量和作用，看不見的手，另一本書裏較多地闡述了社會公平和正義。在他的書裏，他強調國家要扮演重要的角色，通過政府的調節，把財富公平地分配到每個人手裏。
If in a country most of the wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few, then this country can hardly witness harmony and stability.
如果一個國家的大部分財富集中在少數人手裏，那麽，這個國家就很難看到和諧與穩定。
The same approach also applies to the current U.S. economy. To address the current economic and financial problems in this country, we need to apply not only the visible hand, but also the invisible hand.
同樣的情況，這也適用於現在美國的經濟。為解決美國目前經濟和金融問題，也是要采用兩隻手，不僅適用看得見的手，也適用看不見的手。
ZAKARIA: China's onward rise has taken many forms - economic, cultural and political. Naturally, it has had an increasingly active foreign policy - so far, somewhat narrowly focused on securing China's interests. I spoke to Premier Wen about China's larger world role.
紮卡裏亞：中國的向前崛起發生在許多方麵，經濟的，文化的，政治的。自然而然地，在外交政策方麵---目前，在一些中國感興趣的安全領域，所起的作用也日益增強。我問溫總理，關於這方麵中國在世界的角色。
ZAKARIA: Many people see China as a superpower already. And they wonder, why is it not being more active in political resolution of issues such as the issue of Darfur, or the issue of Iran and its nuclear ambitions.
紮卡裏亞：在許多人看來，中國已經是一個超級強國。但是他們很想知道，中國為什麽不在政治解決諸如達爾福爾問題和伊朗有發展核武的野心等問題上發揮自己更多的作用呢？
There's a hope that China will play a role as a responsible stakeholder - to use Robert Zoellick's phrase when he was deputy secretary of state - and that China will be more active in managing the political problems in the world, and that so far, it has not been active.
人們希望中國扮演有責任的利益相關者的重要角色，用當年美國副國務卿羅伯特•佐力克的話來說，中國應該在世界重大政治問題上起到更積極的作用，直到目前為止，還沒有看到中國的積極行動。
How would you react to that?
你對這些問題有何反應？
WEN (voice of interpreter): To answer this question, I need to correct some of the elements in your question. First, China is not a superpower.
溫家寶：（在回答你的問題之前），我首先要糾正你的提問（中的一個錯誤），中國不是一個超級強國。
Although China has a population of 1.3 billion, and although in recent years China has registered fairly fast economic and social development since reform and opening up, China still has this problem of unbalanced development between different regions and between China's urban and rural areas. China remains a developing country.
中國有13億人口，雖然這些年來因為改革開放，中國的經濟和社會取得了較快的發展，但是中國是一個發展中國家，中國仍然存在城鄉差別和區域發展不平衡的問題。
We still have 800 million farmers in rural areas, and we still dozens of million people living in poverty. To address our own problems, we need to do a great deal. China is not a superpower.
我們還有8億農民生活在鄉下，我們還有1200萬人的絕對貧困人口，6000萬人吃低保，靠吃救濟維持基本生活。同時，每年我們需要關照到2300萬城市失業者和大約2億進城找工作的農民。我們不是一個超級大國，我們還有大量的問題需要自己解決。
That's why we need to focus on our own development and on our efforts to improve people's lives.
這就是為什麽我們需要集中精力促進自身的發展，來努力改善人民的生活。
ZAKARIA: But surely, the Chinese government could pressure the Sudanese government, or the Iranian government, or the government in Burma to ease - to be less repressive. You have relations with all three of them.
紮卡裏亞：但是可以確信，中國政府能夠對蘇丹政府施加壓力，或者對伊朗政府，對緬甸政府，給與影響或者適當的動作，你們和上述三國都有（密切的）關係。
WEN (voice of interpreter): That brings me to your second question. Actually, in the international community, China is a justice-upholding country. We never trade our principles.
溫家寶：我現在回答你（前麵提）的第二個問題。實際上，中國在國際社會，是一個主持公平正義的國家，我們從來不會拿原則作交換。
Take the Darfur issue that you raised just now, for example. China has always advocated that we need to adopt a dual-track approach to seek a solution to the Darfur issue.
就拿你提到的達爾福爾問題來說，中國一直倡導采用多重形式和方法，解決達爾福爾問題。
China was among the first countries that sent - sending peacekeepers to Darfur. China was also the first country that gave assistance to Sudan. And we also keep our efforts to engage the leaders in Sudan, to try to seek a peaceful solution to the issue as quickly as possible.
中國是最早向達爾福爾派出國際維和部隊的國家，也是最早向蘇丹提供援助的國家。我們在不斷促使蘇丹領導人，努力尋求和平的手段讓蘇丹問題能夠早日得到解決。
ZAKARIA: Do you think it would be dangerous for the world if Iran got nuclear weapons? And what do you think the world should do to try to stop that possibility?
紮卡裏亞：你認為伊朗擁有核武器是危險的嗎？你如何看待世界應當努力製止的可能性？
WEN (voice of interpreter): We are not supportive of a nuclearized Iran. We believe that Iran has the right to develop the utilization of nuclear energy in a peaceful way. But such efforts should be subject to the safeguards of the IAEA, and Iran should not develop nuclear weapons. As far as the Iranian nuclear issue is concerned, China's stand is clear-cut.
我們不讚成伊朗擁有核武器，我們認為伊朗可以利用核能，有權走和平發展核能的道路，但是這些活動必須接受國際原子能組織的監督。但是伊朗不能發展核武器。目前，中國對伊朗問題是關注的，因此，在伊核問題上，我們的態度是十分鮮明的。
Nevertheless, we hope that we can use peaceful talks to achieve the purpose, rather than resort to the willful use of force or the intimidation of force.
不管怎麽說，我們都是希望能利用和談的方式達到目的，動則訴諸武力或者武力威脅無助於問題的解決。
It's like treating the relationship between two individuals. If one individual tries to corner the other, then the effect will be counterproductive. That will do nothing in helping resolve the problem. Our purpose is to resolve the problem, not to escalate tensions.
就像處理兩個人的關係一樣，如果一個人試圖將另一個人逼到牆角（絕境）的話，那會適得其反，不利於問題的解決。我們的目的是解決問題，而不是製造緊張局勢。
And I also have a question for you. Don't you think that the efforts made by China in resolving the Korean nuclear issue and the position we have adopted in this regard have actually helped the situation on the Korean Peninsula move for the better, day by day?
那我反過來問你，中國在處理朝核問題上，我們采用彼此尊重的積極態度，實際上有助於朝鮮半島局勢，一天一天向好的方向發展，你不認為中國在解決朝鮮核問題上所做出的努力嗎？
And of course, I know that it still takes time to see a thorough and a complete solution to the Korean nuclear issue and, on that basis, to help put in place security and stability in Northeast Asia. But what I would like to stress is that the model that we have adopted, and the efforts we have made, proved to be right in this direction.
當然，我知道，要看到朝鮮核問題徹底完全的解決，還要花費時間。基於這一點，我們將致力於推動東北亞的安全和穩定。但是我強調的是，我們所采用的這種方式和努力，證明這個方向是正確的。
ZAKARIA: Since you honored me by asking the question, I will say to you, Premier, that China's efforts in North Korea have been appreciated in the United States and around the world. And, of course, it makes people wish that China would be active in other areas in just the same productive way that it was in North Korea, because we see that it produces results.
紮卡裏亞：很榮幸能回答你的問題，我要對你說，總理，中國在朝鮮問題上的努力，美國和全世界是很感激的。正因為如此，在圍繞當今世界的許多方麵，人們期待中國發揮自己的作用積極介入，正像在朝鮮問題上那樣，讓我們看到產生的成果。
WEN (voice of interpreter): We have gained a lot of experience and learned lessons from years of negotiations concerning the Six- Party Talks. And the progress made in the Six-Party Talks also has a lot to do with the close cooperation among the six parties.
溫家寶：經曆了這麽多年的六方會談，我們學習到了許多課程並獲得了許多經驗，六方會談之所以取得進步，得益於參與的六方彼此之間有許多的密切合作。
(END VIDEO視頻二結束)
ZAKARIA: Up next, Premier Wen Jiabao addresses tough issues - the Dalai Lama and Tiananmen Square.
紮卡裏亞：下麵的內容，與溫家寶總理的談話觸及了達賴喇嘛和天安門廣場
(BEGIN VIDEO)電視畫麵開始（CNN網絡版第三部分）
ZAKARIA: In my conversation with Wen Jiabao, China's premier, one of the most complex and controversial subjects was the discussion of democracy.
紮卡裏亞：在我與中國總理溫家寶的訪談中，最複雜並最有爭議的題目之一，是關於民主的討論。
Wen has deep experience with the issue. In 1989, he was one of the Communist Party officials who went to Tiananmen Square to talk to the protestors.
溫親身經曆了1989年學潮，他是來到天安門廣場與抗議者對話的共產黨官員之一，
I asked him whether that experience had made him want to slow down or stop political reform. Listen to what he had to say.
我問他那次經驗是否導致他希望放慢或停止政治改革，聽聽他是怎麽說的。
ZAKARIA: I will take advantage of your kindness and ask a question that many people around the world wonder about.
紮卡裏亞：我將利用你的善意問你一個全球許多人都想知道的一個問題
There is a very famous photograph of you at Tiananmen Square in 1989. What lesson did you take from your experiences in dealing with that problem in 1989?
這是拍攝於1989年你在天安門廣場的一張很著名的照片，處理1989年的問題，你從中獲得的經驗裏學到了什麽？
WEN (voice of interpreter): I believe that, while moving ahead with the economic reforms, we also need to advance political reforms. As our development is comprehensive in nature, our reform should also be comprehensive.
溫家寶：我覺得（認為），我們國家在推進經濟體製改革同時，必須繼續需推進政治體製改革，我們的發展應該是全麵的發展，我們改革也應該是全麵的改革。
I think the core of your question is about the development of democracy in China. I believe, when it comes to the development of democracy in China, we talk about progress to be made in three areas.
其實你的問題的核心，是關心中國的民主政治發展。我認為，民主政治在中國的發展，不外乎在三個方麵：
Number one, we need to gradually improve the democratic election system, so that state power will truly belong to the people, and state power will be used to serve the people.
第一，逐步完善民主選舉製度，使國家權力真正屬於人民，國家的權力真正服務於人民。
Number two, we need to improve the legal system, run the country according to law and establish the country under the rule of law. And we need to build an independent and just judicial system.
第二，改革完善法律製度，依法治國，建立法治國家，使司法保持獨立和公正。
Number three, government should be subject to oversight by the people, and if (ph) you ask us, call on us to increase transparency in government affairs. And particularly, it is also necessary for government to accept oversight by the news media and other parties.
第三，政府必須接受群眾的監督，增加政府的清廉和透明度，特別是，政府要接受新聞媒體和其他黨派的監督。（還有一個很重要因素，在中國發展民主，必須考慮中國的國情，需要引進適合中國國情的製度，要循序漸進。）
ZAKARIA: When I go to China and I'm in the hotel, and if I type in the words "Tiananmen Square" in my computer, I get a firewall, what some people call "the Great Firewall of China." Can you be an advanced society, if you don't have freedom of information, to find out information on the Internet?
紮拉裏亞：我在中國住酒店時，如果我在電腦中輸入“天安門廣場”的字眼，會碰到防火牆阻擋，有人稱為“偉大的中國防火牆”。你認為，如果一個資訊不開放的社會、不能在互聯網上找到信息的社會，能成為一個先進社會嗎？
WEN (voice of interpreter): China now has over 200 million Internet users. And the freedom of Internet in China is recognized by many, even from the West.
溫家寶：中國的互聯網，現在有超過兩億互聯網用戶。中國互聯網是自由的，即使是西方國家的許多人所公認的。
Nonetheless, to uphold state security, China, like many countries in the world, has also imposed some proper restrictions. And that is for the safety - that is for the overall safety of the country and for the freedom of the majority of the people.
當然，為了維護國家安全，任何國家都會對互聯網采取必要的限製。這也是為了維護更多人的自由和為了國家的安全。
I can also tell you, on the Internet in China, you can have access to a lot of postings that are quite critical about the government. I frequently browse the Internet.
我也可以告訴你，你也可以在中國的互聯網，看到許多直接批評政府的帖子，通過讀那些帖子，我們可以找出存在問題，進一步改進工作。我不認為一個製度或政府應該害怕批評的意見或看法。我經常瀏覽互聯網，了解情況。
ZAKARIA: What are your favorite sites?
紮拉裏亞：你最喜歡的站點是什麽？
WEN (voice of interpreter): I browsed a lot of Internet web sites.
溫家寶：我瀏覽過許多網站。
ZAKARIA: May I ask you about another set of possible talks? The Dalai Lama has said, now, it appears that he would accept China's rule in Tibet. He accepts the socialist system in Tibet. And what he asks for is cultural autonomy and a certain degree of political autonomy.
紮卡裏亞：我可以問你關於另一個可能的會談嗎？達賴喇嘛過去說過，現在公開表明，他願意接受中國對西藏的管轄，他願意接受目前在西藏的社會製度，他所尋求的是文化的自治和一定程度上的政治的自治。
The talks apparently are stuck at a lower level between the Tibetans and the Chinese government. Why don't you, given your power and your negotiating skills, take the issue yourself, and you or President Hu Jintao were to negotiate directly with the Dalai Lama and solve this issue once and for all, for the benefit of the Chinese people and, of course, the Tibetan people who are also in China?
這個會談，顯然在藏人和中國中央政府之間較低級別的層次上卡住了，你為什麽不運用你的權力和談判技巧，由你或國家主席胡錦濤接手，與達賴喇嘛直接談判，解決西藏問題，以造福於中國人民，當然也包括在中國的西藏人民？
WEN (voice of interpreter): In many places all over the world, the Dalai Lama keeps preaching about the idea of the so-called autonomy in the greater Tibetan region. And actually, the so-called autonomy that he pursues is actually to use religion to intervene in politics. And they want to separate the so-called "greater Tibetan region" from the motherland.
溫家寶：他在世界的許多地方，大力宣揚所謂大藏區的所謂的自治，其目的實際上就是利用宗教，幹預政治，試圖使“大藏區”從中國分裂脫離出去。
And many people in the United States have no idea how big is the so-called "greater Tibetan region." The so-called "greater Tibetan region," preached by the Dalai Lama, actually covers Tibet, Sichuan, Yunnan, Qinghai and Gansu - altogether, five provinces. And the area covered by this so-called "greater Tibetan region" accounts for a quarter of China's territory.
很多美國人並不知道，“大藏區”究竟有多大？達賴喇嘛鼓吹的所謂“大藏區”，包括西藏、四川、雲南、青海和甘肅---五個省，所涉及的領土，相當於中國領土的四分之一。（我們和達賴的問題不是民族、宗教或文化問題，而是關係到維護國家統一的原則問題。我們要看到達賴的兩麵性，他一方麵是宗教領袖，在西藏具有一定的影響力，特別是在宗教方麵；另一方麵，他不是普通的宗教人物，他建立的所謂西藏流亡政府，就是要把西藏從中國分裂出去。）
For decades, our policy towards the Dalai Lama remains unchanged. That is, as long as the Dalai Lama is willing to recognize that Tibet is an inalienable part of China's territory, and as long as the Dalai Lama gives up his separatist activities, we are willing to have contact and talks with him or his representatives. Now, sincerity holds the key to producing results out of the talks.
幾十年來，我們對達賴的政策始終未變，隻要他承認西藏是中國領土不可分割的一部份，並且放棄分裂圖謀，我們就願意和他或者他的代表進行接觸、對話，商談的結果在於要有誠意。我是否與他接觸並不是問題。我們希望他用行動表明誠意，打破僵局。
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(BEGIN VIDEO)電視畫麵開始（CNN網絡版第四部分）
ZAKARIA: What action would you like to see from the Dalai Lama that would show sincerity?
紮卡裏亞：你希望看到達賴喇嘛用什麽行動來表達其誠意？
WEN (voice of interpreter): Actually, I already made it clear that, when we observe any individual, the Dalai Lama included, we should not only watch what - we should not only observe what he says, but also watch what he does.
溫家寶：實際上我已經清楚表明了。我們觀察任何人，包括達賴喇嘛，我們不隻要聽他說什麽，還要看他做什麽，必要時我們也會考慮提高對話的層次。
His sincerity can be demonstrated in giving up separatist activities. But then, everything depends on the development of the situation.
他的誠意就是能夠真正放棄分裂祖國的活動，到那個時候我們再看事態的發展。
ZAKARIA: China's premier, Wen Jiabao, is a reading man a poet, and I asked him about something he was reading.
中國的總理溫家寶，是一個喜歡讀書和作詩的人，我問他過去讀過的一些書。
ZAKARIA: You have said that you have read the works of Marcus Aurelius 100 times. Marcus Aurelius is a famous Stoic philosopher.
紮卡裏亞：你說過你曾經上百次讀過馬克・奧裏利烏斯作品，他是一個著名的哲學家。
My reading of him says that one should not be involved in the self and in any kind of pursuits that are self-interested, but should be more for the community as a whole.
從他的書裏我讀到，他說一個人不應當隻是關注自我，注重自我的利益，應當更多的考慮到社會這個整體。
When I go to China these days, I'm struck by how much individualism there is, how much consumerism there is. Are you trying to send a signal to the Chinese people to think less about themselves and more about the community?
我在中國的日子裏，看到太多的人傾向於個人主義和消費享樂主義，你是否試圖傳遞給他們一個信號，讓中國人更多的關注這個社會而不僅僅是自己？
WEN (voice of interpreter): It is true. I did read the "Meditations" written by Marcus Aurelius Antonio many occasions. And I was very deeply impressed by the words that he wrote in the book to the effect that, where are those people who were great for a time? They are all gone, living only a story, or some even just half a story. So, I draw the conclusion that only people are in the position to create history and to write history.
溫家寶：我是說過，我曾多次讀過馬克・奧裏利烏斯寫的《沉思錄》，他在書裏寫的話深深打動了我，我對其中的一句話記憶很深刻：看那些所謂赫赫一時的人物，現在都到哪裏去了？最後都煙消雲散了，留下的隻是一個故事，有的連一個故事還不是，隻是半個故事，真正創造曆史的、並且書寫曆史的，隻有人民。
I very much value morality. And I do believe that entrepreneurs, economists and statesmen alike should pay much more attention to morality and ethics.
我十分重視道德，我認為企業家、經濟學家、政治家都應該更多的關注道德和職業操守。
In my mind, the highest standard to measure the ethics and morality is justice.
在我的思想裏，衡量道德和道德規範的最高標準，就是公正。
It is true, in the course of China's economic development, some companies have actually pursued their profits at the expense of morality. And we will never allow such things to happen. We will not allow economic growth at the expense of the loss of morality, because such an approach simply cannot be sustained. That's why we advocate corporate, occupational and social ethics.
我們在經濟發展過程中，許多企業為了追逐利潤而喪失了道德，這是我所不允許的。我們決不允許喪失道德來發展經濟，因為那注定是不會持久的，因此我們提倡要有企業道德、職業道德和社會道德。
ZAKARIA: You've talked about elections many times. Do you think in 25 years there will be national elections in which there will be a competition, there will be perhaps two parties running for the positions such as your own?
紮拉裏亞：關於選舉，你以前談過多次，那麽，25年後，中國是否會通過國家選舉，讓兩個政黨來競爭像你這樣的國家領導人的席位呢？
WEN (voice of interpreter): It's hard for me to predict what will happen in 25 years' time.This being said, I have this conviction that China's democracy will continue to grow.
溫家寶： 25年以後的事情我很難預見，這個問題我開始的時候說過，但是我有一個信念，我認為中國的民主政治一定會繼續發展。
In 20 to 30 years' time, the whole Chinese society will be more democratic and fairer, and the legal system in China will further be improved. Socialism, as we see it, will further mature and improve.
再過二、三十年，中國將會更加民主，法製會更加完善，社會，會更加公正。
ZAKARIA: On that happy note, I thank you, Your Excellency. I'm sure your people are worried that we've taken a little bit extra time. And I thank you in advance for your kindness and your frankness.
紮卡裏亞：總理閣下，謝謝您，我相信您的部下已經不開心了，我們已經超出了一點點預定的訪談時間，再次謝謝你的善意和你的坦誠。
(END VIDEO視頻結束)
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