美國發生了什麽 約瑟夫·斯蒂格利茨巡回演講

美國發生了什麽？ | 約瑟夫·斯蒂格利茨巡回演講 - 悉尼

What's happening in the United States? | Joseph Stiglitz Speaking Tour - Sydney
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WNbsV7jVHA

澳大利亞研究所 2024年8月14日

諾貝爾經濟學獎得主約瑟夫·斯蒂格利茨教授與澳大利亞第 29 任總理馬爾科姆·特恩布爾 AC 閣下和澳大利亞研究所國際與安全事務高級研究員艾瑪·肖蒂斯博士就澳大利亞與美國關係的未來進行了對話。

約瑟夫·斯蒂格利茨教授將作為澳大利亞研究所的客人訪問澳大利亞，這是我們 2024 年 30 周年慶典的一部分。

[掌聲]
歡迎大家，我是澳大利亞研究所的執行董事理查德·丹尼斯，今晚在這樣一個美妙的房間裏進行如此精彩的對話，所以我馬上回來和你們談談，但是，首先，讓我先歡迎大家，我希望大家關掉手機，我為這個提示無縫安排了這一切，但我真的很榮幸向大家介紹來自大都會當地原住民土地委員會的邁克爾·韋斯特叔叔，他出生、長大，一生都生活在悉尼的原住民社區，他是被偷走的一代人中的一員，如果你想更多地了解他，他會告訴你一些他今晚的旅程，邁克爾曾擔任過各種各樣的職務，包括新南威爾士州土著商會的董事，The Strain Communications 消費者行動的董事網絡和全國道歉日委員會聯合主席，所以請和我一起歡迎邁克爾叔叔，大家對這次演講有什麽期待，毫無疑問，我也很期待，嗯，我開車來的時候，和圖書館的某個人聊天，關於今晚的話題，美國發生了什麽，什麽沒有發生，有人可能會說，是的，我的意思是已經瘋狂了 8 年，或者什麽的，嗯，當你想想，嗯，是的，嗯，疫情告訴人們給自己注射漂白劑可能不是一個好主意，然後你看到衛生官員在後台感到震驚，然後你必須在全國範圍內發出警告，請不要給自己注射或喝漂白劑，這不是解決辦法，嗯，是的，我要說的是，我們這裏是美麗的蓋特爾國家，我們有世界上最美麗的港口，不是嗎，我們很幸運擁有它，嗯，我要說的是，我在這裏談論的是蓋迪加爾，顯然卡姆·雷格爾是在代碼機的另一邊，我們有 wangal，當我們向內陸前進時，在我們的左邊，如果我們在那裏劃船，嗯，在我們的右邊，Walla migle 顯然是 rers 和 vanal，作為一個強大的 camaga 女人的伴侶，名叫 bangaroo 嗯，我們有一塊以她命名的土地，我們還有以 balong 命名的歌劇院，他在那裏有自己的住所，然後我們繼續前進，我們有 param，在我們的語言中是 bar，我們有，嗯，其他語言也有，威爾士語，所以 bar 的意思是 e，還有一個關於悉尼港和水的整個美麗的創造故事，這是由一個巨大的 Bara 創造的，它現在就在東貝爾曼附近休息，那裏有一個小島叫 ml 或 memo 嗯，也被稱為山羊島，但它的真名是哺乳動物，它正在漫長的旅程中過渡回 L 委員會嗯，我要說的是，我們的圖騰非常重要，幾年前我們失去了它們，幾年前數十億個嗯，我們經曆過火災，那些火災風暴，嗯，我們的圖騰對我們來說非常重要，威爾士會來到這裏，這是吉格圖騰的一部分，在煤炭裝載機上還有雕刻，漂亮的鯨魚雕刻，它們會有不同的名字，鯨魚會有不同的名字，沿著海岸上下，因為它帶著小牛旅行，它們實際上會來到這裏，到戈姆拉，也就是親愛的港休息，但不幸的是他們不能，嗯，他們現在在那裏有船展，但是還有其他事情，但我會的，我前幾天還在想，如果它們來這裏休息，那不是很好嗎，但是他們現在不能了，但他們確實進來參觀，我相信這是他們記憶中許多千年來來到這裏，嗯，我想說，有一隻美麗的鳥，嗯，有白色的羽毛，黑色的尾羽，脖子很長，喙很長，嗯，它被稱為神聖的Ibis，呃，不要叫我本雞，謝謝，我是神聖的 IUS，就像埃及文化有神聖的 IIs 一樣，記住這一點非常重要，實際上，前幾天我和其他一些長老交談過，我們在談論這個問題，它實際上與 abigal 人有相似之處，當你想到它時，你認為那是什麽，因為它被剝奪了它的國家，它是濕地鳥，是一隻美麗的鳥，嗯，它讓我在疫情期間保持理智，我可以出去看看他們的一個小社區，可能到那邊的牆上，嗯，看到他們，他們的我之所以會這樣想是因為我尊重它們，而且我很幸運能夠在我家前院看到它們的幼崽，它們的喙很小，它們的父母在照顧它們，因為它們是一夫一妻製的，嗯，我想說的是，它們可能在翻垃圾桶，看起來有點髒，但這不是它們的錯，而是人類的錯，因為我們沒有關心它們的國家，它們隻是在努力生存，嗯，正如我所說，它們被剝奪了我們的土地，嗯，他們被指責造成了他們的處境，所以我們需要成為聰明的人類和聰明的澳大利亞人，嗯，確保我們在和解方麵有一條正確的前進之路，嗯，我們可以做得更好，我們是一個非常富裕的第一世界國家，我們的人民生活在第三世界條件下，我們可以做得更好，我知道去年的全民公投並沒有按照原始人想要的方式進行，但我們有 650 萬人投票支持我們嗯，我認為還有很多教育工作要做，還有很多真相需要揭露，這些會改變人們的思想，改變人們的心，嗯，我要說的是，我們有必要默哀一下，向祖先致敬，向地球母親致敬，向那些一路走來失去的人致敬，他們不僅僅是數字，他們都是人，有自己的夢想，有自己的家庭，有自己的社區，有自己的名字，還有，嗯，同樣重要的是要尊重所有 ABS TOS rad on tradish 所有者，長者和過去和現在的監護人，因為他們照顧著國家的精神和文化，作為澳大利亞人，你必須負責任地照顧好它們，嗯，我們在新南威爾士州有那些 40,000 年曆史的魚籠，還有 40,000 多年曆史的墓地，裏麵有男人和女人，還有嗯，儀式 andoko，所以嗯，如果我們默哀一分鍾，表達敬意，反思一下，現在就在這裏旅行，讓我們集中精力我們有三條美麗的河流，不是嗎？它們是演講的邊界，我們有 Hawks spre nepan 和 Georges，代表大都會地方 Abal 土地委員會，我們的長老和我們的成員歡迎今晚在座的各位，我相信這將是一場非常有趣的對話，是的，未來會怎樣，我想翻開新的一頁，是的，我們想說，大家一起努力，一起前進，進行坦誠的對話，講出我們需要的真相，我來這裏是為了這個圖書館，為了這個禮堂的開幕，我來過這裏很多次，我想當我來到這裏的州立圖書館時，這裏有很多東西，我想原住民也不包括在內，這裏有一些敏感材料，但州立圖書館最棒的地方是，我知道去年我們為 Abal toyr 開設了一個特別的房間，讓人們可以去那裏閱讀材料，以一種敏感和文化安全的方式，這就是我們所擁有的要明智地理解彼此的文化，我們希望你們也能在自己的文化中保持堅定的自我認同，這一點非常重要，我認為我們在過去幾年的疫情中學到，過去是，現在也是，將來也是，AB 的土地永遠不會安頓下來，讓我們互相尊重，尊重動物，尊重 II，如果他們能多一點尊重，我想在世界各地，在我們看到的地方，在他們的心中多一點愛，我想我們會有一個更美好的世界，不是嗎，也許他們中的一些人也需要一個大大的擁抱，我想他們確實需要，享受這個夜晚，我相信這將是一次有趣的談話，我有點害怕，期待著美國的未來，謝謝你，非常感謝邁克爾，再次感謝大家的到來，這對我們澳大利亞研究所來說是一個非常特別的夜晚，今年是我們成立 30 周年多年來，我一直試圖將偉大的想法融入澳大利亞的全國辯論中，今晚這樣的夜晚，既是實現這一目標的好方法，也是慶祝這一目標的好方法，所以，非常感謝大家今晚的到來，感謝在場的捐助者，環顧四周，看看這裏所有在聽的人，感謝你們，我真的很感激，今晚，斯蒂格教授的這次旅行部分得到了安德魯·法倫基金會的支持，非常感謝安德魯，讓我直接談正事，我想今晚會有一些話題要談，我們的第一位嘉賓當然是約瑟夫·斯蒂格萊茨教授，喬是世界銀行前首席經濟學家，諾貝爾經濟學獎得主，美國經濟委員會主席，比爾·克林頓總統的顧問，哥倫比亞大學商學院經濟學教授，說他對經濟產生了影響社區，事實上，經濟辯論隻是一個令人難以置信的輕描淡寫，所以我們可以先歡迎喬教授兩年前來到這裏，作為澳大利亞研究所的嘉賓，很高興他再次回來，我們今晚的下一位嘉賓當然是馬爾科姆·特布爾，馬爾科姆是我們第 29 任總理，在進入政界之前，他從事過法律、商業和媒體工作，顯然馬爾科姆多年來與美國有一些有趣的接觸，我猜想今晚甚至可能會討論這些接觸，包括與奧巴馬總統談判，一項將難民帶到美國的協議，特朗普總統當然對此有一些看法，當然，馬爾科姆也在恢複跨太平洋夥伴關係或 TPP 方麵發揮了作用，因為美國退出後，如果我們考慮到唐納德·特朗普目前的貿易方式，曆史正在重演，所以我們可以加入嗎Malcolm Turble 今晚的演講非常榮幸您能來到這裏，謝謝 Malcolm，最後，Emma 博士是澳大利亞研究所國際安全事務項目的負責人，Emma 是一位曆史學家和作家，她寫了一本關於澳大利亞與美國關係的精彩書籍，書名為《我們傑出的朋友澳大利亞與美國的致命聯盟》，EM 也剛剛開始製作一個新的播客係列，該係列由澳大利亞研究所製作，以美國命名，所以我想這取決於選舉結果，這意味著什麽，Emma 今晚將與 Joe 和 Malcolm 進行對話，因此，事不宜遲，Emma 博士，謝謝您，謝謝 Richard，嗯，沒什麽好說的，我想我們會努力填補時間，我們澳大利亞人當然一直在關注美國這次選舉周期，心裏有一種越來越強烈的不安感，我想正如 Michael 所說，我們都有點害怕，也許，也許這已經過去了在過去一周左右，哈裏斯競選總統的熱情和喜悅似乎有所緩和，但根本的事實是，對美國民主的真正威脅和支撐我們與美國關係的共同價值觀仍然存在，而且這些根本威脅非常真實，所以我們在這裏思考聯盟的狀態，選舉對我們和世界的影響，我想你知道，至少很明顯，特朗普團結了全世界有思想的人，我希望，我希望這裏有一個機會，讓這些新的聯盟在澳大利亞發展，讓我們對我們最重要的安全關係和我們在世界上的角色有新的思考，但我們必須從美國開始，喬，你的新書叫做《自由之路》，現在的競選活動似乎越來越多地涉及自由的相互競爭的理念，甚至被競選活動賦予了音樂形式，所以特朗普在他的集會上經常會唱一首名為《上帝保佑美國》的歌，以及那種勝利的歌詞是
我寧願做美國人，因為至少我知道我是自由的，所以這種對自由的消極個人主義看法
另一方麵，哈裏斯剛剛發布了她的第一則競選廣告，以碧昂斯的《自由》為背景音樂，碧昂斯的歌曲《自由》很重要，碧昂斯不允許很多人使用她的歌曲，歌詞是我也需要自由我也需要
現在你的書關注的是自由與不平等的關係，我們對自由的看法，以及這種看法可能如何受到不平等的影響，或者不是，所以我想首先問你，美國的經濟停滯和不平等在多大程度上解釋了特朗普的崛起和持續突出地位，你認為這些相互競爭的美國自由觀念在這次選舉中有多重要，是的，首先，能來到這裏，在這麽漂亮的房間裏，能再次和大家在一起，我真是太好了，我想，我寫這本書的部分原因是，我認為自由問題會在這場運動中扮演重要角色，我的出版商在五個月內幫助我出版了這本書，這對出版商來說很不尋常，因為他們知道這場運動，而且自由問題可能會發揮作用，你說得很好，我在書中表達的自由觀是做某事的自由，所以瀕臨饑餓的人實際上沒有任何自由去做任何事情，他隻能做他必須做的事情來生存，在我看來，民主的很多方麵都是提高個人做事的能力，讓他們發揮自己的潛力，我認為最重要的自由是生活的自由the most important Freedom the freedom to live

What's happening in the United States? | Joseph Stiglitz Speaking Tour - Sydney

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WNbsV7jVHA
The Australia Institute 2024年8月14日

Nobel Prize-winning economist Professor Joseph Stiglitz, in conversation with the Hon. Malcolm Turnbull AC, 29th Prime Minister of Australia & Dr Emma Shortis, senior researcher International & Security Affairs at the Australia Institute on the future of Australia's relationship with the United States.

Professor Joseph Stiglitz is visiting Australia as a guest of the Australia Institute, as part of our 30th anniversary celebrations in 2024.

[Applause]
oh welcome everybody I'm Richard Dennis executive director of the Australia Institute and what a what a wonderful
room to have such a wonderful conversation in tonight so uh I'll be back in a minute to talk to you but uh
let me first start by welcoming and what I'd like you all to do is turn your phones off I I organized
that seamlessly for the prompt uh but I'm just really honored to introduce Uncle Michael west from the Metropolitan
local Aboriginal land Council he's born and raised and lived his whole life here in Sydney's Aboriginal communities he's
a member of the stolen generations and if you want to know more about him uh he'll tell you a bit about his journey
tonight um Michael's had a various a variety of previous roles including a director of New South Wales indigenous
Chamber of Commerce uh a director of The Strain Communications consumer Action Network and co-chair of national sorry
Day committee so please join me in welcoming Uncle [Applause] [Music]
Michael how's everyone looking forward to this talk no doubt I'm looking forward to it too um I
was uh talking to someone from the library as I was driving here and about the subject tonight what's happening in
the united stat what's not happening one might say yes I mean it's been about Crazy 8
years or whatever hasn't it um when you think about it um yes um the pandemic
telling people to inject yourself a bleach probably not a good idea and then you see the health
officials shocked in the background and then you have to put warnings out St um Countrywide please don't inject yourself
or drink bleach it's not a solution um yes I was going to say here where we
are's beautiful gatle country and we have the most beautiful Harbor in the world don't we we're lucky to have that
and um what I was going to say I I talk about here where we are is gadigal
obviously cam regle's the other side of the code hanger we have wangal as we head Inland on our left if we're
paddling out there um on our right Walla migle obviously rers and vanal Along being a a partner of a strong camaga
woman named bangaroo um where we have a piece of land named after her and we also have where the opera house named
after balong where he had his place and then we keep going we have param which is bar
in our language we have the so um other languages have that too the Welsh language so bar means e and there's a
whole beautiful creation story about Sydney Harbor and the Water waste being created by a giant Bara which is now
just resting off of um East belmain there's a little island called ml or
memo um also known as Goat Island but it's real name is mammal it's some it's
transitioning back to the L Council on a long journey um what I was going to say too is our
totems are very important we lost them a few a few years ago lot billions of them a few years ago um with the fires that
we had those um firestorms and um our totems are very important to us Wales would come in here
is part of the totems of the gigle there's also engraving over at the um coal loader beautiful whale engraving
and they would have different names the whale will have different names up and down the coast as it's journeying with
their little calves and they would actually come in here to gomra which is darling Harbor for their rest but
unfortunately they can't um they got the boat show down there this there now but and other things but I would I I was
thinking about that the other day wouldn't it be great if they come in here and rest but they can't anymore but
they do come in and visit I'm sure it's in their memory over many many Millennia coming in here and um I was going to say
there's a there's a beautiful bird that's um has uh white feathers black
tail feathers it has a long neck and a long beak um it's called The Sacred Ibis
uh don't call me a Ben chicken thanks I'm the sacred IUS just as an Egyptian culture has the sacred IIs it's very
important to remember that and it actually I was talking to some of the other Elders the other day and we having a conversation about this it actually
has a parallel with abigal people when you think about it what do you think that
is cuz it's been dispossessed of its country it's it's a wetland bird it's a
beautiful bird um it's kept me sane through the pandemic I could go out and see a little community of them probably
to the to the wall there and um seeing them their little babies and I was I think because I respect them and that
I've been lucky privileged to see one of their um young ones with a very small beak in my front yard and the parents
looking after it cuz they are monogamous and um what I was going to say they may
be going through bins and they may look a little bit dirty but it's not their fault it's actually on the humans fault cuz we haven't cared for their country
and they're just trying to survive and um and as I said look they've been
dispossessed of their land we have of ours and um they've been blamed for their situation as so as we so we need
to be intelligence humans and intelligence Australians and um make
sure that we have a a proper Road forward in reconciliation and um we can
do better we're a very rich first world country and we have people living in third world conditions and we can do a lot better I
know there was the referendum last year didn't go the way original people wanted but we had 6 and a half million people
vote for us um there's a lot more education to be done a lot more truth telling I think and that'll change
people's minds and change people's heart and um what I was going to say it's important we take a moment silence to
pay respects to ancestors pay respect to Mother Earth um pay respect to those who've lost along the way they're not
just numbers they're people who have their own dreams their own families their own communities their own names and then also uh it's important to pay
respect to all ABS TOS rad on tradish owners elders and custodians of past and present for looking after country spirit
of country and culture and as an Australian you have responsibly look after that um we have those 40,000 year
old fish traps in New South Wales at bar and the 40,000 plus year old burial
sites with men and women with um ceremony andoko and that so um
if we have a moment's silence a moment of paying respect the moment of reflection Journey here right now and a
moment of centering
ourselves we have those three beautiful Rivers Don't We that are boundaries of the oration we have the Hawks spre nepan
and Georges um on behalf of Metropolitan local Abal land Council our elders and our members welcome everyone here
tonight I'm sure it's going to be a very interesting conversation um yes what does the future
hold I guess Turn the Page um yes and uh we'd like to say look everyone let's all
work and walk together and have those honest conversations and Truth telling that we need to and um being here I was
actually here for this library for this Auditorium opening and um I've been here
many times and I think when I come to the State Library here uh there's a lot
it was a place where original people I guess were also um not included and there's some sensitive material here but
what's great about the State Library I know the last year we opened up a special room for Abal toyr onto people
uh that could go there and read material um in a sensitive and culturally Safe Way and that's what we've got to do be
sensible um understand each other's culture and we want you to also remain
strong in your identity in your culture it's so important I think we've learned that the last few years through this pandemic um always was always will be AB
your land never seated um let's all respect each other let's respect the animals let's respect the IIs and let's
respect um if they had a bit more respect I think around the world in some of the places where we see um and a bit
more love in their hearts I think would be uh we'd have a far better World wouldn't we um maybe some of them some
of the people need a big hug too I think I think they do um enjoy the night and
I'm sure it's going to be an interesting conversation um I'm sort of a bit scared
and looking forward to what the future holds in America thank [Applause]
[Music]
you thank you so much Michael and again thanks everyone for coming along it's a it's a really special night for us at
the Australia Institute our 30th Anniversary this year 30 years of uh trying to put Big Ideas uh into
Australia's national debate and uh a night like tonight uh is is just a
wonderful way to both do that and to celebrate that so uh so thank you to to
everyone for coming along tonight thanks to our donors in the room uh look around and look at all the other people that uh
uh that are here listening thanks to you so I really appreciate it and uh and tonight uh and indeed Professor stig's
uh trip is in part supported by the uh Andrew faren foundation so very thank
you very much to Andrew Look let me get straight down to business there's going to be I reckon a bit to talk about
tonight uh our our our first guest is of course Professor Joseph stiglets uh Joe
is former Chief Economist at the World Bank Nobel prize winning Economist uh chair of the US Council of Economics
advisor under advisors under President Bill Clinton Joe's uh professor of
Economics at Columbia University business school and to say he's had an
impact on the economics community and indeed the economics debate is just an incredible understatement so uh can we
start with just welcoming Professor
[Music] s Joe was only out here two years ago uh
as a guest of the Australian Institute it's just amazing to have him back again um our next guest tonight is of course
Malcolm turble um uh Malcolm was our 29th prime minister had a career in law
and business and the media before going into politics uh obviously uh Malcolm's
had some interesting engagements with the us over the years which I suspect might even be discussed tonight uh
including having negotiated with President Obama uh a deal to take refugees to the US one that President
Trump of course had some views about um and of course Malcolm also played a role
in Reviving The transpacific partnership or the TPP as it was called after the United States withdrew which if we think
about it given Donald Trump's approach to trade at the moment uh there's some
history repeating itself there so can we please join Malcolm turble for speaking [Applause]
tonight it's really an honor to have you here thank you Malcolm and then finally uh Dr Emma shis is leads our
International Security Affairs program at the Australia Institute Emma's an historian a writer uh she's written a
wonderful book about Australia's relationship with America called our exceptional friend Australia's fatal
alliance with the United States uh and EM was also uh just started a new
podcast series that were produced at the Australian Institute called after America um so I guess it depends on the
election result what that means uh anyway Emma will be uh will be taking
Joe and Malcolm through a conversation tonight so with no further Ado over to you Dr Emma shes thank you thank you
Richard um not much to talk about I think we'll struggle to fill the
time we we here in Australia have of course been watching this election cycle
in the United States with a growing sense of unease I think as Michael said we're we're all a little bit scared
Perhaps Perhaps that has been tempered a little bit in the last week or so um with the joy and enthusiasm that seems
to have infused the Harris campaign for the nomination but the fundamental truth of
those real and active threats to American democracy and the shared values
that underpin our relationship with the United States those fundamental threats remain and they are very real
so we're here to think about the state of the alliance the implications of the election for us and for the world and I
think you know if nothing else it's clear here that that Trump unites thinking people all over the world and
there I hope I hope there is an opportunity here
in that for those new alliances to grow for new thinking here in Australia about our most important security relationship
and our role in the world but we have to start of course in the United States how could we not Joe your new book is called
the road to freedom and the campaign the election campaign now seems to be increasingly about competing ideas of
Freedom that's even been given musical form by the campaigns so so Trump will
at his rallies often come on stage to a song called God Bless the USA and and the kind of triumphal line in that is
I'd rather be an American because at least I know I'm free so the very kind of negative individualistic perception
of Freedom Harris on the other hand has just released her first uh campaign ad
which has Beyonce's Freedom as the soundtrack The Beyonce song Freedom which is a big deal Beyonce doesn't let
many people use her songs and the line is that is I need Freedom too I need
Freedom too now your book focuses on the relationship between freedom and
inequality our perception of freedom and how that's perhaps informed or Not by inequality so I wanted to begin by
asking you how much economic stag stagnation and inequality in the United
States explains the rise and and the continued prominence of trump and and how important you think those competing
ideas of freedom in America will be in this election yeah well first it's so
wonderful to be here and to be in such a beautiful room and and to be uh with all
of you again um I think uh the I wrote
the book partly uh because I thought the issue of Freedom would be a big one in
the campaign and uh my publisher was uh uh very helpful in getting the book out
in about five months which is very unusual for for a publisher because they
were aware you know of of the campaign and that uh this issue of Freedom uh
would potentially play a role and you put it well saying uh the the view of
Freedom that I articulate in the book is is freedom to do something so somebody
who's on a point of starvation really doesn't have any freedom to do anything he does what he has to do to survive and
that um a lot of what I view is a democratic agender
has been to enhance individuals capacity to do things they you know to live up to
their potential um to have uh uh you know
consider the most important Freedom the freedom to live uh if you
don't uh uh if we hadn't had the vaccine uh from covid-19 many of us
might not be here and our freedom would have been taken away and uh that needed
government to do the basic research of developing a uh mRNA platform and
bringing the drug to Market and that enhanced our freedom but having that freedom
meant uh we had to pay taxes to support that so you took away a little freedom
but overall as you look at that enh taking away a little Freedom by saying
you have to pay a little bit of taxes is uh di Minimus relative to the freedom to
live and that sort of model is really uh all over uh if you want to think of
another example um the uh that I talk about in my book is um stop likes
traffic likes uh take away your freedom you can't move until you have a green
light but if you live in a place like New York or London or Sydney if you
didn't have any stop likes you would have grock and nobody could move so a
little bit of restriction of freedom to say you have to take terms actually gives everybody more freedom than they
otherwise would have had so the the notion is in a in in our uh complicated
integrated Society where we interact all together we have to understand that one
person's Freedom can be another person's unfreedom and that we have a collective
decision to make in balancing these freedoms it's not obvious in some cases it's not obvious how you balance it but
in the examples I've just given it's pretty obvious and so what I think uh
the Democratic vision is that that we ought to have uh intelligent debates
about this and some cases will'll be easy and other cases we may not fully
agree and we those will be continued part of the elector process but that the
Republican view doesn't make any sense that to put it
bluntly uh that uh you know even the notion you know some of this outside the
United States should seem obvious um the freedom to carry a
gun uh means that you wind up with a country where every little kid has to in
kindergarten and first grade get training what to do if a gunman enters
your your your classroom and so they lose a basic freedom freedom from
fear and so many of them every day lose their lives because some you know almost
daily there's been a mass shooting so again you're taking away the freedom to live which is the most important Freedom
so my view is that this and I wrote the book because I thought the Republican
concept of absolute freedom makes absolutely no sense and that I'm trying
to promote here A A broader view of of that concept now whether
the debate will get uh elevated to the level where they they that kind of discourse I don't know I'm not sure I
think it may be in much more you know especially with Trump and Vance running
it may be a much more Elemental discussion than a discussion of the kind
I've just described I think Sor unfortunately Malcolm turning turning
now to Australia in in the context of Joe's comments and the rise of trump and
Vance and and the very clear threat that they to American Democratic institutions
which they've reminded us again Trump has just reminded Us in the last 24 hours by telling a group of Christian
nationalists to get out and vote they need to vote this time and then in four years they they won't need to again you
know so he's not he's not hiding the ball shall we say there has been a a quite a
conversation in Australia about how we might and our government in particular might approach a second Trump
Administration in in the context of of that threat and there there have been several kind of moments in the recent
history of that discussion that have degenerated into quite a kind of fical
discussion so the one that stands out to me is when uh Nigel farage interviewed Donald Trump and you know made those
comments about Kev Ambassador Kevin rud you know when Donald Trump clearly didn't know who he was talking about but
made a few comments and the Australian media exploded about how you know how
would this Ambassador who's criticized Donald Trump be able to do his job during a second Trump Administration but
what was what was lost in all of that that the criticisms rud had made were about the threat that Donald Trump posed
to American democracy and there wasn't much that I saw at least in the coverage
of that arguing that actually that's what our ambassador should be doing they should be standing up for the Integrity
of American democracy and be proud particularly of American Democratic Values so in in that context and and the
discussion that we are having about the alliance now here in Australia what do you think Australia's
interests are in the alliance well I mean the United States
is our major Ally in a you a you know military defense context but also our ties to the
United States our connections are you know so numerous you know they they're
complex it's families it's cultural it's business it's historical there are so
many um and but here's the thing just pivoting
to the politics of it there is a tendency in Australian
politics to want to outdo each other in sucking up to the Americans
and and I have to say it is it is it's it's by and large bipartisan um uh the
um I don't I won't go through all the cringeworthy examples but
um I've I've I mean there some people like Lori there who've known me for a
long time uh I've never been very good at sucking up to people I have to say
but but um and I and I don't think I'll develop a interest in it in my old age
but I think people forget Australians forget that in the imperial capital they
regard difference as their due so if you go to Washington or indeed to Beijing or
in the old days to London and you you know groble and Carry
On and suck up they just say oh that's great is it time for the next siant Sur
surely he's had his surely he's had his 10 minutes of sucking up it is crazy you
win no respect at all and of course with Trump who is like the ultimate narcissistic you know blustering bully
it is the worst possible thing to do now I was very lucky with Trump in this
sense that I my first engagement with him or enragement with him to use a uh
Joe diglet fabulous Joe diglet word that he often uses about Fox News uh was uh
uh over a over this you know I mean all these everyone here knows about it was you know over a deal I'd done with Obama
that Trump wanted to reene on anyway and we had a Hu blazing R where I basically
said you've got to stick to your word you know and Trump said come on Malcolm you know you're a businessman you must
have reneged on Deal said no no no he did he did that's exact exactly
what he said said no no I said ask your friends we've got friends in common I'm you know my of you know my reputation is
being a man of my word I've got lots of other bad things people say about me but people generally haven't said that I'm
untrustworthy in that regard so so I've made this point to Trump anyway and he so the conversation began no way Jose
and ended up yes I hate you yes but I hate you basically so he did he said it was he said the call was worse than the
one he had with Putin although as I later learned when I saw them together he really loves Putin
so so it's a bit complex but the point is by standing up to Trump and not you
know doing what i' what they were American side were back you know back channeling us to not raise the issue I
won his respect and I was able to get some very good outcomes for Australia and so you know I you read all
this stuff particularly in the Murdoch press about how you've got to have an ambassador that sucks up to Trump and
you've got to flatter him that is all believe me I mean I I promise
you there are a lot of leaders at the time Trump came in who did exactly that and they got
nothing the you know the only way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them
and the thing that an Australian prime minister knows when they go into a room
with an American president is that they're the one person in the White House the president can't
fire so all his staff all his staff they've all got it theyve got to be
careful because the boss can go oh I'm sick of you telling me what I don't want to hear you're out okay and that's what
Trump does but if you're the Prime Minister of Australia the only people that can sack you are your colleagues
back home which of course you know I'm I'm very familiar I'm very familiar with
the process but the but the but so it's really important it's really important
for uh Australia to engage uh you know from a position of strength I mean you
do there is a complexity there I'll just conclude on this point that albanesi has to recognize and I had to too that the
sort of right-wing media ecosystem here Mo mostly News Corp but not entirely um is basically Trump is at now
the central sort of Avatar of that of that universe and so if an austr so they
you know disagreement between austral Australian prime minister and Donald Trump they will side with Trump yeah so
but that's but that is no reason to do anything other than be absolutely strong
Play Straight bat and of course needless to say the last thing uh and I look I
Trump got really bad press when he when he had this tantrum with me it really
did not help him and I think he was very conscious of that um uh as far as our
ambassador you know our the Australian government appoints the Australian ambassador to Washington and
just like the American government points the American ambassador to cber and uh the idea that you'd be uh taking
direction from the white houses to who our ambassador should be I mean declaring an ambassador Persona nonr is
a big deal that's the kind of thing you do to the you know the Russians when they're spying on you or something so
that isn't going to happen so you know albow whatever people think of Kevin and
you know I've had an up and down relationship with him we're currently in love again you know
but it's been it's been sort of it's been patchy I'd have to say uh but uh but the alvany should stick stick with
Rod and you know and he'll you know and and just be very strong and play a straight bat that's what he's got to
do we we'll come back to much of that I think um Joe I think it it's fairly safe
to say that a hypothetical second Trump Administration would be quite different from the first given given what we know
of of the plans you know behind his campaign given that and and given the
polling you know given it still certainly possible that that Trump could win how do you think Americans should be
preserving and strength strengthening their own Democratic institutions and and do countries like
Australia have a role to play in that yeah so uh we're all praying uh and
and uh I am very hopeful uh by uh what's happened in the last last week and and
uh you know she's uh Kema is clear a good campaigner so um
but I think uh your question is really on spot the the the uh it's it's very
clear that there's a fragility to our to to our democracy and uh I think
uh there are several aspects of what has been happening that are institutional
and then there are some that are related to policy so institutionally I think you know when we were uh kids we were taught
that our Founders 200 and some years ago in uh
1789 uh got a message from heaven and figured out how to design the uh optimal
democratic system and we now know that they didn't quite get it all right and
you know it it was a step forward from where they had been and not that that much you know there have been some
thinking uh about how do you create Democratic institutions but they hadn't got it uh quite right and I think um
Australia has done uh a number of things that I think are are uh better in terms
of of uh Democratic uh institutions one of them is uh mandatory
voting um I I I think
that's uh the second one is what we call rank order voting you have another name
called preferential preferential voting um and if the US had had rank order
voting Trump would not have been on the ballot in the first uh election in
2016 it's that failure that led him to be on uh to be a candidate uh and and a
lot of the the outcomes uh that we've had that are so perverse in so many
districts of the extreme right would not have existed and it would have changed
the the party Dynamics inside the United States so rank order uh voting is a is a
second important uh thing uh third uh I
I think that um uh first post first pass
the post institutions uh especially in the context of uh a country where you can
have um uh uh change the
districts um in in ways that you can 25%
can get 50% of the votes 50% of the seats in in the uh uh
uh parliament in Congress so um Jerry mandering is really
rampant and um you know another flaw we
have not to list all the flaws uh the Supreme Court in the United States has
uh some obvious uh problems but one example in this context it is said uh it
said that it it Jerry mandering was not necessarily a
bad thing and it delegated responsibility for overseeing whether it
was to the stakes where there's gerrymandering so it it said Jerry
Mander Stakes should decide whether Jerry mandering is a bad thing well uh
you know it was such an absurd decision that really you know called into question the logic uh of of of the
Supreme Court so I mean I think those are all examples of you know we were
talking before that that Jerry manding doesn't you know the how you allocate
you can design institutions that are uh rise above politics and in designing the
districts and uh uh it's not something that can't be solved and you've solved
it uh so to me or I mean that done a lot better than we have so so I guess what
what I'm saying is all those are examples of things on on Democratic um process Democratic
institutions where where I think that that uh we have something to learn from
Australia on on the policy side um I
think what and this relates to your first question that I didn't fully answer um I think the uh fact that we've
allowed inequality to grow to the extent that it has has
uh provided a fertile field for populism and particularly for
the authoritarian version of populism it it wasn't inevitable but uh it it
created a fertile uh field and we were just very unlucky to have uh Donald
Trump arise uh at that moment and uh it
you know I I don't think it was inevitable but maybe there was a a high likelihood that somebody like him would
arise and and present the kinds of problems that we now have yeah
absolutely um I suppose to just continue that Malcolm of course you mentioned Fox
News and and we've talked about misinformation a little bit and and by far I think the most important and
influential person in Australia's relationship with the United States is of course rert Murdoch there have been
stories in the um there's a story in the New York Times this week about his maneuvering to keep his Empire his media
Empire in Fox News in particular as a that conservative Bastion after he dies
and and that story which I I highly recommend you read bury the lead a little bit in that it had a line in
there about how former Trump attorney general Bill bar is the one leading that charge to to keep that um Empire
conservative um would you speak a little bit I think about the
the danger of of that Murdoch Empire to democracy and and the critical role that
media as an inst ution should play in in Dem democracies yeah well I I I don't
think there's a anyone alive that has done any individual person alive who's done more damage to the United States
than ripert Murdoch uh I think the uh um and in some I think he's done more
damage to the United States than he has to Australia frankly partly because of the reasons Joe described that we've got
a a political electoral system which all the features which Joe related you know
no Jerry mandering preferential voting compulsory voting we've had for 100 years so there's literally nobody alive
today can take credit for it's amazing uh and uh but someone someone would try
to No Doubt uh but uh but the but the point is I mean you know what M Murdoch
is in the Ang attainment business and he is as Joe great word of Joe's I used it
before he doesn't just his media doesn't engage with its audience it enrages its audience that's what it's designed to do
rile people up and it's that that's their business model and so you saw that
the business model extends to lying so we saw that I mean the reason they shelled out nearly 900 million Us in
Damages in the Dominion voting machine case was because it was demonstrated
that they had continued to propagate the lie that the 2020 election had been
stolen when they knew it was a lie because they they believed Their audience wanted to be lied
to and the most consequential lie I would say told in American politics in
modern times I mean it it led to it created the context in which you had an
attempted cetar me you know we shouldn't mince words I mean this was this was not a a
group of innocent tourists who suddenly got a bit riled up stormed the capital
you know they were wanting to find the vice president not so they could reprimand him for his political views
but so they could hang him I mean we shouldn't you know this is this has all been airbrushed out partly by the media
because it's all too horrible to contemplate uh and as far as the the legal case in Nevada well I mean if you
say Trump's arrival and the events relating to him demonstrate that you
know Adam saen and the other writers of West Wing lacked a imagination uh you'd
have to say that this court case demonstrates that the writers of succession lack sufficient imagination
too I mean Rupert's uh you know Family Trust basically leaves his four children
uh uh by his first wife and his second wife but not the the um the two youngest
ones uh the four TR so the two women prudence and Elizabeth and the sons Lan
and James have basically got an equal say uh and Rupert's trying to get that
trust altered this uh unalterable trust so that lan can be assured of being
solely in charge and his argument for doing so says only lan can be relied
upon to keep Fox News in particular as
hard right conservative as Rupert says it should be
and his argument I think is so specious but who knows I mean as I said they've
got the former Attorney General making it for them his argument is that that's in the best interest of the other
children because that is how they make the most money so in other words in
other words the proposition is the proposition is it you know the the I
mean lawyers will say anything for money I suppose but they but you but the proposition is they've got to stand up
and say for a straight face you're on a uh it is in the interests of my
opponents that my client Lan has sole control of this and is able to freely
Pander to Prejudice anger and resentment and to freely tell
lies because that's what the audience wants and so we need the court to ensure
that under some bizarre sense of responsibility your idealism these other children of Mr
Murdoch don't try to influence these media Outlets to tell the
truth or present a what could be termed reality-based
news and that is literally that is the argument that's being prevent presented in Nevada and so it just reminds you of
the wisdom of uh Mark Twain when he said um only fiction has to be credible
Jo we we've spoken quite a bit about the implications of the election um
domestically uh in terms of media um and for Australia but of course there are
Global implications um for for everybody else and and one of the few areas it
seems of bipartisan consensus now in the United States is around China and the
the American approach to China China so Biden has pursued some quite protectionist policies when it comes to
uh China and we know that Trump and JD Vance in particular have quite
belligerent views of of China as um particularly JD Vance China as
existential threat that that must be counted and some of the architecture behind that campaign even calls for
complete economic decoupling with China so a has some fairly radical
implications for the rest of the world a alongside the potential dismantling of the Global Financial
system minor things is is the age of of free trade
over and and what might that mean for the rest of the world well I I think the age of free
trade is over um the more broadly neoliberalism as a was known it it it
had a 40-year Reign bad idea lasted a
long time uh but I think I think I think it is over and uh ex been killed in in
some ways bipartisan um the um um in a way um
uh the US uh taking the role uh bipartisan again of not appointing
judges to the W WTO meant that disputes were not can't be resolved and the
argument that the US uh basically has is uh this court that
we uh put in to resolve disputes has
found us guilty and therefore it's illegitimate and so we have to end the
court and get a court that always rules in favor of us and uh the other
countries in the world are not so sure that they agree that this is the the right way of running a court system so
um there is a fundamental problem I think uh at the WTO uh the uh from the point of view of
a lot of developing countries Emerging Markets um the US position I think uh
for good reason of for uh of of having industrial
policies uh that for 40 years the US criticized other countries for having
industrial policies all of the sudden we're spending you know the IRA is now
estimated to be over $1 trillion doll and I don't know if you guys know that
it's a big that's a lot of money uh even even in Australia I think um and uh the
chips and science Act is another uh $250 billion so so us has massive industrial
policies and um other countries even Europe is saying we can't we can't match those
subsidies and we say well that's your problem uh so the whole architecture of
of prade has really been upended and and it it is uh bi bipartisan and uh
uh it's not going to be easy to put together again but let me say that
there's a there is a very big difference between Trump and the Democrats on uh
attitudes towards China and attitudes towards globalization more
generally uh I think the Democrats uh
understand that you need Global cooperation to address Global issues like climate
change and pandemics we you know we don't the Democrats uh know that climate
change is a global issue that's a reality pandemics we've had a one
pandemic everybody believes that we'll have another one and we will need
cooperation and so um the Democrats are trying to dance
a a a very difficult uh line here where
they um are being quite hon you know
very harsh with China uh but want China to
cooperate uh on issues like pandemics and climate change and whether that will
work out is is hard to see but uh they say we're only going to impose a 10%
tariff on China and um uh uh Trump says
he's going to impose a 50% uh tariff and
part of the balancing that the Democrats are doing is not only how it will affect
global cooperation but also what it will do to the economy to to inflation and
and 50% is viewed to be you know that's a shock to the system 10% our system can
can adapt to so while while the're both they're both taking strong stances on
China and uh not uh for anything that
China so far has done so far but because
they worry that China will do something and China you know president X said he's
going to take over Taiwan and we think that's not a good thing so he's announced that he's going to do
something so there's a legitimate reason for us to to be concerned and to I think
to engage in drisking um the the the the
intensity in both parties but especially in the Republicans is hard to justify is Malcolm speaking of drisking
and a lot of money does all of the particularly Joe's
comments about China does all of this mean that the Australian government should still be pursuing the or orcus
submarine PCT well well that's uh yeah I well let
me no I'm just I'm just I I think the the pillar one of orcus which is which
is really what it's is the main thing you know which is about the submarines I think was a catastrophic decision um uh
that Morrison made and I think um I think it was a I think it was um a
terrible shame that albanesi and the labor party went along with it and uh
and look I I just just explain the the my my reasoning for that and it's really got this has got nothing to do with my
critique has got nothing to do with China um the the proposition
was uh Morrison's proposition was which albanes adopted was to acquire uh
submarines which had nuclear propulsion and you know the argument for that is they can stay underwater for longer and
well they can basically stay under water pretty much forever as long as the the crew's got enough to you know baked
beans to eat or whatever but but it is but so it's really it's their endurance is limited by the endurance of the crew
not the you know they don't need to come to the surface to recharge their batteries Etc you I guess everyone
understands that but the the the fundamental problem with this is that
this represents an complete abandonment of Australian sovereignty now I have to
say I was you know I was Prime Minister of Australia and I don't think I mean when I was PM when Abbott was PM as far
as I know when rod and Gillard were PM Howard was PM Australian sovereignty was really
important uh and but it doesn't seem to be important in the way it used to be
you see basically the reason we did not opt for
Naval nuclear propulsion in the partnership we had with France which we were completely in control of we were
building sub going to build the subs in Australia we had all the technology had been transferred Etc had been a thorough
you know bureaucratic process assessing you know which which contended to go for
uh the reason we hadn't gone for Naval nuclear propulsion was because we don't have a nuclear industry in Australia and
and it would take us many years to be able to manage Naval nuclear propulsion
ourselves uh so we could have we could have you know uh evolved to that in
partnership with France because France's submarines are in fact uh do use nuclear
reactors to P them but interestingly they do not use weapons grade uranium in
them they use what's called Low enriched uranium which is enriched to the same level as that you'd find in a civilian
Power Station uh so in that sense it's it's much more manageable but the problem
with the orcus pillar one deal is that as you know we are supposed to be getting uh Virginia class submarines in
the early 2030s from the Americans uh three pop to five
and then at some point in the 2040s an as yet undesigned nuclear powered submarine
will be built in partnership with Britain but that is like that's so far off it's you know it is way way way off
I do not believe we will ever get any nuclear submarines from the Americans uh and the reason for that has got nothing
to do with Donald Trump this is why the deal is so bad because we have no agency we have no we've got no Leverage
essentially in the United States Navy the most valuable strategic assets are
their Virginia class submarines their attack submarines called ssns and they are valuable because of
their lethality but also their survivability as you've observed from the you know experience of the Russian
Navy in the Black Sea surface vessels are more vulnerable than ever so what do we know about the
virginas the American Navy is short at between 17 and 20 short of what they believe they
need their industry is producing half as many as they
need it is the most valuable and survivable asset and the
legislation relating to this deal the American legislation says that before any submarine can be sold to Australia
the US president has to certify that their Navy doesn't need it
competitive rivalry with China is increasing so you know what what's Trump
got on on on the tin you know America first and that's what and you know I I'm
sure you know I'm not the only former politician here tonight you know as Paul keading once said in the great race of
life always backs self-interest because you know it's trying and that applies that that that applies in politics more
than anywhere else and so the reality is we won't get yet the Americans will not
part with the Virginia class submarines they will and they'll say nothing they saying you aies you took the risk you
saw the legislation we can only give them to you if uh we don't need them and
so what we are going to end up doing is apparently continue sending billions of dollars to the Americans to support the
submarine industrial boat we are we are we're sending billions of dollars over there to their industrial base we're
building a nuclear submarine base in Perth which out of which American
submarines will rotate I think there'll be lots of young Australian Sailors will serve on American submarines but we will
not have any subs and the the that is a scenario that is being actively you can
read all about it in the Congressional Research Services paper on orcus it's uh sort of called a a you know military
partnership and the proposition is that Australia has no submarines at all uh the Americans look after us and we spend
money that we would have otherwise spent on submarines and something else so this great submarine deal in my judgment is
almost most certainly going to result in us having no submarines it is a it's a terrible terrible mistake uh but uh it
is um everyone calls for bipartisanship and politics but sometimes if people are
bipartisan in their era it's not a good thing
[Applause] Joe I think this might have to be my
final question but in here in Australia there there has been for a long time this bipartisan consensus that our
relationship with the United States is necessary for our security so the the Orca submarine deal is is part of that
that you know it is absolutely necessary to protect Australia from threat I and
others would would argue that actually more often than not Australia's relationship ship with the United States makes us less safe and I I wonder how do
you think particularly in the context of of your book how do you think countries
like Australia can keep ourselves and and others safe where where does
security really come from well I I guess I I'd say um there
is uh conflict in the world you know and and and uh we thought uh there would
never be a land war in Europe and we Russia invaded uh
Ukraine um uh China has not uh uh been
aggressive uh outside very aggressive outside its boundaries but but it has
announced as I said before that it's going to take over Taiwan I don't think it probably is going to reach down to
Australia but but one never knows how you know over the long run how how these
things evolve uh but I do think there's a there is a a fundamental conflict between
democracies broadly understood and fragile as they may be uh and these
authoritarian regimes and uh so I think there is a need for collective
security and um you know I was uh somewhat skeptical
about the expansion of NATO in Europe whether it was uh threatening to Russia
and whether that was would provoke Russia after seeing what Russia did I
I'm very convinced that they would have done that whether we had encircled them or not and that uh
Estonia laia uh Lithuania are really glad they joined uh and Poland and we
are too that they're really that that that NATO expanded and I think that um
you know why should you might say that kind of Alliance be limited to the Atlantic it's really now a
global a global issue so I do think that we need Global Security Arrangements you
know is as yeah um again I I i' in the past I was very critical of us uh
spending on Military uh and I still am uh critical
of the way we spend it you know I've said we we we were spending money uh on
weapons that didn't work against enemies that didn't exist um and uh uh we were
spending uh a lot of money on weapons that didn't work but now I realize that
that there are enemies that do exist and that we unfortunately do need to have
military uh spending and there there is a real need for Global cooperation on
security um uh but uh it is also the case that um
especially with Trump um as uh Malcolm said uh he doesn't
believe agreements uh have any you know a contract is just a piece of paper that
you sign and and uh hopefully you dup the other guy uh and and you know he
part he expects you to to break the contract and so he doesn't feel guilty
when he breaks it because he believed that you that you knew that he was going to break
it so uh so that means that you live in a world actually without contracts and
with and globally one of the big differences between domestics domestic
life and international life there's no real enforcement of contracts uh
internationally and that reality is something one really has to understand
and it means that to some extent uh it's always going to be uh
enforcement is going to be limited to self-interest but when you have good
leaders it's self-interested broadly understood to mean that you're going to be going on in a long-term relationship
and the nature of trump is that he doesn't understand that broad he's
transactional it's it's only for the moment and it's no long you know there's no long term so um I think you
if God forbid Trump got elected you you have to deal with that reality of of
that kind of of uh world but over the long term hopefully America will have
leaders that understand this the nature of what I've just
described and uh Australia and the rest of the
Free World uh can can and uh
develop relationships that are based on that kind of global
cooperation um and let me just say one more thing uh which is we've been
fighting um this kind of new Cold War without paying any attention to most
of the third world to the Emerging Markets or developing countries and
actually undertaking policies that are really adverse to them and
actually you know couldn't be worse policies for losing that that that war so for
instance during the pandemic uh we had policies that led to
vaccine aparte um we used the
WTO it it was become it was dysfunction except for one thing the role that the
WTO played in denying access to vaccines to poor
countries um and so that is the great achievement of our International Trade architecture um so so I think and and
you know I could give you other examples that that right now there's a big discussion going on about reforming the
multinational um uh tax system and and the oecd has made a
proposal that in effect uh
reinforces the the uh fact that the digital Giants will not
be taxed and deprives the countries where production is occurring from
getting the revenue that they ought to be getting and the developing countries
have have said we ought to move it the discussion out of the oecd where it's been captured by by big corporations and
move it into the UN may not succeed there but we know it's failed at the
oecd two-thirds of the country of the world uh said yes we should move the
discussion to the UN it's going to happen but the US used all of its muscle
to twist the arms of other countries
to oppose this so you know we lost we
used a lot of intellect a lot of a lot of capital in losing and we're not
winning the Cold War so I find it just unbelievable and this
is under a democratic Administration so you could imagine how bad it's going to be under Republican
Administration um so what what I think is to go back to your question I do
think there needs to be Global cooperation but I think we have to view this question from a global perspective
yeah absolutely um unfortunately I think we might be out of time we could keep going for hours I
know um but I will hand over to to Richard now thank you
thanks everyone you beat me to it I was going to ask you to give them a round of applause which I will in a minute but um
well what a night um and uh thank you all I mean at the Australia Institute we
been having a bit of planning and the lead up to the election and Emma and myself and a few others been coming coming up with some s of key themes that
we want to focus on and really what's really important uh and the number one
thing that came out of our discussions in terms of the how we keep our feet on the ground and what we're aiming for was
that Australia matters and then the second one is that government policy matters and I just
think you know hearing Malcolm tonight talking about the need for the Australian government the Australian
Ambassador whoever it is to to stand up for Australians I think it's terrifying
that we as a nation might ever think that we don't have agency in the world
we don't have control but we absolutely have agency and uh Australia's GDP is a
about the size of a little European country called Russia but we're not quite as optimistic
in our foreign policy thank God for that no and and in part this is because
of our sense of self our s and of course you know we need to have powerful allies we need strong allies strong
relationships but the idea that we can't kind of sail the choppy Seas without someone else is not something that
bothers Putin at night it seems uh so I'm not in any way pushing for an expansionist Australia but no
it's important that we understand that we're not a little country we've got a continent uh we we the 13th largest
economy in the world where the largest ex our our share of the iron oril Market
is bigger than opec's share of oil you didn't know that um half of the gas we sell overseas
we paid no royalt we gave away for free right we are
big we have agency and conversations like tonight hopefully challenge us to
think about how how we use that not to control things but to influence things
to shape things including shape our relationship with our close allies like the US and if we can export some of our
electoral architecture to the US rather than export Rupert Murdock
I I think the US would be in much greater shape so uh so again thank you
all for coming tonight please join me in thanking our
guests uh one one over I forgot to mention and my friend Melanie is here
she'll tried me that Joe was also so in introducing him I didn't mention was the winner of the Sydney Peace Prize so well
done Joe um and uh and and Joe's books are for sale out
there tonight if you'd like to get his latest book it is an absolutely banging read but he's not doing signings tonight
we've had him working since 8:00 this morning uh he's speaking at University of Technology tomorrow night uh we've
got a we're taking him around Australia he's got a long trip in front of him but the are for sale outside if you'd like
to get one but you won't get a signature tonight thank you all for coming thank
you thanks for watching if you'd like to keep up to date with all our latest research and work sign up to our
newsletter delivered every fortnite it includes behind the scenes updates from Richard Dennis an exclusive cartoon from
Judy hor details for our upcoming events and webinars as well as explainers
graphs and not to mention the latest Cutting Edge research and Analysis from the team here here on the key issues
that are facing Australia click the button on your screen to check it out