Many people, including myself, still think classic/old Chinese is more 精簡 than what we are using today .... maybe that's why in wx000's version, there is a flavor of that .... however, in poetry, we cannot use classic Chinese without being tongue-in-cheek....
"但我知道OCTAVES在這裏不是副詞，不足以修飾DANCING。。。"
You are right .... it is a noun here ....
My point is not to get hung on one or two lines .... my omnium-gatherum was to show the good choices in all three versions....my personal taste only....
Looking at the three versions together, we see the difference between wx000's and yy and zf's.....actually, in the original, "childhood" does not modify "octaves"....so, wx000's choice is more correct semantically....he also turned "limbs" into "羽翼," which i think it's awesome!
Language wise, wx000 chose to use more "poetic" words throughout the whole poem, i.e. "永恒之川".... everybody seems to like the "之"....why??
Do you still say this word at home with your parents, brothers and sisters??
Then, why do you think this is a good choice??
Either writing or translating a poem, you need to look at the poem as a whole!!
For an imperfect poem like this, the key is the consistency and the musicality!
地中海人魚2006-04-14 06:26:14回複悄悄話
I am always too late...
the most creative translation is :
永恒之川
帶走我的
哀傷.......................terrific!
and to be very honest, the worst one is:
稚嫩的羽翼
隨音樂
曼舞.......................simpler would be better
wx0002006-04-13 22:27:04回複悄悄話
You all have very good and valuable points in this discussion. There should be a better translation and it also would be helpful if Mr. z.z can give some “hint” about the meaning of the poem you originally wanted to convey.
I understand yy’s feeling about “dancing on my soft limb”. I was puzzled by this line (when picking Chinese words) and just decided to go on my own. Most likely the translation has drifted away from the original meaning of this part of poem.
I appreciate your enthusiasm toward the art of poetry. I just want to be a good reader who can enjoy the beauty of poetry.
Thank You and Best Regards!
作舟詩集2006-04-13 20:05:40回複悄悄話
no one can touch your feelings, i am sure.... :)
no, i don't think you are "against" anything ....
maybe you can come up with better translation.....
cheers!!
y.y.2006-04-13 20:00:14回複悄悄話
okay. Applause . . . but i have to say, i am not against him from the beginning of the discussion . . .
i still keep my feeling for " dancing on my soft limb" for myself . . . i cherish the sensibility in it . . . something can not be comprimised
:)
z.z.2006-04-13 19:49:07回複悄悄話
part of the poem was to experiement with the "new age" words ...
so, we should give wx000 credit for being creative... :)
y.y.2006-04-13 19:44:57回複悄悄話
"morph," "octave" and "resurrection" . . .
yes! i looked up in the dictionary and tried to find something fits, but in vain . . .
octave . . . indeed when i saw this word, i thought of an old man who played an Octave bell [a very old musical instrument] one day . . .
z.z.2006-04-13 18:20:47回複悄悄話
wow, such high spirited discussion!!!
i seem to have followed everyone's ideas until later.....you all have touched on something interesting, that is because Poetry is interesting....it is not like discussing Math or Chemistry....:)
no one needs to be apologitic because we are talking about art/poetry, not gossiping .... however, such discussion helps me to know you [words reveal our personalities]....i do want to know all of you .... :)
Mr. wx000 has told us that he is not a "poet"....very smart :) but he surprised us by giving a good rendition of the poem.....
the words he chose in his version is more "poetic," as far as Chinese goes, than y.y. and z.f.'s....usually, i don't like the "poetic Chinese" because they don't work for me anymore.....but in wx000's version, it seems to work....
as you have noticed, "morph," "octave" and "resurrection" are more problematic than "soft limbs" when translated....no one has found a "perfect" match for "octave," for example.....
in translation, it's called "compensating" when the translator does not know the exact equivalents.....wx000 did not choose to do a literal translation [it is obvious that he thought hard about it].....
from your feedback, i come to appreciate more and more all friends' artistic sensibility and knowledge......
the more i write poems, the less i feel i know about "poetry"....
:)
y.y.2006-04-13 17:47:08回複悄悄話 that's joking, can't you see? :)
good to see you laugh :)
i don't want you to take my words personal.
"You" also includes me when i say "Can you see your hip sing? "
:)
z.f.2006-04-13 17:30:04回複悄悄話
we learn from each other . . .!!!!!!
share and enjoy . . .!!!!!!
no “紅纓槍”:))))))
y.y.2006-04-13 16:50:28回複悄悄話
we learn from each other . . . which can indrease the depth of our life . . . because we cannot experience what all other can experience. . . .
if "稚嫩的羽翼" can that easily torn away, then we'd better read more poems . . .
just kidding :)
y.y.2006-04-13 16:44:00回複悄悄話
criticism is Passion and Fire too !!!
if you look into the history of modern poetry/art . . . poets, critics, artists have formed into group to share their minds and inspired each other . . . and brought out the golden age of poetry and art . . . great poets can be great critics too . . . can not name all of them . . .
as i said before, share and enjoy . . .
:)
z.f.2006-04-13 16:32:18回複悄悄話
What I see
might be Invisible
to you though
our Hearts are made
of the same texts
如果你說的那些我沒有看到，我想我寫不出：
“英文注重用生命的本質追尋人之本性(NATURE)。。。
永恒之川，詩歌也。。。帶走我的/哀傷。。。”
這樣的簡單裏包含的我的思考。。。
永恒之川，詩歌也，愛，詩歌也。。。
而其實什麽又是什麽？only to grow。。。
我“閉嘴”爭論。。。因為沒有人能說服誰，更何況我們在為概念“詩意”各說各的。。。據我所知，我們好像是從“詩意”說起的吧，從the sense of language說起的吧? 。。。最終我們各說各的。。。:)))
我在這裏所說的是我個人的感受，隻是感受，非“JOB”。。。謝謝你們！！！
我從不相信“群眾的眼睛是雪亮的”。。。:))
對了，我剛看到你的“紅纓槍”:)))
最後我想說的是，對詩歌也罷，寫作也罷，或是其他讀者的翻譯也罷 "Honest criticism means nothing: what one wants is unrestrained passion, fire for fire."
i have to say this is a word game :) same word in different places does not have same meaning . . .
i am talking about the Language itself . . . which has nothing to do with philosophy . . . when philosophy becomes the focus for a poem, the poem will become proverb . . . for example, Taoism is not poetry, though a poem can express that . . .
:)
z.f.2006-04-13 13:50:26回複悄悄話
first language vs. foreign language
我的體會是每次我翻譯完，都覺得沒有表達我對英文的本來感覺和理解。。。it is the sense of language。。。
wx000的翻譯給我帶來我對中文的領會。。。感覺wx000是在用心讀詩，並用"地道的"中文來表達，很佩服。。。作舟將中文的語言和情感進一步發揮，給人a "new feeling"。。。
但我個人的看法是，作舟的詩歌創作裏，變幻轉化，沒有主“義”是我比較欣賞的，什麽能永恒？人之生命短暫，稍縱即逝，什麽是什麽？永恒之川，詩歌也。。。帶走我的/哀傷。。。
“R U a prisoner of TIME??”。。。我以為沒有限製，能隨心所欲自如“創造”又能給現代人帶來“美”的感受的最現代。。。藝術就是要打破看不見的各種束縛！
y.y.2006-04-13 12:29:21回複悄悄話
Not only about the sense of language. Though the translation for a poem does not always capture what’s in the original one, we can still feel how close they are because words can “conjure” up what’s hidden in them. It also depends on how a translator reads and understands the poem, and the poet. For example, among all the English translations for Octavio Paz’poems, I love Eliot Weinberger’s most, who has devoted almost his life to his works. He can capture the “coolness”, “darkness”, and “heaviness” in a very clean and simple language, and render them in a way that I feel Paz wrote them though I’ve never read the Spanish versions. Reading Paz’s other writings, background, and conversations has convinced me that his rendering is like mirroring.
Of course, here I am not talking about who is the best - - - we all Enjoy writing and translating and sharing our minds here - - - but that understanding a poem may help a translator smooth his/her translation.
Indeed I also thought about Poetic Language and what makes language poetic? Sometimes archaic languages bury the beauty of modern poetry because they already have their own “framed” meanings. A little bit awkward when it tries to wrap a great Modern spirit : ) And, also a sacrifice . . . I guess, my perception of “Modern” is forcing me to speak out . . .: )
Resurrection for language: )
That’s how I feel. Sharing is not for fighting : )
Enjoy : )
z.f.2006-04-12 23:25:00回複悄悄話
Moon River, wider than a mile,
I'm crossing you in style some day.
Oh, dream maker, you heart breaker,
wherever you're going I'm going your way.
Two drifters off to see the world.
There's such a lot of world to see.
We're after the same rainbow's end--
waiting 'round the bend,
my huckleberry friend,
Moon River and me.
sd, don't make me cry again...I was soooo young when my tears dropped for this song...
"Oh, dream maker, you heart breaker..."
I am reading poetry because I think a poem is not a dream...and a poet is not a dream maker...
淚珠晶瑩 for a poem...
by水滴2006-04-12 23:05:32回複悄悄話
"Moon river" By Andy Williams
One of my favorate American folk song. :)
by水滴2006-04-12 22:52:25回複悄悄話
I like this version very much! strikely beautiful! Thanks!
盡管一首詩歌是整體效果，但總有幾句會帶來特別的感受吧。有時一首詩歌裏令
人難忘的或許隻有一句。
okay, time to get out of this one : )
之 與川： 很精簡，所以有力度！川 裏還有“敬”之心。
Many people, including myself, still think classic/old Chinese is more 精簡 than what we are using today .... maybe that's why in wx000's version, there is a flavor of that .... however, in poetry, we cannot use classic Chinese without being tongue-in-cheek....
"但我知道OCTAVES在這裏不是副詞，不足以修飾DANCING。。。"
You are right .... it is a noun here ....
My point is not to get hung on one or two lines .... my omnium-gatherum was to show the good choices in all three versions....my personal taste only....
:)
cheers!
我想說的，也已經說了很多；對於語言的偏好，以及與讀詩的感受不一樣，翻出來
就不一樣了。
選擇肢體，除了因為接近語言本身，而且它具有質感[FLESH]，我想抓住的是身體上
感覺複蘇時的感覺。。。給予了MEMORY來臨時的動感。。。而且它表達出某種很暗
色的有些類似憂傷的感覺。。。OCTAVE可以有HIDDEN的意思，所以選擇了無聲的。
這裏麵對我而言，是一種視覺與心靈的震撼。和我最初讀到HIDING PLACE時有很類
似的感覺。。。我之所以沒有選擇音樂，和自己的審美觀有關。。在一種無聲裏的，
但我知道OCTAVES在這裏不是副詞，不足以修飾DANCING。。。
但必須承認WX000的整首翻譯是很完整很美與飄逸的，也很準確。隻能說，有些自己
感受到的沒有在裏麵而已。。。
如童年
在我柔軟的
肢體上
無聲地
舞
ZF:
像孩提的
音樂舞在
我柔軟的
肢體
wx000:
稚嫩的羽翼
隨音樂
曼舞
Looking at the three versions together, we see the difference between wx000's and yy and zf's.....actually, in the original, "childhood" does not modify "octaves"....so, wx000's choice is more correct semantically....he also turned "limbs" into "羽翼," which i think it's awesome!
Language wise, wx000 chose to use more "poetic" words throughout the whole poem, i.e. "永恒之川".... everybody seems to like the "之"....why??
Do you still say this word at home with your parents, brothers and sisters??
Then, why do you think this is a good choice??
Either writing or translating a poem, you need to look at the poem as a whole!!
For an imperfect poem like this, the key is the consistency and the musicality!
the most creative translation is :
永恒之川
帶走我的
哀傷.......................terrific!
and to be very honest, the worst one is:
稚嫩的羽翼
隨音樂
曼舞.......................simpler would be better
I understand yy’s feeling about “dancing on my soft limb”. I was puzzled by this line (when picking Chinese words) and just decided to go on my own. Most likely the translation has drifted away from the original meaning of this part of poem.
I appreciate your enthusiasm toward the art of poetry. I just want to be a good reader who can enjoy the beauty of poetry.
Thank You and Best Regards!
no, i don't think you are "against" anything ....
maybe you can come up with better translation.....
cheers!!
i still keep my feeling for " dancing on my soft limb" for myself . . . i cherish the sensibility in it . . . something can not be comprimised
:)
so, we should give wx000 credit for being creative... :)
yes! i looked up in the dictionary and tried to find something fits, but in vain . . .
octave . . . indeed when i saw this word, i thought of an old man who played an Octave bell [a very old musical instrument] one day . . .
i seem to have followed everyone's ideas until later.....you all have touched on something interesting, that is because Poetry is interesting....it is not like discussing Math or Chemistry....:)
no one needs to be apologitic because we are talking about art/poetry, not gossiping .... however, such discussion helps me to know you [words reveal our personalities]....i do want to know all of you .... :)
Mr. wx000 has told us that he is not a "poet"....very smart :) but he surprised us by giving a good rendition of the poem.....
the words he chose in his version is more "poetic," as far as Chinese goes, than y.y. and z.f.'s....usually, i don't like the "poetic Chinese" because they don't work for me anymore.....but in wx000's version, it seems to work....
as you have noticed, "morph," "octave" and "resurrection" are more problematic than "soft limbs" when translated....no one has found a "perfect" match for "octave," for example.....
in translation, it's called "compensating" when the translator does not know the exact equivalents.....wx000 did not choose to do a literal translation [it is obvious that he thought hard about it].....
from your feedback, i come to appreciate more and more all friends' artistic sensibility and knowledge......
the more i write poems, the less i feel i know about "poetry"....
:)
that's joking, can't you see? :)
good to see you laugh :)
i don't want you to take my words personal.
"You" also includes me when i say "Can you see your hip sing? "
:)
share and enjoy . . .!!!!!!
no “紅纓槍”:))))))
if "稚嫩的羽翼" can that easily torn away, then we'd better read more poems . . .
just kidding :)
if you look into the history of modern poetry/art . . . poets, critics, artists have formed into group to share their minds and inspired each other . . . and brought out the golden age of poetry and art . . . great poets can be great critics too . . . can not name all of them . . .
as i said before, share and enjoy . . .
:)
might be Invisible
to you though
our Hearts are made
of the same texts
如果你說的那些我沒有看到，我想我寫不出：
“英文注重用生命的本質追尋人之本性(NATURE)。。。
永恒之川，詩歌也。。。帶走我的/哀傷。。。”
這樣的簡單裏包含的我的思考。。。
永恒之川，詩歌也，愛，詩歌也。。。
而其實什麽又是什麽？only to grow。。。
我“閉嘴”爭論。。。因為沒有人能說服誰，更何況我們在為概念“詩意”各說各的。。。據我所知，我們好像是從“詩意”說起的吧，從the sense of language說起的吧? 。。。最終我們各說各的。。。:)))
我在這裏所說的是我個人的感受，隻是感受，非“JOB”。。。謝謝你們！！！
我從不相信“群眾的眼睛是雪亮的”。。。:))
對了，我剛看到你的“紅纓槍”:)))
最後我想說的是，對詩歌也罷，寫作也罷，或是其他讀者的翻譯也罷 "Honest criticism means nothing: what one wants is unrestrained passion, fire for fire."
我們在這裏把問題討論得再清楚（更何況不可能清楚:），不如給詩人們一點寫詩的靈感或創作的衝動更有意思。。。給讀者更多的參與進來的激情來翻譯來分享來表現他們潛在的才華來愛詩歌更有意思。。。我本以為我可以做一個更高級一點的讀者。。。:)) （我“稚嫩的羽翼”似乎又被打倒了:)))
我說過我隻是一個讀者，即使這個世界上沒有一個人同意我說的，“雖千萬人，吾往矣！”
"完全同意 yy， 我的灌水翻譯就是為了拋磚引玉， 促進討論。 "
you makes me laugh heartily :) Not feeling guilty . . . thanks, friend . . .you did a great "job" !
having fun!!!
“人的起舞”
...羽翼...曼舞 (非“人”非“常”也)
Can you see your hip sing?
Can you see a fish tell the secret of love?
Can you see a flower think?
. . .
Then can you see Childhood dance?
The sensation of awareness and the subtlety of feelings are weakened when "Wings" are used here . . .
But we do see you, him, her, me, it, us . . . dance . . .with our naked eyes. Here is more what we feel in our inner eyes . . . of heart.
And can't you feel some beauty of poetry is gone soundlessly?
: )
not necessary :) here is a place to share :)
得，說了半天，多是廢話傻話稚嫩的話，我閉嘴:)))
"modern" in itself already means breaking rules, that's why old clothes are hard for it put on
:)
i have to say this is a word game :) same word in different places does not have same meaning . . .
i am talking about the Language itself . . . which has nothing to do with philosophy . . . when philosophy becomes the focus for a poem, the poem will become proverb . . . for example, Taoism is not poetry, though a poem can express that . . .
:)
我的體會是每次我翻譯完，都覺得沒有表達我對英文的本來感覺和理解。。。it is the sense of language。。。
wx000的翻譯給我帶來我對中文的領會。。。感覺wx000是在用心讀詩，並用"地道的"中文來表達，很佩服。。。作舟將中文的語言和情感進一步發揮，給人a "new feeling"。。。
YY：“是人的起舞” 。。。
...羽翼...曼舞 (非“人”非“常”也)
我喜歡這句裏用的"稚嫩的羽翼" （無限底蘊...）..YY說得沒錯，確實有些空，但因為“稚嫩”一詞而不泛，是像空氣一樣的空。。。詩歌不是空氣嗎？
一條河/如童年/流過我的心...中文裏的這條河...流過我的"心"
心
與
(逝去的已複活)
此刻
:
你是我的
全部
這樣的感情很搭配，永恒之川。。。帶走我的哀傷。。。
我的感覺這首詩歌的中文和英文讀來是完全不一樣的感覺，各有POETIC的美之所在，奇妙之美，奇異之美。。。其實從這裏我們可以看出中文與英文世界的不同，中文因文化的壓抑隻能用羽翼來追求人之本性（NATURE）。。。而英文更注重生命的本質追尋人之本性(NATURE)。。。無論哪一種語言我以為都是尋求一個“性”（NATURE）字。。。但是各自不同的“詩意”的美我以為很可以觀其文化差異。。。對於“詩意”我至今不是很理解這個專業名詞，我常從詩歌給我的直覺來感覺是否有詩意。。。我感覺這首詩的英文詩很詩意，中文詩也很詩意。。。詩意到底來自何處？？？
我非常欣賞YY對詩歌的態度。。。
但我個人的看法是，作舟的詩歌創作裏，變幻轉化，沒有主“義”是我比較欣賞的，什麽能永恒？人之生命短暫，稍縱即逝，什麽是什麽？永恒之川，詩歌也。。。帶走我的/哀傷。。。
“R U a prisoner of TIME??”。。。我以為沒有限製，能隨心所欲自如“創造”又能給現代人帶來“美”的感受的最現代。。。藝術就是要打破看不見的各種束縛！
Of course, here I am not talking about who is the best - - - we all Enjoy writing and translating and sharing our minds here - - - but that understanding a poem may help a translator smooth his/her translation.
Indeed I also thought about Poetic Language and what makes language poetic? Sometimes archaic languages bury the beauty of modern poetry because they already have their own “framed” meanings. A little bit awkward when it tries to wrap a great Modern spirit : ) And, also a sacrifice . . . I guess, my perception of “Modern” is forcing me to speak out . . .: )
Resurrection for language: )
That’s how I feel. Sharing is not for fighting : )
Enjoy : )
這是一次歡樂的聚會。
細細琢磨，我還是喜歡wx000, yy
and zf. 各自的不同所譯，如果各取其一成為一首，難免顧此失彼。
這種揚棄可能會影響了他們之間不同理解的聯係。
由於我的英文水準差，也就沒有機會去體味譯製作舟詩的過程帶給你們的快樂和激情。
以前我向yy也請教過類似的問題。
作為旁聽者，有時我能感到在歡樂聚會時不同理解帶給我的審美衝動。
因此，我更喜歡前者。
it brings back memory too.....forget how long ago i heard it on a cassette tape....high school, maybe?
:)
yy,
you seem to point out the discrepency between an original poem and its translation.....
i think it is the sense of language [discussed downstairs]....
first language vs. foreign language
maybe that is why the poem didn't come to me in Chinese.....
one thing that helps me write poems is to remember that whether the language we use in poems is the language we can use in daily life.....
in English, the words i use in poems i also use them outside the poems....
cheers to you all!!
這首翻譯，如果當作一首借原詩的意的再創，無可挑剔。但如果和原詩來比較，它
少了些許詩意，盡管用詞很美，尤其在這一句上：
“稚嫩的羽翼
隨音樂
曼舞”
這句很美，但多來自詞語本身，而不是詞語底下展現或蘊含的POETIC的美，因為它
屬於“常見”的現象，是人的起舞，有些空泛。
like childhood
Octaves dancing
on my soft
limbs
在原詩裏，童年被擬人化了，具有血肉；它在一個或許臥躺的人的四肢上的起舞，
有種奇異的美，令人感覺到它輕微的腳步在喚醒每一個沉睡的感受：回憶和生命的
複蘇。與後來的“複活” 有著遙相呼應。
但我喜歡翻譯裏“永恒之川”，大氣！
I'm crossing you in style some day.
Oh, dream maker, you heart breaker,
wherever you're going I'm going your way.
Two drifters off to see the world.
There's such a lot of world to see.
We're after the same rainbow's end--
waiting 'round the bend,
my huckleberry friend,
Moon River and me.
sd, don't make me cry again...I was soooo young when my tears dropped for this song...
"Oh, dream maker, you heart breaker..."
I am reading poetry because I think a poem is not a dream...and a poet is not a dream maker...
淚珠晶瑩 for a poem...
One of my favorate American folk song. :)
i think i know what you mean.....but i do like you guys' translations ...
wx000,
i like the way you read a poem...!!!
the mood is changed .... especially in a poem, a single word has its place and meaning ...
i put 哀傷 at the end to emphasize "what has been taken away"...
but the English version, ending with "away," seems to have ensured that "my sorrow has been taken away"...the result, i mean.....
there is also the "sound effect" in both languages that influence the reader's mood.....
that's how i see it.....
thanx!
Cheers!
you guys are all
very creative!!
cheers!