正文
Weimar Republic/Hitler/WWII
there were several elections...
送交者: gd2 2005年6月08日21:50:34 於 [兒童成長]http://www.bbsland.com
回 答: not the first 由 c1a2n3a 於 2005年6月08日19:28:16:
...between 1919 and 1932. Even in the famous Nov. 1932 election, German people only gave
33 percent of their votes to the Nazi.
Therefore, it is not convincing to conclude that the Nazi's rise to power was because Germen
were not suffiently prepared for democratic elections.
Nor I would agree to the conclusion that Germen had had insufficient experience with a
democratic goverment before Hitler. In fact, Germen's so-called "Golden Era(1923-1929)" was
under a democratic government, not controled by the military power.
The most important thing you forgot to mention that led Hitler to his absolute power with only 33 percent of votes
was the Great Depression which hit Germany in 1929. How did Hitler take great advatages of
people in economic panic(including matured politicians and even the GCP) is a very good
example for why a democratic republic can fail due to its ecn problems.
In summary, Hitler's rise to power is due to the ecn problem of an already established
democratic republic---not a result of an immuture replacement of a tyranny by a democratic
election.
If you think and understand the above, I believe you can see the problems in your P-3 on
your own.
I do agree with you that China is not ready as a true democratic republic--not even today.
However, that doesn't mean:
1. the ccp gov is not a tyranny; or
2. the students deserved the massacre; or
3. there is no need to prepare for democracy, such as the education of people.
IMHO, the coming Great Depression II may very well trig the likely transfer of China
from Tyranny to Chaos and then to Democracy; while the US is going from D to T then C.
Pls note the above doesn't imply that the transfer can't be trigged by other things.
Now, do I need to explain that a GDP growth can happen under T?
Thank you for sharing your thoughts(otherwise I may not even know their existence).
Good night.
送交者: gd2 2005年6月09日12:32:36 於 [兒童成長]http://www.bbsland.com
I appreciate your efforts to think further. Specifically:
1. I agree that a German king would not hand his power to Hitler. What you forgot is that after
Germany lost WWI in 1918, it was the king(military) that was giving up its power, knowing that
it would be impossible to govern Germany any longer. You seem to blaim the establishment of the
Weinar Rep at that time for Hitler's LATER rise to power, which is, may I say, unreasonable and
out of logic.
2. My use of the German Golden Era(1923-1929) in my last post was only to illustate one point:
Germen had had EXPIERENCE with a democratic gov. How come it ended so abruptly, or how good that
gov really was, is a separate issue which I can discuss with you if you are interested.
3. You made three claims here, each of which I have some reservation for. At this point, I just want to
briefly say that your blaiming WWII on the German's democracy pre-Hilter is unjustified.
On your ending claim, pls note:
E1. None of the three states(democracy, chaos, and tyranny) is perfect; and
E2. All of them have ecn problems that can lead to their death.
Now, if you want to reject all of the three, the only choices are to move back to a cave and re-live
the Stone Age, or move to the Moon. :-)
In general,I think you have the following key largely missing in your thinking:
the impact of the Great Depression on Hitler's rise to power and the start of WWII.
Happy thinking!
PS. Just a couple of yrs ago, I got into a big fight over these "old" issues with my son and his GF,
which they told me later that they needed the "practice" for their debate in the AP History class.
Was I used or what? :-)
Japan didn't have a Hitler, but did Japan kill fewer...
送交者: gd2 2005年6月09日20:07:37 於 [兒童成長]http://www.bbsland.com
回 答: 關鍵點：大蕭條發生在整個西方世界，為什麽隻有德國出了個 由 c1a2n3a 於 2005年6月09日14:53:04:
...people in WWII? So what's so special about Hitler? :-)
I was just kidding. Hitler is special in the study of the political-economic conditions
under which such an evil person, or someone even worse, can gain the absolute power and
lead a country into a total disaster. This study carries an urgency in the US today, as
even the most naiive young moms get a little upset by King George Jr. and the rapid
degradation of the US democracy(can I add its financial positions too?).
To answer your original question, you need to understand another important
ecn event, unique to Germany, in the early days of the Weimar Republic: the record breaking
inflation(in a mere 2+yrs its currency was inflated 4,000,000,000,000 times). It was a
total disaster to working class, middle class, and some upper class(think someone with
$100M in US today sees his money not even worth a penny in 2+yrs).
Since I am a believer of "Give a man a fish, you feed him a day. Teach a man how to fish, you
feed him lifetime", I will stop here and wait to see what will come out of your study
of the Weimar Inflation. Or, since your post seems to indicate you have already known the answer
to your own question, would you pls share yours with me first?
Add for 1...if the king knew what Hitler would...
送交者: gd2 2005年6月09日13:18:53 於 [兒童成長]http://www.bbsland.com
回 答: To c1a2n3a Re: Weimar Republic/Hitler/WWII 由 gd2 於 2005年6月09日12:32:36:
...lead Germany into.
Also, for the GD impact, consider the following vote change:
1928(before GD): the German Worker's Party(later remaned as NAZI) got only 3+percent;
1932(during GD): 37 percent(July) and 33(Nov.)---still far below what was needed to control
the German Congress. But a big jump from 1928.
there were several elections...
送交者: gd2 2005年6月08日21:50:34 於 [兒童成長]http://www.bbsland.com
回 答: not the first 由 c1a2n3a 於 2005年6月08日19:28:16:
...between 1919 and 1932. Even in the famous Nov. 1932 election, German people only gave
33 percent of their votes to the Nazi.
Therefore, it is not convincing to conclude that the Nazi's rise to power was because Germen
were not suffiently prepared for democratic elections.
Nor I would agree to the conclusion that Germen had had insufficient experience with a
democratic goverment before Hitler. In fact, Germen's so-called "Golden Era(1923-1929)" was
under a democratic government, not controled by the military power.
The most important thing you forgot to mention that led Hitler to his absolute power with only 33 percent of votes
was the Great Depression which hit Germany in 1929. How did Hitler take great advatages of
people in economic panic(including matured politicians and even the GCP) is a very good
example for why a democratic republic can fail due to its ecn problems.
In summary, Hitler's rise to power is due to the ecn problem of an already established
democratic republic---not a result of an immuture replacement of a tyranny by a democratic
election.
If you think and understand the above, I believe you can see the problems in your P-3 on
your own.
I do agree with you that China is not ready as a true democratic republic--not even today.
However, that doesn't mean:
1. the ccp gov is not a tyranny; or
2. the students deserved the massacre; or
3. there is no need to prepare for democracy, such as the education of people.
IMHO, the coming Great Depression II may very well trig the likely transfer of China
from Tyranny to Chaos and then to Democracy; while the US is going from D to T then C.
Pls note the above doesn't imply that the transfer can't be trigged by other things.
Now, do I need to explain that a GDP growth can happen under T?
Thank you for sharing your thoughts(otherwise I may not even know their existence).
Good night.
送交者: gd2 2005年6月09日12:32:36 於 [兒童成長]http://www.bbsland.com
I appreciate your efforts to think further. Specifically:
1. I agree that a German king would not hand his power to Hitler. What you forgot is that after
Germany lost WWI in 1918, it was the king(military) that was giving up its power, knowing that
it would be impossible to govern Germany any longer. You seem to blaim the establishment of the
Weinar Rep at that time for Hitler's LATER rise to power, which is, may I say, unreasonable and
out of logic.
2. My use of the German Golden Era(1923-1929) in my last post was only to illustate one point:
Germen had had EXPIERENCE with a democratic gov. How come it ended so abruptly, or how good that
gov really was, is a separate issue which I can discuss with you if you are interested.
3. You made three claims here, each of which I have some reservation for. At this point, I just want to
briefly say that your blaiming WWII on the German's democracy pre-Hilter is unjustified.
On your ending claim, pls note:
E1. None of the three states(democracy, chaos, and tyranny) is perfect; and
E2. All of them have ecn problems that can lead to their death.
Now, if you want to reject all of the three, the only choices are to move back to a cave and re-live
the Stone Age, or move to the Moon. :-)
In general,I think you have the following key largely missing in your thinking:
the impact of the Great Depression on Hitler's rise to power and the start of WWII.
Happy thinking!
PS. Just a couple of yrs ago, I got into a big fight over these "old" issues with my son and his GF,
which they told me later that they needed the "practice" for their debate in the AP History class.
Was I used or what? :-)
Japan didn't have a Hitler, but did Japan kill fewer...
送交者: gd2 2005年6月09日20:07:37 於 [兒童成長]http://www.bbsland.com
回 答: 關鍵點：大蕭條發生在整個西方世界，為什麽隻有德國出了個 由 c1a2n3a 於 2005年6月09日14:53:04:
...people in WWII? So what's so special about Hitler? :-)
I was just kidding. Hitler is special in the study of the political-economic conditions
under which such an evil person, or someone even worse, can gain the absolute power and
lead a country into a total disaster. This study carries an urgency in the US today, as
even the most naiive young moms get a little upset by King George Jr. and the rapid
degradation of the US democracy(can I add its financial positions too?).
To answer your original question, you need to understand another important
ecn event, unique to Germany, in the early days of the Weimar Republic: the record breaking
inflation(in a mere 2+yrs its currency was inflated 4,000,000,000,000 times). It was a
total disaster to working class, middle class, and some upper class(think someone with
$100M in US today sees his money not even worth a penny in 2+yrs).
Since I am a believer of "Give a man a fish, you feed him a day. Teach a man how to fish, you
feed him lifetime", I will stop here and wait to see what will come out of your study
of the Weimar Inflation. Or, since your post seems to indicate you have already known the answer
to your own question, would you pls share yours with me first?
Add for 1...if the king knew what Hitler would...
送交者: gd2 2005年6月09日13:18:53 於 [兒童成長]http://www.bbsland.com
回 答: To c1a2n3a Re: Weimar Republic/Hitler/WWII 由 gd2 於 2005年6月09日12:32:36:
...lead Germany into.
Also, for the GD impact, consider the following vote change:
1928(before GD): the German Worker's Party(later remaned as NAZI) got only 3+percent;
1932(during GD): 37 percent(July) and 33(Nov.)---still far below what was needed to control
the German Congress. But a big jump from 1928.
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