我們邀請到一位傑出人士
today we have a very distinguished guest
00:08
我們將討論言論自由問題
We will talk about freedom of speech
高校這方麵卻缺乏
US college campuses lack thereof
我們將有很棒討論
We will have some good discussions I believe
那麽首先在開始討論前
So first of all without much do
莉迪亞請給新觀眾介紹一下你的平台、油管頻道
Lydia can you just talk a little bit about your platform,YouTube channel for our new viewers
大家新年好 Jim新年好
Happy New Year everybody Happy New Year Jim
我是創辦者 辦了陌上美國
I'm the founder of Moshang USA
2018年 我們先是基於微信辦公號
So Moshang USA was founded in 2018. First we based on Wechat(equivalent to FB in Chinese) as a public blog
我們成長很快近30萬粉絲 3年實現的
We grew very fast close to 300k followers within 3-yr
遺憾的是 可能因為談了很多個人法理和自由
Unfortunately probably we talked too much about the individual liberty and freedom
去年9月被微信封殺
WeChat shut us down last Sept
作為審核受害者 言論自由無比珍貴
So as a victim of censorship freedom of speech is dear to our heart
我們要為言論自由而戰
We want to reserve and fight for freedom speech
吉姆現在我來介紹一下您 歡迎補充
Jim let me try to introduce you, of course you can add
你目前是MIT言論自由聯盟創始人之一
you are right now one of the founders of MIT free speech Alliance
我們後麵會具體介紹MIT言論自由聯盟
We will talk a lot about MIT Free Speech Alliance
你是MIT75級畢業生 我出生於那年
you graduated from MIT in 1975, that was the year when I was born
我2002年入學MIT 在那2年時光
I went to MIT in 2002. Only stayed two years there
目前你在辦Jim Rutt秀電台係列節目
so currently you're the host of host of Jim Roth Show podcast serials
該節目針對前沿的科技、麵對未來的經濟、政治和社會
I think the podcast examined cutting-edge thinking in science and technology of future of our economic,political and social system
非常有意思
so it's quite interesting
你事業很成功
You had very impressive career
我從網上看到的
I noticed on the website
你曾是智庫聖塔菲學院的主席 這是個智庫機構
you were the past chairman of the Santa Fe Institute,a think tank
你做過網絡解局公司的CEO 那是20年前
and you also were CEO of Network Solutions two decades ago
你是首位CTO 服務於湯普森·路透社
U were the first CTO I think the Chief Technology Officer for Thompson Reuters
我猜想那時候
I guess at that time maybe
路透社的觀點可能更多元
there were more diverse views at Reuters
相對現在而言 不過是我的猜想
than now. But that's kind of my speculation
你創立領導了多家高科技公司
And you founded and led several technology companies
貫穿你的職業人生
throughout your career
你還製作了一個奧斯卡獎電影
and you even produced the award-winning movie
並由此開發了一個流行的遊戲
and created a popular mobile game
有什麽你辦不到的事嗎
What you can‘t do, Jim?
我什麽都樂意常試
I do all kinds of things
我跟隨自己的興趣做事
I follow when I think interesting
有時會遇到大失敗但有時又會帶來極棒的結果
Sometime it leads to the cliff you are fall off sometime it leads to very good places
總是如此起伏
always being that ways
我鼻子能感覺有趣的方向
I follow my nose my nose knows to find what's interesting
什麽是前沿
near the cutting edge
補充與這個對話有關的一點
probably relevant to this conversation
我是參與構建網絡世界
I was involved with building the online world
從最早開始的首批人
from the very earliest days
我曾為叫資源的一家公司工作 那是1980年
I went to work for a company called Source back 1980
那比你記事還早那時你才5歲
that's long before you even thought of. You were 5 years old
莉迪亞你那時也還不記事(我估計)
Lydia you weren't even thought of yet probably.
我是80年代出生的
I was born in 80s
80年在資源公司
at the Source in 1980
我們已經有了今天網絡的雛形
we had much of what's on the web today but
隻是文本格式 一秒30字節
in text mode only 30 characters a second
難以置信 不過當時世界上獨有
believe it or not but there was nothing like an else on Earth
很快我們用戶激增
quickly we had tens of thousands
從幾萬到幾十萬地指數增加
and hundreds of thousands of customers
我們有郵箱有聊天工具
and we had mail we had chat
有公告區所有早期的一切
we had bulletin boards we had the earliest things
類似社交媒體的所有雛形
that you might point to as a predecessor to social media
有新聞 股票信息 網購
we had newswires stock prices online shopping
我們做了第一次天主教在線懺悔聊天
We had the first Catholic confession done over and chat
還是經華盛頓大主教批準
with the approval of the Archbishop of Washington
我參與了網絡世界最早構建
I was actually involved with the online world
至少是與用戶有關的各部分
at least the consumer side of it
從最早的時候 我見證了網絡科技的更新換代
since the very beginning I've seen all the iterations
現在的互聯網是最新代了
What's the internet is only the most recent one
現在也不會是最終版本
probably not the last one
你是互聯網最早先驅之一了
You are an pioneer in the internet technology
我記得最早亞馬遜版本 也是文本
I remember I saw the Amazons first version was a text-only
您見證了網絡從一個嬰兒成為巨人 這個巨人影響著我們日常生活
Basically you saw the internet from a baby into a giant. Now the giant affects our life in a daily basis
是的 我回想80年代 比如1981年可能一共就一萬來人用戶而不是科教屆
Exactly I can think about 1980s By 1981 there were maybe a hundred thousands humans consumers not academic
全球在使用網絡的就這麽多
online in the world
差不多就一萬來人
right a hundred thousands
大部分是男的 大概96%男性
Most of them are males about 96% male
在那時候的情況就是如此
at the time and
大部分是關心技術的人之類的
mostly technical people Etc
需要很有錢因為當時使用網絡太貴
had to be fairly affluent because it was very very expensive
就是你說的一個小種子
and that you say this tiny little seed
發展成我們生活的今日世界
in some ways grown up to be this world we live in today
非常有趣和充滿讓人好奇的事物
it's been very interesting and curious
也有很多起伏波折
but lots of twists and turns I will say
我記得互聯網的早期發展MIT參與其中
I think the beginning of internet had connections to MIT right
來自軍事項目的研究撥款
through some military research of funding
是的 最早叫做國防高精技術網
Yeah there was a DARPA net originally
鮑勃·卡恩和另外一個家夥(忘了名字)
Bob Kahn and who is the other dude(Vint Cerf)
2個研發了國防網絡的人
2 guys were basically researchers created the thing
很聰明也沒有計劃民用化
It was clever never intended for commercial use
初始目的是開發一應急網絡防備核戰爭
it was designed to be a survivable network in case of nuclear war
沒有中央處理係統讓互聯網
because it had no Center that makes the internet
不同就是隻要有部分比特字符存在
different is that if any bits of it survived
服務器會讓它們合到一塊
the routers can stitch themselves back together
事實上基於此建立民用互聯網不是好選擇
truth was not a good choice to build a commercial Network on
原因有多種
for a number of reasons but
不過因為其他原因 那我可以講幾小時了
for other reasons which I can talk about for hours
在1990年關鍵時間前後主導了走向
it did win during that critical period around 1990
那是個分叉路口發展時期
when there were still alternatives out there
至少通過那個時段我們擁有了互聯網
and we can have internet at least through this era
也就是現在網絡世界一切的基礎
that's the platform on which all these other things are growing
包括莉迪亞現在用的各種平台
including Lydia's all her various platforms
利用網絡世界的所有這些可供性的例子
That's an example of taking advantage of all these affordances
都是網絡世界共給我們的可能
network world offers to us
了不起 我們確實找到合適的人
Great definitely we found the right person
你是最初幾十個人之一
since you are among the first dozens of people
創立和主導了互聯網發展
who are building and leading the internet
一旦我們遇到網絡不公平
every unfair treatment from internet we got
我們就來找您要公道
we will come to you for help
我們是通過MIT FSA聯係上的
Okay since we got connected through MIT Free Speech Alliance
能否跟我們更多介紹一下該組織(MFSA)
Could you tell us more about this organization
你在MIT FSA裏做了什麽工作
How did you get involved with MIT free speech Alliance
是的MIT言論自由聯盟(MFSA)
yes MIT free speech Alliance
現在有幾百成員
a group now of many hundreds of
都是MIT的校友學生教師科研人員
MIT alums student-faculty researchers and
還有MIT的朋友 都認同
friends of MIT affiliate with the idea of
我們需要更多的言論和觀點自由
we need more free speech more viewpoint diversity
在MIT能有更多的質疑的權利
and free inquiry at MIT
不過這組織還很新
but it's very recent it only
是21年10月才成立的
started in late October 2021
我自己和兩個MIT的朋友
myself and two friends of mine
通過郵件交流
from MIT were involved in an email exchange just
溝通各種事
things in general, right
突然就發生了艾伯特教授事件
suddenly the Dorian Abbott Affair happened
MIT取消邀請該著名地球物理家來演講
MIT disinvited the distinguished geophysicist from giving a talk
內容關於係外行星大氣
about exoplanet atmospheres the atmospheres of
繞我們以外的其他恒星行星
planets around other stars than our own
很學術專業的演講
very technical talk and
但是他發表過一個評論文
but he had published an essay
他跟斯坦福教授伊萬一起
he had another person(Prof. Ivan, Stanford) published an assay
在新聞周刊發評論
in Newsweek magazine
這是美國發行量很好的一款雜誌
General circulation news magazine the United States
文章挑戰了一大觀點
where he had challenged the idea of
就是多元(結果)平等和包容
diversity equity and inclusion (DEI)
提出了取代方案叫做
and it proposed an alternative called
擇優 公平 機會平等
Merit Fairness and Equality
這在我們當下
and as happens in our world today
常見現象發生了 一群推特暴民
all too often in my opinion a Twitter mob fromed
哇 竟有人反對
wow we get having anybody talking against
多元(結果)平等包容(DEI)
diversity equity & inclusion (DEI)
即使他們有個合理的取代方案
even they have a perfectly reasonable alternative proposal
我們也要找MIT
so we are going to demand MIT
取消講座邀請哪怕他不任職MIT
disinvite this person even though he is not a MIT employee
不應該受MIT政策管製
had no impact got MIT policy
有沒有嚴格的科學模型
Was there a strict scientific model
推特暴徒引發了一大堆網絡惡攻
The twitter mob raised a whole bunch of stink
在我們看來非常愚蠢地
in our view very foolishly
MIT的領導層向這些網絡暴民投降
MIT leadership succumbed to the Mob
取消邀請這個知名科學家
disinvited this distinguished scientist
來做學術講座
from giving his talk and
我們三個人發了一圈郵件
so the three of us were emailing around
就MIT發生的一些事
about issues about MIT
有的關於DEI有的是其他事
anyway some around DEI some around other thing
我們覺得 真混蛋
and we said "Damn it!"
10:44
情況太不對
This is not right
我們來聯係一些朋友看
So let's reach out to some of our friends and see if
是否能找到誌同道合的
we can pull some people together
很快我們集合了幾十個人
quickly we had a few dozen then
很快也找到全美校友聯盟組織
we came across the Americans of the alumni free-speech Alliance
AFSA就是
AFSA turned out that
已經有其他美國五所高校
five other universities in United States
已經開始成立支持言論自由的組織
already established free speech organizations
包括康大 華盛頓李 普林斯頓
Cornell Washington and Lee Princeton
佛吉尼亞大學和戴維森大學
University of Virginia and Davison
就是這頭5所
were the first five and
我們覺得這不錯
then we said okay so
11:21
去了解了一下他們在做什麽
we kind of look what they were doing and you know
就像如今很多創業者一樣
like many entrepreneurs over there were over the years
我們偷學其中好經驗為己所用
we just stole some good ideas and and added some of our own
做了大同小異的事情
and did something similar and something different
很快我們成立MIT FSA
quickly we sparked off MIT free speech Alliance
這是個合法獨立組織
and it is a standard alone legal entity
非MIT官方組織
not officially affiliated with MIT
在申請成立501(c)3組織
It's now filed for 501(c)3 status
這樣捐助人能獲得免稅
so we can actually accept today tax-deductible contributions
有了一些委員會成員
and has a number of committees that
負責運作不同事務項目
are in operation working on various projects
增加顯著性和施壓
increase the salience of and frankly pressure
MIT管理層保護言論自由
the administration about protecting Free Speech
自由質疑尤其增加校園視角多樣
free inquiry and particularly Viewpoint diversity on campus
是的太重要了
Yeah that's very important
我們的網站是
and our website for anyone wants to check it out
是 那麽以我所知
Yeah so as I know
不需要是MIT畢業的
you don't have to be a MIT graduate or hold a degree from MIT
你也可以加入我們
you can free to join us
注冊為MFSA成員加入這個行動
and sign as a member to join this course, right
是的你將每周收到我們的新聞郵件
correct and you'll get our weekly email newsletter
更新近況和新活動
tell you what's going on pointing you to events
除了MIT言論自由聯盟的進展還
MIT free-speech Alliance but also
有其他人就言論自由的行動
other people doing work in the Free Speech area
我們也很高興找到很多盟友
that's been very gratifying to find so many allies
比如FIRE組織和非常學院的人
people like FIRE and heterodox Academy
和其他同仁們所以我們很快就
and other folks so we've become very rapidly part of
成了維護言論自由運動中一部分
the wider ecosystem around free speech free inquiry and viewpoint diversity
很好 說到這個 吉姆
Yeah talking about that Jim
我的一個問題就是你是否看到
I'm just wondering do you see this kind of
為爭取言論自由的反擊
fight back to protect Free Speech now
成為一個運動並獲得階段高潮
it's a movement getting some momentum
你提到了不同大學不同組織
You talk about different organizations different universities
都開始發聲了
start to you know to make their invoice
這個行動發聲的組織
you know this organization starts to make their voices heard
我們跟校友言論自由聯盟
the Alumni Free Speech Association which we are now
幾周前成為正式成員之一
formally a member as of a couple of weeks ago
他們告之已有超過百個校園組織
They tell us that they have over 100 University groups
他們相互合作提供幫助
who they're working with to help
我們提供一些
that we provide some
免費資料歡迎他們分享傳播
materials and say hey feel free to distribute these
參照我們公司的規則
to people look at our corporate bylaws
委員會結構運作規則等
look at their committee structure etcetera
從五所開始 現在
there was five now
已經15所 希望
I believe there's 15 and hopefully
14:14
到夏天會超過100所
by the summer will be over 100
不同組織在不斷成立
different groups that are formed up around
都是為同一理念創立在不同學校的組織
this mission at different university
所以可以肯定地說
so yeah it's it's certainly
是個蓬勃壯大的運動
A big growth area
我想這行動也許發起有些遲了
I think response probably late in the day
相較言論自由環境的衰退
actually to the decay of free speech
尤其是美國這些領頭大學的校園言論自由
on America's leading University campuses
我以前也有所察覺
I will say I'm and I was sort of aware of it
不過當我真的去仔細了解後
but when I've actually dug in
發現校園(言論自由)真是差
and seen how bad it's gotten on campuses today
我覺得真讓人要驚叫了
I mean it's like Wow
坦率說我們5年前就該行動
We frankly should have done this 5 years ago
不過亡羊補牢比不做好
But better later than no at all
是的十年前開始就好了
Right, better started 10 years ago
非常令人鼓舞
that's very encouraging to see it
15:03
這個行動 不過我理解
this movement but I understand
根據我們觀察這需要些勇氣
from our observation it takes some courage
人們才敢反對
for people to speak up against the
就是質疑順從型思維
conformity type of thinking
因為教育圈的人估計自己事業前途
because people in academia care about their career
企業界也類似
so do people in business but what I see now
在許多不同的領域 比如
in many many different fronts like
教育 娛樂 媒體
academia entertainment media
企業 都存在
big corporations there is a
意識統一程度
level of conformity you know
就是希望越多人想法一樣
that they want everybody to think the same
支持同一套想法
support the same set of ideas
你是否同意這個觀察
do you agree this is a right observation
並且從您的角度因為你
also from your perspective because you
畢業於70年代
graduated in the 70s
另一MFSA創辦者Tom
I think you and the other founder Tom
提到那個時代有很多
mentioned a little bit at that time
校園充斥不同觀點但是
there was a lot of different opinions on campus but
辯論更自由 請就此談一下
there was more free debates can you talk about this
16:13
那個現象和你的觀察
kind of phenomena also what did you see
發生了什麽變化? 噢大變樣
what has changed? Oho completely
就是我去MIT讀大學的那年
When I showed up in MIT campus
那時可是言論極為自由的
it was a riot of free speech
你什麽都可以說
you can say anything, right
別忘了那是美國告別老式風俗的階段
Keep in mind this was the end of traditionalism in America
你知道 就講1969年吧
You know say 1969
那時候女的還不允許
Women were not allowed to
在大學男生宿舍過夜
spend the night at men's college dorms
見鬼了 開始吸大麻喝啤酒
WTH smoking weed drinking beers
抗議越戰
protesting Vietnam War
支持越戰
protesting... supporting the Vietnam War
你什麽都可以講
you can say anything
16:57
那是左右中都有深刻價值觀的時代
it was a very deep value of the left right center particularly
尤其是精英大學
Particularly at elite universities
主張言論自由是價值觀中最重要的
freedom of speech was the most important of all values
諷刺的是1964言論自由運動發起地伯克利
ironically enough the Berkeley Free Speech movement of 1964
真正發起地
was where this really got started
加州伯克利大學
Berkeley California Berkeley University
現在成了最思想統一者之一
now one of the most conformists
美國校園言論最壓製地方
speech suppressing environment in America
但是校園思想言論大解放發源地
but the idea of radical free speech on college campuses
卻確實從伯克利開始
really started there and
盡管兩黨當時相互厭惡對方
to go from this was by all parties who hated each other right
但是那時他們都同意言論自由
but they all agreed that Free Speech
不惜代價捍衛
must be protected at all costs
當時隻有共產主義者不這麽想
other than the Communists
隻有一小撮是共產主義者
we had a small number of Communists
他們確實反言論自由
They were absolutely about suppressing Free Speech but
但是他們才不到1% They were you know less than 1%
人人也討厭他們 and everybody hated them
反言論自由也讓他們
and the fact that they were against Free Speech made them
也沒有信譽
non-credible with everybody else
無論左右都厭惡共產主義者
Left and right they all hated the communists
但是現在驚人數量的
And now we are going to point out a staggering
最讓我注意到的
the biggest eye-opener for me so far
當下到底發生什麽的時候
in my learning about what's really going on
就是MIT的老師們
is that the MIT faculty
召開了一係列會議
had a series of meetings to discuss
艾伯特事件和相關所有事
the Abbott Affair and all the things came around
包括成立MIT言論自由聯盟(MFSA) that including starting MIT FSA
一個150-160人參與的匿名調查
in a confidential poll of about 150 160
參與者都是MIT老師
MIT faculty members
超過一半的人
over half 50% plus
說每天
said on an everyday basis
他們都要
They felt like their ability to express themselves
謹言慎行
frankly and clear uninhibitedly was being suppressed
當問及他們在當下社會環境
Then when they were asked in the current broader social environment
你覺得自己和同行受到多大程度的
what degree do believe yours and your colleagues ability
自由言論侵害
speak freely is under assault
結果答案幾乎是80%
the number was almost 80%
這竟是MIT 一個本是智力尖子的地方
and this is at MIT the place of intellectual rigors, right
我本覺得
where I would have thought
該是堅守到最後的陣地
would have been the last place to fall for the stuff
但是就是這種證據
but here we are testimony under
匿名民調
private confidential vote
50%覺得每天被壓製
50% feel they're being suppressed everyday
80%覺得整個社會環境
and 80% feel that the environment is generally
讓人覺得受威脅和壓製
threatening and suppressive
無法誠實完整地表達自己的想法
are people honestly and fully expressing themselves
19:46
這讓人好吃驚
It‘s surprised to me
因為MIT是STEM領域大牛校
Because MIT is very strong at STEM field
STEM人才是依靠
For STEM talents you are
事實數據說話的
based on facts and numbers, data
不是靠講故事
not based on stories
如果我們的STEM精英大學
If our STEM elite universities
都被這麽強的審核困擾
are been trapping in strong censorship
甚至是自我審核
even self censorship
那真是這個國家未來的大問題
That could be a huge problem in future of this country
世界末日
End of the world I mean
科學的首要
the essence of science
就是開放和強烈的質疑
is open and rigorous inquiry
是吧 我們做實驗獲取數據
right we go we do experiments we gather data
我們相互科學辯論
we argue with each other
你很少看到像兩物理學家那樣的爭論
you never seen arguments quite like two physicists
他們爭執不停
having an argument they go at each other right
他們互相挑戰
they challenged each other
如果一些想法變成神聖就無法被挑戰
but if some ideas become holy they can't be challenged
或者一些權威
or some authorities
一定要被引用因為
must be quoted because they
他們與某些政治派別
They aligned with some political factions
或者某些少數族裔一致
or some ethic minorities or something
那即使不是學術完全死亡
That’ll be if not quite the death
也是對科學的嚴重衝擊
the very substantial damage to science
這將阻礙全人類
and that will hold back all of humanity
肯定會嚴重影響一些國家
It'll certainly hurt those countries
他們受影響最多
where they're most infected
科學是全球科研工作者的禮物
science is a gift of workers to the world, right
你創造科學事實和價值
you create scientific facts and value
世界上每個人都可以很快受益
everyone in the world can soon take advantage of that
如果你讓小圈子改變科學
so agree that your sub optimizing science
等於欺騙人類前進的能力
you're cheating the human race out of its ability to move forward
21:26
這是非常非常糟糕的事
this is very very bad stuff
特別感覺到當今的學生更少地
Especially we feel nowadays students are less
對辯論各方持開放心態
open to debates of all sides
覺得他們不少恐怕已被灌輸
We feel they have probably already being fed up
就是被稱為的洗腦
as so-called brainwashed
你覺得有改變學生的良藥嗎
Do you think there is any remedy to rescue those students?
讓他們變回更支持言論自由
To make them back to support more free speech
絕對的 你說得對
Yup absolutely you are right
恐怕被影響最厲害的
probably the ones that been beaten down the most
就是學生了
are the students, right
雖然我們沒具體相關統計
We don't have the data yet for
不過FIRE組織做了一些校園調查
FIRE is done some surveys on campus come up
結果驚人 在60-70%的區間
with staggering numbers in the 60 and 70% range
我們正在嚐試在MIT進行一項研究
We're trying to commission a study on MIT campus
了解下學生的情況
see what the students are
有意思的是我們發現
interestingly what we can tell
學生的主要問題不是明著來審核
the real problem for students isn't so much active censorship
而是自我主動審核
It is self-censorship
一個我們在做的事情
and one of things we've now
就是發現竟然有很多自我審核
work on this and realize how much self-censorship
這是學生麵對的最重要問題
most important issue picked for students
我們將提出一係列關於
we're going to be coming out with a whole series of
關於打破自我審查壁櫥
ideas about the idea that break out of the self-censorship closet
對人類 對你自己負責
you know you owe it to humanity you owe it to yourself
我們實際上認為本科生
we actually think that the number of even undergraduates
完全接受審查
who fully are bought into this idea of censorship
和破壞觀點多樣性
and destroying viewpoint diversity
應該不到一半
is still less than half of
大多數人可能仍然反對
the majority are probably still oppose
不過他們被恐嚇了如果能發聲
But they just intimidated and if they will speak up
並獲得其他人支持
and have other people will support them
我們認為有機會出現
we think there's a chance for them to be a
講實話的潮流就會風起雲湧
groundswell of fact
比如人們說我們要這些混蛋付出代價
what people say "we are not free to those A-hole
不能在推特上作威作福 對吧
on twitter say", right
我們有自己的觀點
We have our views and
美國人我們有言論自由的權利
we are Americans we have the right to say it
我們有一些盟友會來幫助我們
We have some allies will come to our aid
也有人試圖攻擊我們
some people try to beat up on us
這是我們所看到的未來一大趨勢
that's broad streak of what we‘ve seen going forward
我們已經有些在校學生
we already have some interest from some students
開始在校園發起相關組織
starting an on-campus organization
非常希望將大幅增加學生人數
Very hopeful that we will increase our number of students
尤其在未來六個月內
substantially in the coming six months
會有行動幫助那些
there‘ll be activities on campus to allow people
支持言論自由的聚到一起
who believe in free speech to come together
說他們想說
say what they want to say
並沒有顧忌
and get away with it
我們還計劃組織校園
we also are looking to arrange some on-campus
就爭議話題展開辯論
debates on controversial issues
一些是圍繞左右立場的
Some of them will be in the normal right left axis
一些則就其他方向的話題 some made in other axis
樹立這樣一種觀念非常重要
We think it's very important to model the idea
即所有說話真誠
that all speakers who were speaking in good faith
使用良好論據
are using good argumentation
合乎邏輯的演講者都有權
and speaking logically have the right to
make their case on campus
在校園裏提出自己的觀點
如果你不同意某人
If you disagree with somebody
夥計們那就反駁他們
disprove them my friends
而不是不讓他們說話
don't say they cannot speak
我們的另一個項目
so that's another one of our projects
處於計劃階段
that's in the planning stages
安排和獲得財務支持
is to schedule and support finance
校園的爭議話題辯論
some controversial debates on campus
我出生在文革末期
I was born at the end of the Culture Revolution
so I could see really from our perspective perspective
你知道如果某些事情不能進行辯論
you know if something cannot be debated
國家可以往很糟糕方向發展
the country can go into very bad direction
我現在的理論是
I think my theory now is
美國很多年輕人沒經曆過
in this country many young people they haven't experienced
他們沒真吃過壓製的苦頭
much hardship they haven't been really suppressed by anything
但他們有點像……說得不好聽點
but they kind of like... To me use a harsh word
空虛 他們試圖
a little bit 'empty' you know they try to
堅持他們覺得高尚的東西
hold on to something they think really noble
他們覺得一些說法比另一些優等
To they some speech is better than others
於是他們想
They think they want to, you know
鎮壓“壞的”言論
suppress the bad speech
但我不認為他們真有智慧
but I don't think they really have the wisdom
裁決對錯
to judge what is good what is bad
什麽是好的需要由
what is good has to be decided by
由激烈辯論來決定
as you said through vigorous debate
要傾聽所有立場方
to hear all the sides
現在我覺得問題是
right now I feel the problem is
有些人有言論自由但不是
there is free speech for some people but not for
有某些觀點的其他人
others if you have certain point of views
這真的是個問題
That's really a problem
是的 我認為是你說的那樣
Yeah I do think that some of this is that you say
美國我們有言論自由
We've had free speech in America since
1971年是肯定言論自由了
since 1971 for sure but
至少在 1964 年開始起
at least starting to roll by 1964
在那之前我們有名義上的言論自由
We had nominal Free Speech before that
但是有很多非正式的審查
but there was a lot of informal censorship going on
在不同方麵上進行
in different directions, right
不過過去50年裏
But for last 50 years
我們越擁有真的言論自由
and more we've had true free speech
不幸的是很多人
and so unfortunately a lot of folks
不明白這多稀有和寶貴
don't understand how rare and valuable that is
尤其從曆史角度
in the history of the world
在人類曆史上沒有多少次
there haven't been very many times in human history
你可以真實說出你的想法
were you could literally say what you thought
而不擔心得罪國王或者教會
you didn't worry about offending a king or a church
一個地主或一個軍閥
or a landlord or a warlord
看一下人類曆史完全
We look at human history completely covered with
被各種權力所籠罩
various authorities of different sorts
各種試圖要求一致性
that are trying to demand conformity
統一思想 出現這種泡沫
in thinking and this bubble
過去50或60年來在西方出現的
we've had in the West for the last fifty or sixty years
在人類曆史上是非常不尋常的
is remarkably unusual in human history
非常有價值
remarkably valuable
不巧是人們不記得曆史
Unfortunate people don't remember the the previous period
或者沒有真正經曆過
or don't have experience with
我與人交談發現數量驚人的
Talk to so many people I found an amazing number particularly
尤其是來自中國、古巴、委內瑞拉
people from China or Cuba or Venezuela
波蘭或俄羅斯的 or
Poland or Russia
經曆過極權主義的
who actually experienced totalitarianism
他們是言論自由的堅定支持者
They are stronger supporters of free speech
比任何現在美國人都懂 因為他們知道
than any current American coz they know
沒有言論自由是什麽感覺
what is like to not have free speech
太對了 我們是審查機製受害者
Exactly I mean we are the victim of censorship
即使現在我們仍生活在虛擬邊境小鎮
even now we still live in a virtual border town
我們必須麵對那些
we have to face those people who
suppress our speech
壓製我們說話的人
在美華人非常難
It's very difficult for Chinese Americans living in the US
充分表達我們的想法
to fully express all what we want to say
28:26
覺得美國孩子們
I think America's kids
需要明白真正集權主義
need to understand that the real authoritarianism
比他們想象的可怕多了
is much stronger than what they thought
他們中一些把稻草人當敵人
Some of them just use a strawman as enemy
他們沒有跟真獨裁勢力交手經驗
They do not have experiences with a real strong enemy
如果我們說多了話
Any if we say something too much
可能會危及自己和在中國家人的安全
It could danger our own safety and our family in China
這是非常不同的情況
That's very different situation
我隻希望那些理想化的孩子能理解
I just hope those very ideological kids can understand that
然後他們會珍惜美國
Then they will appreciate America
言論自由對這個國家是珍貴禮物
how freedom of speech is such a gift to the country
這就是為什麽我喜歡跟移民交流
That's why I love reaching out to immigrants
進入美國是這項工作的一部分
enter the United States as part of this work
因為他們可以從真實經曆中證明
cause they can testify from real experience
土生美國人反而不能
that us Americans really can't
我們有理論想法
we have our theories we have our ideas
但是你們真感受過壓到臉上的靴子
but y'all actually felt the boot on your face
29:21
你們切實感受到不同
you can speak to just how different it is
住在一個不能隨便說話的地方
to live in a place where you can't speak
你們在中國有家人
even though as you said you have family in China
他們仍然可以以此限製你們
They still string upon you
但依然不同
but not in the same way that
是的 在失去前珍惜你的權利
Yeah cherish your right before you lose it
希望不要失去
Hope don't loss it
另外我提到的事情是
The other thing as I mention
70年代信共產主義的是很少的
there are a fewer communists back there in 1970s
他們存在於高校
They are imbedded in the universities
可能3-5%的美國人
Probably 3-5% Americans may
青睞馬克思主義
look favorably upon Marxism
而在美國人文係
In American humanity department
可能一半都是馬克思主義者
it may be half
在精英大學的英語係
In the English Dept at elite universities
估計有50%的自稱馬克思主義者
maybe 50% of people call themselves Marxists
他們笑稱這些是休閑椅罷工馬克思主義者
what do they call the lounge chair Marxist strike
他們是那些讀書 they are the ones who read the books
讀報自稱馬克思主義的人
read the journals and pronounce them Marxism
不過他們是在自由國家 But they are in a free country
如果他們實際在一個馬克思主義國家
if they were actually in a Marxist country
他們可能是首先被關集中營的
they may be the first ones to be thrown in the camps
但不巧的是確實有大量馬克思主義意識形態
but there is unfortunately a significant amount of Marxist ideology
是部分壓製言論自由的背後成因
behind some of the suppression of free speech
像70年代隻是一小部分人
just as in 1970 the small percentage of
30:46
馬克思主義者想壓製言論自由
who wanted suppress Free Speech were mostly Marxists
今天絕不是全部
by no means all today
我不是想說美國所有
so I'm not trying to say that all people who
反言論自由的
oppose to free speech in America
但是很多意識形態上的支持
but many of the ideological support
31:01
這個範圍的事尤其是所謂的警醒領域
for things in this area particularly the so-called woke area
完全來自法蘭克福學派
comes from the Frankfurt School
這本質上是德國版馬克思主義
which is essentially a German form of Marxism
它及其衍生理論
that is and in its descendants
有很強的痕跡
have significant footprint
尤其對人文和社會科學
Particularly in humanities and social science departments
美國高校這些相關院係
in the US higher education
是的 這些人文學科院係
Yeah those you know humanity departments
在我看來他們就像一個說法“進步主義”
they are in my opinion like we say use the term "progressive"
我們被要求學馬克思主義
we have to learn Marxism