在西藏再次引起世人注目的時候,今兒發兩組照片,一組是廣為流傳的一個美國人鏡頭下的西藏。大概從本世紀九十年代起,隨著好萊塢的電影如《Seven Years In Tibet》、發現頻道(Discovery)、美國國家地理雜誌以及新聞媒體的大量介紹,西藏的神奇和美麗,被許多西方人關注;西藏特殊的地理位置以及可能隱藏的巨大的自然資源,更是讓西方大國虎視眈眈。西方社會既有對這個“世外桃源”的浪漫遐想,又有對這片神聖土地的別有用心。越來越多的西方人熱衷於西藏,到西藏旅遊或其他,從不同的視覺,解讀西藏。
阿列克2008-04-07 14:49:15回複悄悄話
想起小時候爸媽說:好吃好喝供你還天天換著法子氣我們,不聽話。我就想:一點小事就發那麽大脾氣,沒完沒了,有的時候還動粗。我寧肯換到窮人家去。其實這跟中西教育子女方式差異很象。吃飯的時候爸媽經常夾一塊肉放到我碗裏,不管我愛不愛吃,就算愛吃也不領情,外國人喜歡對孩子說would you like some...就連父母要幫孩子係鞋帶都要問can i help u另外社會福利機構應跟國外學定點每星期去領
chatter2008-04-07 10:38:28回複悄悄話
To 天佑中華_我的祖國:
Last part of your comment to Steven is regarding "love China". Steven claim that he loves China. That does not mean he cannot criticize some policy or doings of Chinese government. Those are two different things. Just like you hear a lot American don't like the government, but they are patriotic. To me even if I cast a vote to a government, I still should have a right to comment or criticize this government, even before foreigners. Let alone I was not given a right to vote.
And also using "Steven" does not mean anything. I believe over 90% of Chinese immigrants here have English name. This has nothing to do with one's believe and philosophy. Nor so whether or not one uses English or Chinese to communicate. Your implication in "I don't know you still can remember Chinese words and this is the reason I use English to communicate wih you." is groundless.
As for CCTV versus BBC or CNN, let me ask our folks this question - where did you guys get to know Abu Grade prison? Katrina mishandling? Guantanamo prison? BBC and CNN, as well as all big media. They are the first one to disclose it. Is CCTV the first one to disclose SARS? Medias there are controlled by government. What else do you expect to hear from?
As Freedom and demacracy, to me it is also obvious - I can read anything. CNN and BBC distort truth? There are tons of others available. Do they all distort truth? If someday I believe all medias here distort truth, then I'd better ask myself if my brain is distorted. Unforturenately my poor fellow Chinese do not have this luxury to read medias from outside world. They are considered as dumb and not able to distinguish right and wrong.
天佑中華_我的祖國2008-04-07 06:22:20回複悄悄話
回複stevenw9的評論:
Steven, from your Christan name, I already know something. I have been in oversea for more than ten years, I still use my Chinese name.I don't know you still can remember Chinese words and this is the reason I use English to communicate wih you.
People, especially some people already moved out of China, like to use Democracy or Freedowm these words, sounds like they don't know these words when they were in China,or they knew these words in China but were depressed too much until they are in a sign of relief when they are out of China. Then, Mr Steven, can you give me an example of how you don't have Democracy and freedom in China and how you enjoy Democracy and Freedowm in your living country? Did you ever stand in your living country's street and shouted loudly and scold the leader of the country to see how much democracy & Freedom you have compared with China?
Your questioned people on how true they have listened to real Tibetean poeple,how about you? Probably you listen to what western people say, am I right? Oh, what they say is true ! Yes, I am always searching CCTV for News, to you , that means what? Means I should stop and switch to CNN or other western media to not let my thought Brainstormed by CCTV, and get brainstormed by CNN or BBC?
I will tell my children about Tibet's History, be part of the education of Chinese History, whether Tibet belongs to Chinaor not, I will not discuss it, it is part of China's history, however, this is nothing to do with whether I support Democracy, Freedom, religious Freedom or not. These are totally two different things.
No need to ask us to wake up, if we are already outside, we have already waken up many years ago, it is not the time of waking up, it is the time to think, logically and wisely.
You claimed you love China,really? Oh, you loved a separated China. You loved a China that everything she does should get scolded by people that previously were, and even now are robbers? You loved a China that you sitting in front of your PC typing some words asking people not believe her? Come On, Steven, even if 99.9999% people believe what you said, I am the one who will say: Stopping saying you love China(Nobody will blame you if you say you don't love China), go and enjoy your Freedom and let other people have their own !!
To stevenw9: I believe Democracy is the best system in the world, but it doesn't mean it suits every country.
As you said, to free Tibet has nothing to do with most Chinese common life. Then what means a lot to them? I think a peaceful environment, earning good money and feeling secure are important. Violence are definately against those all.
If British colonists could ever have asked native Americans' opinion, we would not have to listen to a super powerful country to teach others what we should do everyday.
BTW, you are a Chinese, why don't you speak Chinese? I always feel strange and unconfortable to talk with a Chinese in English.
before I came here, I think Free Tibet is obvious, but after I've been here, I'm no longer sure if most Tibet want independent.
我隻是一個普通的華人,熱愛西藏,曾經在自己生命中最值得懷念的12年無數次的去過西藏,和西藏有過許多不解之緣。我至今都相信我在那裏所看到和聽到的是一個真實的西藏,與DLLM口中講述的有很大的出入。在很多人眼中西藏是神聖和神秘的,可能一生都沒有辦法去親自體驗。真心的希望你能從這兩個美國年輕人的口中和眼中能了解一個真實的西藏。
ellamoney2008-04-07 02:17:30回複悄悄話
回複stevenw9的評論:
你不配中國人這個稱號,你是外國人的龜孫子!Have you ever been to China and Tibet?If not do not say anything like brainwashed by Chinese government.
How shameful you are .You do not derserve 'I am a Chinese'.You probabaly wish to dye your skin and be the son of bitch of your white boss!
I lived in London for 10 years and although I agree democracy is not always bad but I still think it is better for China to be run by Communist party.It is much better and avoid backwards and forwards regarding to develop China.You can see how is Taiwan now.Imagine if China such a hugh country practice so called democracy,it would be ruined by western countries in no time. Do not be naive!
Look at what they do in Iraq .Is that what they call democracy?!
stevenw92008-04-06 01:19:07回複悄悄話
可憐的中國人, 在中國大陸有言論自由嗎?religious freedom? Not mentioned in Tibet. You are so brain-washed, even though you are out of China for so many years. Did you learn anything? Guess you still watch CCTV all day long. CNN may be not accurate. But there is thousands more TV stations.
What is freedom? What is respect for human beings? Guess you never learn anything. Not knowing what is right or wrong. Have any of you heard what Tibetan says? Until we hear what Tibetan freely express what they really feel from independent news resources, of course I will suspect they are mistreated, just like all those people inside China. What a pity, all 70 cable channels are the same from cctv at 8 pm news. They can never know anything different. They are brain-washed and blind-sided.
Whether Tibet belongs to China or not, will it affect your daily life? Probably not. But whether you support freedom of speech, respect for religious freedom, support for the weak, knowing what is right or wrong have everything to do with you!
Try to explain to your children because you believe Tibetan belongs to China, you support for the government to suppress their freedom of religion, speech, respect for human rights. You will be so shamed! Their little hearts know what is right or wrong!
Wake up Chinese, especially those out of China and now are enjoying freedom of speech. If you do not believe CNN, go to another news source. If you believe all those news resources from different countries, are the same from governments, for the same political reasons, you might as well go back to China to watch those 70 cable channels which show the same pictures.
I love China because I am a Chinese, but I love freedom more!
『”如果當時中國人團結一心協助日本人把國民黨給推翻了,我們大家不就早過上好日子了嗎?你看現在日本多好,要是那時候我們不抵抗,早就和日本合並了,我們早就成為發達國家了。“------讓我再愛你一次』
以上根據你的理論,你還要思考啥?
Last part of your comment to Steven is regarding "love China". Steven claim that he loves China. That does not mean he cannot criticize some policy or doings of Chinese government. Those are two different things. Just like you hear a lot American don't like the government, but they are patriotic. To me even if I cast a vote to a government, I still should have a right to comment or criticize this government, even before foreigners. Let alone I was not given a right to vote.
And also using "Steven" does not mean anything. I believe over 90% of Chinese immigrants here have English name. This has nothing to do with one's believe and philosophy. Nor so whether or not one uses English or Chinese to communicate. Your implication in "I don't know you still can remember Chinese words and this is the reason I use English to communicate wih you." is groundless.
As for CCTV versus BBC or CNN, let me ask our folks this question - where did you guys get to know Abu Grade prison? Katrina mishandling? Guantanamo prison? BBC and CNN, as well as all big media. They are the first one to disclose it. Is CCTV the first one to disclose SARS? Medias there are controlled by government. What else do you expect to hear from?
As Freedom and demacracy, to me it is also obvious - I can read anything. CNN and BBC distort truth? There are tons of others available. Do they all distort truth? If someday I believe all medias here distort truth, then I'd better ask myself if my brain is distorted. Unforturenately my poor fellow Chinese do not have this luxury to read medias from outside world. They are considered as dumb and not able to distinguish right and wrong.
眾所周知,藏民們普遍認為毛澤東是菩薩;而自鄧小平開始推行至今的反毛澤東否定毛澤東思想的方針政策,之於藏民是怎樣的影響呐?離心離德這個詞該怎麽解釋?
請問最後一個視頻的歌是誰唱的?應該是韓紅的天路的曲調,但不知歌者是誰,相當好聽,應該是藏族。多謝!
我雖然隻去過大西藏地區一次,包括甘南、阿壩、林芝、日喀則、拉薩等地。我的感受是在文化上漢藏沒有很好的互動,兩個民族的交流是很有限的,就連我們這種受過高等教育的人恐怕也沒有幾個人真正了解藏文化,更別說那些生活在教育尚不普及的一些大西藏地區的藏人們能對漢文化有什麽認識了!
到底什麽對西藏最好,可能還是應該多聽聽當地人的意見,不能以我們的立場和觀點來強加在當地人身上!如果說連我這個漢人在西藏看到那些援建縣城入口處聳立的漢式大牌坊都不舒服的話,那麽當地人又會怎麽想呢?
一個家庭主婦打手機給她丈夫,說是剛在電視上看到新聞,有一個瘋子正在他上下班必經的高速公路上逆向行駛,提醒他小心。他老公回答說,哪止一個,他們都在逆向行駛。
我要說的是,當你覺得有這麽多人被洗腦的時候,大概被洗腦的可能就是你自己。
我為中國祈禱。
Steven, from your Christan name, I already know something. I have been in oversea for more than ten years, I still use my Chinese name.I don't know you still can remember Chinese words and this is the reason I use English to communicate wih you.
People, especially some people already moved out of China, like to use Democracy or Freedowm these words, sounds like they don't know these words when they were in China,or they knew these words in China but were depressed too much until they are in a sign of relief when they are out of China. Then, Mr Steven, can you give me an example of how you don't have Democracy and freedom in China and how you enjoy Democracy and Freedowm in your living country? Did you ever stand in your living country's street and shouted loudly and scold the leader of the country to see how much democracy & Freedom you have compared with China?
Your questioned people on how true they have listened to real Tibetean poeple,how about you? Probably you listen to what western people say, am I right? Oh, what they say is true ! Yes, I am always searching CCTV for News, to you , that means what? Means I should stop and switch to CNN or other western media to not let my thought Brainstormed by CCTV, and get brainstormed by CNN or BBC?
I will tell my children about Tibet's History, be part of the education of Chinese History, whether Tibet belongs to Chinaor not, I will not discuss it, it is part of China's history, however, this is nothing to do with whether I support Democracy, Freedom, religious Freedom or not. These are totally two different things.
No need to ask us to wake up, if we are already outside, we have already waken up many years ago, it is not the time of waking up, it is the time to think, logically and wisely.
You claimed you love China,really? Oh, you loved a separated China. You loved a China that everything she does should get scolded by people that previously were, and even now are robbers? You loved a China that you sitting in front of your PC typing some words asking people not believe her? Come On, Steven, even if 99.9999% people believe what you said, I am the one who will say: Stopping saying you love China(Nobody will blame you if you say you don't love China), go and enjoy your Freedom and let other people have their own !!
To stevenw9: I believe Democracy is the best system in the world, but it doesn't mean it suits every country.
As you said, to free Tibet has nothing to do with most Chinese common life. Then what means a lot to them? I think a peaceful environment, earning good money and feeling secure are important. Violence are definately against those all.
If British colonists could ever have asked native Americans' opinion, we would not have to listen to a super powerful country to teach others what we should do everyday.
BTW, you are a Chinese, why don't you speak Chinese? I always feel strange and unconfortable to talk with a Chinese in English.
你沒有聽到或看到並不等於不存在。CCTV報道的你可以不相信,那建議你看看美國人拍的如何 Tibet Dairy - 西藏日記。如果你的英文好我建議你聽英文,看看那兩個美國人到底怎麽說。
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkprHNIItNU&feature=related
我印象最深的是在影片的最後JOHN said:
before I came here, I think Free Tibet is obvious, but after I've been here, I'm no longer sure if most Tibet want independent.
我隻是一個普通的華人,熱愛西藏,曾經在自己生命中最值得懷念的12年無數次的去過西藏,和西藏有過許多不解之緣。我至今都相信我在那裏所看到和聽到的是一個真實的西藏,與DLLM口中講述的有很大的出入。在很多人眼中西藏是神聖和神秘的,可能一生都沒有辦法去親自體驗。真心的希望你能從這兩個美國年輕人的口中和眼中能了解一個真實的西藏。
你英文真的需要好好練練了...看到你的英文程度,連蒼天都落淚了...
you are shit, go die
你不配中國人這個稱號,你是外國人的龜孫子!Have you ever been to China and Tibet?If not do not say anything like brainwashed by Chinese government.
How shameful you are .You do not derserve 'I am a Chinese'.You probabaly wish to dye your skin and be the son of bitch of your white boss!
I lived in London for 10 years and although I agree democracy is not always bad but I still think it is better for China to be run by Communist party.It is much better and avoid backwards and forwards regarding to develop China.You can see how is Taiwan now.Imagine if China such a hugh country practice so called democracy,it would be ruined by western countries in no time. Do not be naive!
Look at what they do in Iraq .Is that what they call democracy?!
不用去理會那些張口閉口意識形態的人,人都信自己想信的,何況這些人根本不在乎現實是什麽樣的,更不會在乎你的人權。之前吵吵嚷嚷達富爾,現在有西藏這個更好的舞台,誰tm還“關心”達富爾人民的死活
我跑了不少地方,各個教派的寺廟都去了,感覺到大家的生活是平穩的,各種宗教活動都進行著。頭兩天有一個藏族朋友陪我,給我介紹寺廟裏的特色,帶我見高僧活佛,要不然我去過了也不知道是怎麽回事。
我拍的照片更像第二組,當然水平沒他高。在中國、在美國,每個地方都可以看到髒亂差的地方,但是我不會專門去拍,因為我見到的大部分人都是過著平安的生活。
憨妹來看你了.多保重.
有空常回家看看, 父老鄉情想你呀!!!!
What is freedom? What is respect for human beings? Guess you never learn anything. Not knowing what is right or wrong. Have any of you heard what Tibetan says? Until we hear what Tibetan freely express what they really feel from independent news resources, of course I will suspect they are mistreated, just like all those people inside China. What a pity, all 70 cable channels are the same from cctv at 8 pm news. They can never know anything different. They are brain-washed and blind-sided.
Whether Tibet belongs to China or not, will it affect your daily life? Probably not. But whether you support freedom of speech, respect for religious freedom, support for the weak, knowing what is right or wrong have everything to do with you!
Try to explain to your children because you believe Tibetan belongs to China, you support for the government to suppress their freedom of religion, speech, respect for human rights. You will be so shamed! Their little hearts know what is right or wrong!
Wake up Chinese, especially those out of China and now are enjoying freedom of speech. If you do not believe CNN, go to another news source. If you believe all those news resources from different countries, are the same from governments, for the same political reasons, you might as well go back to China to watch those 70 cable channels which show the same pictures.
I love China because I am a Chinese, but I love freedom more!
從中國攝影師的照片,我看到了,西藏雖然在物質財富上比不上很多發達的城市,但是人民的生活仍然非常得快樂和充實,從一張張笑臉,我們看到了對現在的滿足和對未來的追求。
從美國攝影師的照片,我看到了,在所謂的“聖地”西藏,人民的生活是多麽的貧窮和清苦。到處充斥著肮髒和醜陋。
看完中國攝影師的照片,我想有時間的話,我想到西藏去走一走。
看完美國攝影師的照片,我想除非實在是沒有地方去了,否則我不會去西藏玩。
盡管我非常同意你的幾張圖片說明不了問題,但是往往西方媒體總是拿幾張圖片來說明問題!比如這次西藏的報道,我不列舉了吧:)還有今天許多人還在用N多年前拍電影的武警手拿僧侶服的照片上做文章,那又是什麽用心呢?他們不知道西藏問題是個嚴肅的問題?他們不知道一張照片不能說明什麽問題?他們是不是都預設了政治立場了呢?又是誰不僅把西藏問題庸俗化,又試圖把西藏問題國際化了呢?
相信大都數人都會理性的看待西藏問題,包括理性的看待這兩組圖片,從泉水等評論裏可以看出來。謝謝你的評論,謝謝你的關注。也一並謝謝泉水等朋友,謝謝!
我從來都不懷疑有些人(東西方都有)在西藏問題上攪渾水,但僅僅根據幾張照片去斷定一個人的政治目的,實在是有泛政治化的感覺。其實,你在指責別人的照片有“政治預設”時,你自己也犯了同樣的錯誤:“獵奇的,看到的是落後和迷信;崇敬的,看到的是純淨和神奇。異心的,看到的是陰暗和弊端;摯愛的,看到的是快樂和希望”。西藏問題是一個嚴肅的課題,希望大家能以理性客觀冷靜的態度來對待,而不要把它庸俗化。
謝謝你對西藏問題的關注。
你說“姓美隻展現生活多麵體”就有點“逢中必反、逢美比讚”的嫌疑了:)如果較真兒的話(本來沒這樣想),姓美的這組圖片(隻有一張太血腥我沒有貼),“展現生活的多麵體”裏,沒有寺廟,沒有誦經,隻有美容美發,喇嘛經商,貧窮落後,崇拜馬列,,,。
姓中的沒有不承認姓美的眼中看到的是事實,“真實圖片”,但是為姓美的“展現生活多麵體”作了些補充,或許兩組圖片加在一起,更能“展現生活多麵體”。網友“泉水”和“看藍色的海”說的有一定的道理。
之於說到貧富懸殊社會矛盾,這是個不爭的事實,我曾在以往的帖子多次提到,某種程度上政府都承認。但是解決這些矛盾需要智慧,需要改革,需要過程,當然越快越好。但靠暴力和動亂來解決,顯然是不明智的。西方發達國家在工業革命初期直到前幾十年,還不是一樣?就是現在的許多民主的發展中國家,貧富懸殊社會矛盾激化,也一樣存在!
之於說到“洪水”,如果當年沒有姓美的哥兒們策反,如果今天沒有姓美的老太太站在“道德的製高點”興風作浪,怕是受到傷害的不會是這麽多老百姓。謝謝你的關注:)
一並謝謝所有的評論,謝謝所有的來客,謝謝你們的關注。祝福西藏,祝福祖國!
兩組圖片都很好。中國人的稍微為美了一點,可能是攝影愛好者的原因。但美國人的很明顯隻用他的眼睛寫實。
謝好貼。