馬克·海曼博士：此外，拜倫·凱蒂還有一個名為《拜倫·凱蒂播客》的精彩播客。因此，無論您在哪裏收聽播客，都可以找到它。您可以在 podcasts.thework.com 上了解更多信息。
馬克·海曼博士：我很高興您出生了，很高興您經曆了痛苦，找到了擺脫痛苦的方法，幾十年來一直在向數百萬人傳授這一點。這太重要了。說實話，我以為您隻有 60 歲。我甚至看不出您已經 78 歲了。您是如此充滿活力、生機勃勃、頭腦清醒。我感覺哇，我想要一些這樣的。無論她擁有什麽，我都想要。
Dr. Mark Hyman:Also, Byron Katie has an incredible podcast called The Byron Katie Podcast. So, you can find it wherever you get your podcasts. You can learn more about it at podcasts.thework.com.
Dr. Mark Hyman:And I’m just so happy that you were born, happy that you had your suffering and figured out a way out of suffering and have been teaching that to millions of people for decades. It’s just so critical. Honestly, I thought you were like 60. I couldn’t even tell you were 78. You’re just so vibrant, alive and clear. I’m like wow, I want some of that. Whatever she’s having, I want that.
馬克·海曼博士：一定要看看拜倫·凱蒂的書。它們都是關於生活、幸福、快樂以及如何擺脫痛苦的美妙冥想。到最後，我想我已經明白了生活的目的，我快 62 歲了。最後，我想我明白了它與自由有關。它真的是自由，精神自由、靈魂自由、情感自由、身體自由，所有這些都在我們的控製之下。你會想，哦，人們處境很糟糕，你是怎麽做到的？
馬克·海曼博士：人們處境艱難。但我記得讀過維克多·弗蘭克爾的書《追尋生命的意義》，他在書中講述了他在奧斯維辛集中營的經曆，他意識到獄警和納粹唯一不能從他身上奪走的就是他的思想。盡管他在監獄裏，但他拒絕被監禁。這是一個非常美麗的故事，它提醒我們，無論我們身在何處，無論我們身處何方，真正決定我們存在狀態的是我們自己的解釋和信仰、思想和心靈。
馬克·海曼博士：這也讓我想起了 26 歲時，我去尼泊爾進行醫療考察時，遇到了一位藏醫。藏醫非常有趣。我和他一起出去玩，我們有一名翻譯，這個人在那裏待了 22 年。他在中國古拉格集中營待了 22 年，幾乎每天都遭受折磨，後來他逃離了西藏。
拜倫·凱蒂：哦，我的天哪。
馬克·海曼博士：我問他：“這一切中最困難的部分是什麽？”他說的話讓我震驚、謙卑和震驚。他說：“最困難的部分是我覺得我可能對中國獄卒失去同情的那一刻。”我想，哇，好吧。我離那還遠著呢。但如果這是真的，如果一個人能夠達到那種狀態，無論是集中營裏的維克多·弗蘭克爾還是中國古拉格集中營裏的藏醫，我們所有人都可以獲得自由。這就是你願意給予的。
拜倫·凱蒂：當你談到酷刑和對他來說最難的部分時，我猜你會說，那就像他們在折磨我，我的腦海裏可能會想，我希望他們不要這樣對待他們。我希望他們不要繼續這樣對待他們。
馬克·海曼博士：是的。
拜倫·凱蒂：[交談 01:10:05] 心靈是自由的，不再是關於你。這是關於明顯的肇事者，他正在對他這樣做，這意味著他被困在那種無論他是否意識到都會違背自己的精神狀態中。我們無法改變我們的天性，我們的天性，我們有話要說，愛、關懷、同情。但是自我會怎麽想，我們的想法和信念會讓我們對此感到困惑。
拜倫·凱蒂：所以，我知道有一次一個男人說他要殺了我，當時已經是深夜了。也許是淩晨兩點，我不記得了。但月亮出來了，雲朵飄揚。很美。顯然，我在黑暗中進入了他的空間，那是在河邊的沙漠裏，嚇壞了他。但他說他要殺了我，我當時想，我希望他不要那樣對他。他真的拿著槍，扣動了扳機，我能看到月亮和天空，看到他眼中的恐懼和同情，聽到河流和美麗的沙漠。誰會想念生命中的最後幾分鍾呢？這就是我們在過去和未來時所做的。我們想念我們的生命。我們想念我們的生命。
馬克·海曼博士：哦，哇。您剛才說的話完美地概括了一切，那就是我們錯過了自己的生活，因為我們生活在過去或未來，那裏存在著苦難，我們錯過了時刻的魔力和意義，而這些時刻總是為我們準備著。這就像哇哦，太好了。太好了。太好了。好吧，謝謝你——
拜倫·凱蒂：我們是誰，我們是什麽，嗯？
馬克·海曼博士：拜倫，非常感謝你來到醫生的藥房。這是最好的談話，每個人都應該看看你的工作。請去了解更多關於拜倫·凱蒂的信息。下載“評判你的鄰居”工作表，下載“一次一個信念”工作表。一定要看看她的作品，你可以每周查看，參與其中，你甚至可以成為她在 bk.com 上與她一起工作的人，查看她的播客，擁有她的書。她是國家的，也許是世界的寶藏。
馬克·海曼博士：凱蒂，非常感謝你。我希望很快能親自見到你。
拜倫·凱蒂：馬克，我們就這樣吧。我非常愛你，也愛你在這個世界上所做的工作，天哪。謝謝你，我的朋友。太有趣了。
Dr. Mark Hyman:And definitely check out Byron Katie’s books. They’re just beautiful meditations on life and happiness and joy and how we get free from suffering. At the end of the day I think the purpose of life that I’ve figured out, and I’m going to be 62. Finally, I think I figured out it’s about freedom. It’s really freedom, mental freedom, spiritual freedom, emotional freedom, physical freedom, which is all under our control. And you think, oh well people are in horrible situations and how do you do that?
Dr. Mark Hyman:And people are, people are in tough situations. But I just remember reading Victor Frankl’s book, Man’s Search for Meaning, where he talked about his experience in Auschwitz in a concentration camp and he realized that the only thing that the guards and the Nazis couldn’t take from him was his mind. And he refused to be imprisoned even though he was in prison. And it’s such a beautiful story about reminding us that no matter where we are, what we’re in, it’s really our own interpretation and beliefs and our thoughts and our minds that determine our state of being.
Dr. Mark Hyman:And it also reminds me of when I was 26 I went to Nepal on a medical expedition and I met this guy who was a Tibetan doctor. So, it’s very interesting, Tibetan medicine. I went to hang out with him and we had a translator and this guy spent 22 years. He escaped from Tibet after 22 years in a Chinese gulag where he was tortured almost every day.
Byron Katie:Oh my goodness.
Dr. Mark Hyman:And I said to him, “What was the most difficult part about all of that?” And what he said shocked me and humbled me and blew me away. He said, “The hardest part were the moments where I felt like I might lost compassion for Chinese jailers.” I’m like, wow, okay. I’m far from that. But if that’s true, if a human being can achieve that state, whether it’s Victor Frankl in a concentration camp or a Tibetan doctor in a Chinese gulag, all of us can become free. And that’s what you’re offering to give.
Byron Katie:As you were telling that of the torture and the hardest part for him, that question, I projected you were going to say, it would be like they’re torturing me and my mind might think I hope they don’t do this to them. I hope they don’t continue doing this to them.
Dr. Mark Hyman:Yeah.
Byron Katie:[crosstalk 01:10:05] mind is free it’s not about you anymore. It’s about the apparent perpetrator and he’s doing that to him, meaning he’s stuck in that state of mind that he would go against himself whether he’s aware of it or not. We can’t shift our nature and our nature is, we have words for it, loving, caring, compassionate. But what the ego would think and what we’re thinking and believing would confuse us about that.
Byron Katie:So, I know a man said he was going to kill me at one point and it was late at night. Maybe 2:00 AM in the morning, I don’t recall. But the moon was out and the clouds. It was beautiful. And evidently, I was in his space in the dark, it was in the desert by the river, and frightened him. But he said he was going to kill me and my thought was I hope he doesn’t do that to him. And he actually had a gun and pulled the hammer back and I could see the moon and the sky and the fear in his eyes and the compassion and heard the river and the beautiful desert. Who would want to miss the last few moments of their life? And that’s what we do when we’re in the past and future. We miss our life. We miss our life.
Dr. Mark Hyman:Oh, wow. What you just said is the perfect summary of everything, which is we miss our lives because we’re living in the past or the future where the suffering exists and we’re missing the magic and meaning of the moment, which is always ready for us. And that is like whoa, that is so good. That is so good. That is so good. Well, thank you-
Byron Katie:Who and what we are, huh?
Dr. Mark Hyman:Thank you so much, Byron, for being on the Doctor’s Farmacy. This has been the best conversation and everybody’s got to check out your work. Please go find out more about Byron Katie. Download the Judge-Your-Neighbor Worksheet, download the One-Belief-at-a-Time Worksheet. Make sure you check out her work, which you can view every week and be part of and you can even be the one she’s working with at home with bk.com and check out her podcast, own her books. She’s a national, maybe global treasure.
Dr. Mark Hyman:So, Katie, thank you so much for being you. I hope I get to see you in person sometime soon.
Byron Katie:Mark, let’s do that. I love you dearly and your work in the world, oh boy. Thank you, my friend. So much fun.
