雅美之途
教育，人文，社會
美國仍然遵循著開國元勳所向往的傳統，他們當年冒死打仗的目的是為了自己未來的兒子或孫子能夠做文學、學建築或談政治。當我們審查美國人文領域的著名人物，或者那些中國問題專家，我們發現他們多半是成長於美國家境優越的社會階層。
他們包括這位風情萬種的哥大教授黎安友的前妻，Roxane Witke。她在中國文革正濃的1972年，在基辛格和尼克鬆訪華後不久，對中國女皇江青進行了長時間的訪談。
這裏有個數量級的區別與概念，因為社會需求和大學養活他們的成本，在美國成為人文領域的教授比當醫學院的教授要難很多。
Jim Lehrer和Robert MacNeil對Roxane Witke的采訪非常精彩，讓我們可以更全麵地了解那段曆史。
讓我先說些整理後的感言：
中國政治的最大問題是，至今為止仍然沒有找到最高權力的平穩過渡機製。每次高層權力的轉換幾乎都是黑箱操作，總是伴隨著將對手投入監獄的血腥行動。
江青在自己的丈夫毛澤東去世七周後被捕，她最終以77歲的高齡上吊自殺身亡。她見Roxane Witke的1972年處於權力的頂峰，年僅58歲。但是她已經預感自己的權力不會長久，所以急於將她的人生故事通過美國人傳遞出去。
四人幫倒台後，華國鋒作為過渡讓所謂的“好皇帝”鄧小平上台。鄧小平扶持過胡耀邦和趙紫陽作為接班人，但是都因各種原因失敗，即使作為好皇帝的鄧小平也在任內出現了64流血事件。
貓兒上台後將薄熙來和周永康整肅，以及將可能高達百萬級別的對手投入監獄。現在澳門特首見貓兒就像兒子見到嚴父似的，在貓兒會見軍中人士的視頻，他們鼓掌的場景已經與北韓的金三胖視察時相似。貓兒至今沒有接班人浮出水麵，他已經70歲，麵容的浮腫以及虛胖讓人懷疑他的健康。我們不知道在他這個壞皇帝之後，中國何時會出現一個好皇帝。
中國的曆史就是在福山所說的好皇帝與壞皇帝之間循環，如今的美國人已經從理論、立法和行動上都徹底看穿了中國，最近美國又通過國防授權立法將中國和香港與澳門定為“海外敵對勢力”。
最後我想說的是江青的傳奇人生，我們需要以客觀的角度去評價曆史人物。中共最差勁的就是非黑即白，這樣利於他們的統治。
作為山東工匠的女兒，她在家鄉就加入共產黨。她去上海當演員謀生，同時在基督教與共產主義文化中做選擇。她最終決定拋棄十裏洋場的奢靡演藝生活，去延安投奔革命。隨後與共黨頭目戀愛，為他生女兒李納傳基因。
在藝術上的天份使她在資深年齡開始學習西洋音樂，還嚐試做交響曲，寫小說故事。我們可以從她創作的中西合壁的樣板戲和芭蕾舞體會到，如果她有留學背景那會更了不起。
在任何開放的社會，江青本來是才女一枚，她擁有極高的天份和領悟力。但是在共產體製內的貪婪控製人的權欲，使她走火入魔地迫害人，最後將自己也玩完了。
皮皮蝦在科技群的留言：“《紅都女皇》作者Roxane Witke當時與江青密談了三天，中途精彩處不忍心打斷江青，硬是把尿憋在褲子裏了。你可能不信，這是我小學五年級知道的，原因是四人幫倒台，中央下達的許多文件裏有一篇關於《紅都女皇》。當時的我就愛看《參考消息》之類。讀博時閑聊，講到這段，有一個同齡的陪讀夫人一臉不信，認為以我那時的年齡，根本不可能，就是吹牛。從此再不和此人見識了。那文件下達到中級幹部的。我得以在家裏偷看，不是《參考消息》上的”
我的回複：“節目說是暑假，實際談了兩三天，投機時從晚上6點談到轉鍾3點。江青急於將自己的信息讓外國人記錄，這樣可以澄明她認為的國內對她的誣陷。你需要找視頻看看，黎安友的前妻本身就是好萊塢級別的人物，gorgeous woman [Worship][ThumbsUp]”
隻能Copy/Paste才能看到：https://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip_507-jd4pk07q0z。這個采訪視頻也讓我們能夠重溫美國新聞從業人員的紳士風采，我在美國的前幾十年就是通過每天觀看Jim Lehrer的PBS了解美國的，他是最棒的我們密蘇裏大學新聞學院的畢業生。
這是Roxane Witke接受采訪的文字內容, 括號裏的中文部分是ChatGPT的功勞，我略有潤色。
ROBERT MACNEIL: Good evening. An incredible thing has happened in China. Only seven weeks after the death of Chairman Mao Tse-tung, the leader revered to the point of deification, his widow, Chiang Ching, has been arrested. It`s almost as though Eleanor Roosevelt had been arrested by the FBI shortly after the death of FDR and charged with treason. Chiang Ching and three other members of the top Chinese leadership are reported under arrest, stripped of their high offices and party positions. Madame Mao is charged with everything from plotting a coup to nagging her husband to death. Why is this woman so important? What is her fate likely to be? That what we consider tonight.
(晚上好。在中國發生了一件不可思議的事情。在備受崇拜甚至尊為神明的領導人毛澤東主席去世僅僅七周後，他的遺孀江青被逮捕了。這就好像埃莉諾·羅斯福在富蘭克林·羅斯福去世後不久，被FBI逮捕並被指控叛國一樣不可思議。據報道，江青和其他三名中國高層領導人被拘留，被剝奪高級職務和黨內職位。毛主席夫人被指控從密謀政變到折磨丈夫致死等罪名。為什麽這個女人如此重要？她的命運可能會怎樣？這是我們今晚要討論的話題)
Jim?
JIM IEHRER: Madame Mao is not that well-known, except within China itself, of course, and outside only among China experts. The person in this country who probably knows more about her than anyone is Roxane Witke, Professor of Modern Chinese History at the State University of New York at Binghamton. Four years ago she spent the summer in China conducting over 60 hours of interviews with Madame Mao. She returned with an exhaustive knowledge of this powerful, mysterious woman as well as a lot of photographs and both have been combined into a book, entitled Comrade Chiang Ching, to be published by Little, Brown this spring.
She has also brought her knowledge and a few of those photographs with her tonight, and she`s now with Robin in New York. Robin?
（JIM IEHRER: “毛夫人在中國以外並不那麽出名，除了中國本身，當然，在中國問題專家中，她倒是比較知名。在我們美國，對她了解最多的人可能就是Roxane Witke了，她是賓漢姆頓紐約州立大學的現代中國曆史教授。四年前，她在中國度過了一個夏天，對毛夫人江青進行了長達60多個小時的采訪。她帶回來了對這位強大而神秘的女性的詳盡了解，還有許多照片，這些都將被整合到一本名為《紅都女皇》的書裏，將由Little, Brown在今年春季出版。
她在今晚也帶來了自己的知識和一些照片，現在與羅賓在紐約進行訪談。羅賓？）。
McNEIL: Professor Witke, simply, why is she under arrest -what`s the simple explanation?
ROXANE WITKE: Well, the overt explanation is that she plotted to seize power and caused the Chairman to die more quickly than he might have -- "nagged him to death." Of course, that`s not the only explanation. I think part of the explanation is that she possessed a great deal of power and the other people who were arrested with her did as well, particularly over the media -- over the press, over public opinion -- and that, through control of the performing arts, a very strong hand over literary policy, education policy: the realm of ideas, or what the Marxians call the "superstructure."
（McNEIL: Witke教授，簡單來說，她為什麽被拘留——簡單的解釋是什麽？
ROXANE WITKE: 嗯，顯而易見的解釋是她密謀奪權並導致主席比原本可能更快地去世——“折磨他致死”。當然，這並不是唯一的解釋。我認為部分解釋是她擁有極大的權力，和與她一同被逮捕的其他人一樣，尤其是對媒體、新聞、公眾輿論的控製。而且，通過對表演藝術的控製，在文學政策、教育政策上有著非常強大的影響：這涉及到思想領域，或者馬克思主義者所稱的“上層建築”）。補充評論：真是神奇，ChatGPT可以將教授所說的“Superstructure”翻譯成“上層建築”，我肯定翻不出來。
MacNEIL: Could you give us a kind of shorthand description which will help us through the rest of this conversation -- she represents a faction, sometimes called the radicals in China, and obviously the new Chairman, Hua, represents another faction, often called the moderates; what does this mean in terms we can understand?
WITKE: I think we have to start by saying that all of these leaders are committed to China`s material progress and modernization along certain lines; and I think that they`re all committed, basically, to Mao Tse-tung`s thinking, and to continuing the revolution -- no one wants to go back and restore the dynasty or restore the Republic or bring Chiang Kai shek`s errors into the country or bring capitalism into the country, despite the language of the press. The differences lie, I think, in priorities. People like Hua Kuo-feng apparently are more interested in state management, in bureaucratic control, in normal pragmatic progress, in industrialization, in agriculture. I think that the so called ``ideologs," or radicals, are also interested in that; but they are to a degree that we cannot, in this country, comprehend, concerned with ideological purity, with good thinking and good imagery on the part of the proletarians.
（MacNEIL: 你能給我們一個簡短的描述，幫助我們理解接下來的談話嗎——她代表一派，有時被稱為中國的激進派，而新的華主席也代表另一派，通常被稱為溫和派；這在我們可以理解的術語中意味著什麽？
WITKE: 我認為我們必須先說，所有這些領導人都致力於中國在某些方麵的物質進步和現代化；我認為他們基本上都堅持毛澤東的思想，繼續革命——沒有人想要回到恢複朝代或恢複共和國，或者把蔣介石的錯誤帶入那個國家，或者把資本主義帶入那個國家，盡管新聞報道的措辭如此。我認為分歧在於優先事項。像華國鋒這樣的人顯然更關心國家管理、官僚控製、正常的務實進步、工業化和農業。我認為所謂的“意識形態派”或激進派也對此感興趣；但是在某種程度上，我們美國無法理解，他們更關注意識形態的純潔性，關注無產階級的良好思想和形象）
MacNEIL: They`re worried about the souls of the people, are they?
WITKE: Oh, they don`t use that language -- not yet. No, they are concerned that people who were formerly poor, and still are basically poor, feel good; and that elitism on the part of any persons, whether they are more educated or more skilled in certain ways, does not make poor people, who are the 800,000,000 or so of the country, feel crummy -- feel inferior.
（MacNEIL: 他們關心人民的靈魂，是嗎？
WITKE: 哦，他們並不用那種語言——還沒有。不，他們關心的是，那些過去貧困，現在仍然貧困的人舒服。任何精英階層，無論是受教育程度更高或者更有技能的，他們都不希望讓這個約 8 億人口的國家的貧困人口感到自卑或沮喪）
MacNEIL: I see. Is Chiang Ching, now arrested, the sort of woman or person capable of having done the things she`s charged with doing -- plotting a coup, hastening her aged husband`s death, and so on?
WITKE: Yes, well, it`s hard for me to know who would have leaked the story of her hastening her aged husband`s death; there`s something apocryphal about that. As for plotting a coup, many coups have been plotted in Chinese history, from imperial times on down -or on up -- to revolutionary history. She was the near-victim of a coup launched by Lin Piao in 1971 and managed to escape that, and was still suffering from that when I met her in 1972 —the physical and psychological effects. So I suppose that she might have plotted a coup, but none of us know precisely; but that is a way of Chinese politics.
（MacNEIL: 我明白了。被逮捕的江青，她是那種能夠做出她被指控的事情的人嗎——密謀政變、加速她年邁丈夫的死亡等等？
WITKE: 我很難知道是誰泄露了她加速年邁丈夫死亡的消息；這件事有些虛構的成分。至於密謀政變，在中國曆史上，從帝製時代一直到革命曆史，都有許多政變被策劃過。她在 1971 年曾經是林彪發動政變的近期受害者，她設法逃脫了那場政變，並且在1972 年我見到她的時候，仍然受到了那次事件的身心影響。所以我想她可能曾經密謀政變，但是我們都不確定；但這是中國政治的一種方式）
MacNEIL: Jim?
LEHRER:. Yes, Professor Witke, let`s talk for a few minutes about Madame Mao, the person; first, some basic biography, beginning with her early life -- what was that like, as best as you could find out from her?
WITKE: The way she reconstructed it, she was born to a poor family; she was the daughter of a cartwright. She was the youngest of many children -- she didn`t care to talk about her family very much. She deplored her father; he was a wife-beater and a child-beater. She escaped home when she was 14 or 15, studied drama and acquired a profession of her own at a very early age, and managed herself from that time onward.
（MacNEIL問：吉姆？
Lehrer回答：是的，Witke教授，讓我們使用幾分鍾談一談毛主席夫人這個人。首先，談談她的基本傳記，從她的早年生活開始——你從她那裏了解到的最重要的是什麽？
Witke回答：根據她的描述，她出生在一個貧困家庭；她是一位cartwright（車匠？）的女兒。她是眾多子女中最小的一個——她不喜歡談論自己的家庭。她譴責她的父親；他是一位打妻子和孩子的人。她在14或15歲時離家出走，學習戲劇，並在很早的年紀就有了自己的職業，從那時起就開始獨立自主地生活）
LEHRER: She worked in a library for a while, did she not?
WITKE: Yes, I don`t think that was terribly important -- she punched cards, or something like that. At the time, she was an auditor at a university and she was listening to lectures by significant intellectuals who turned her on to ideas and foreign literature, encouraged her to try her hand at writing short stories and plays.
（LEHRER: 她不是在圖書館工作過一段時間嗎？
WITKE: 是的，我覺得那並不是非常重要——她曾打過卡片，或者類似的工作。當時，她在一所大學做過審計員，並且聽了一些重要知識分子的講座，這些講座讓她對各種想法和外國文學產生了興趣，他們鼓勵她嚐試寫短篇小說和劇本）。
LEHRER: When did she become a communist, while she was in college ?
WITKE: No, I don`t think we can say she was exactly in college. She was an auditor; she was too poor to go to college, and she takes pride in that, as Mao has, too, in having had very little formal education to have instead come up through the school of brigands that is, making your own way the hard way. She became communist through the underground in Tsingtao, in Shantung province in 1933.
（LEHRER: 她是在大學時期成為共產主義者的嗎？
WITKE: 不，我不認為她真的讀過大學。她當時是一名審計員；她太窮了，上不起大學，她為此感到自豪，就像毛澤東也為自己幾乎沒有正規教育而自豪，他是通過當土匪的艱難道路爬上來的。江青是在1933年通過山東省青島地下組織成為共產主義者的）。
LEHRER: So how old would she have been then?
WITKE: She was about 19.
（LEHRER: 那時她大約多少歲？
WITKE: 她大約19歲左右）
LEHRER: All right, then she went on to become an actress -she was already interested in drama -- of sorts.
WITKE: Yes.
（LEHRER: 好的，然後她開始成為一位演員——她對戲劇已經很感興趣了——某種程度上是嗎？
WITKE: 是的）。
LEHRER: What kind of career did she have, was she a big-name actress, small-name actress -- you tell me.
WITKE: She began doing acting of foreign-type dramas when she was very young, and also opera; then she went to Shanghai, which is like coming to New York and trying to make it on Broadway, and gradually she had some success in what were called "the great foreign bourgeois dramas," like dramas of Strindberg and Ibsen, and so forth. And that`s the kind of success she enjoyed; it was very good for her ego and for her career. But at the same time she was working in the underground as an actress in proletarian theater, people`s theater, a sort of street theater, experimental theater -- which was built around political messages. And she had other work at the same time, too, in the Party underground; she was working for the YWCA and the Communist Party at the same time one wonders whether each knew of her other employment.
(LEHRER: 她的職業是什麽？她是大名鼎鼎的演員，還是小有名氣的演員——你告訴我吧。
WITKE: 她很年輕的時候開始演出外國類型的戲劇，還有歌劇；然後她去了上海，就像來到紐約並試圖在百老匯闖出一片天地一樣，漸漸地她在所謂的“優秀的外國資產階級戲劇”中取得了一些成功，比如斯特林伯格和易卜生等人的戲劇。這是她享受到的成功類型；這對她的自信和職業生涯都非常有利。但同時，她也在地下組織以一個無產階級戲劇演員的身份工作，人民劇院，一種街頭戲劇，實驗性的戲劇——它們圍繞政治信息展開。同時她也在黨的地下組織中做其他工作；她同時為YWCA和共產黨工作，人們不禁懷疑她的每一份工作是否都知道她的其他雇主)。注明：YWCA是美國年輕女性基督教的組織，與共產黨完全不同的意識形態。
LEHRER: I see. Well, that kind of speaks a little bit to what a lot of people have said, that she was a very devious, tough woman. Is that the impression that you got when you talked to her? Anybody who could be a member of the-Communist Party and the YWCA at the same time....
WITKE: (Laughing.) Yes, that was quite clever. Yes, I was impressed with her power, not in the abstract but the way in which she managed people around her; and I could see the evidence of her power in the country over the performing arts and fine arts, and the imagery of the people. There`s no advertising in China, but there`s political advertising, or propaganda; and the style and presence of people in posters and postcards -- practically anything -- is very much affected by her. It`s what I would call a Sino-Western style. The people are Chinese, their build has become Western; it`s a little more grandiose and substantial than an ordinary Chinese person -- or a Chinese person of the past -- and to that is added a certain glamour, and I think that this comes from her Hollywood experience; that is, experience of a great many Hollywood films and her own experience in film.
（LEHRER: 我明白了。這有點符合很多人的說法，即她是一個非常狡猾和堅強的女人。你和她交談時有這樣的印象嗎？一個人能同時成為共產黨和YWCA的成員……
WITKE:（笑）是的，那確實相當聰明。是的，我對她的權術印象深刻，不是抽象的，而是她如何管理身邊的人；我能看到她在國家文藝和美術上的影響力，以及人們的意象。中國沒有廣告，但有政治宣傳；海報、明信片上人物的風格和形象——幾乎任何東西——都深受她的影響。這就是我所說的中西合璧的風格。這些人是中國人，但他們的形體已經變得更西化了；比起普通的中國人或過去的中國人，他們更加宏偉、更有實質感，加上一些魅力，我認為這來自她在好萊塢的經曆；也就是說，來自對許多好萊塢電影的經驗以及她自己在電影方麵的經曆）。
LEHRER: In, talking to her, did you get the impression that her marriage to Mao -- I think that was in 1939 -- was a most significant event in her life, or -- she`d been married twice before -- how did she talk about the marriage itself, or did she at all?
WITKE: She was not very interested in marriage; and of course, before one meets the wife of Mao Tse-tung you think about her marriage, or you think, perhaps, about previous marriages that she had. I used to think about that, and after being in her company for some time I forgot about the question. I asked one of her aides indirectly if she would care to talk about it, knowing that it might infuriate her, and I didn`t care to witness that, and she responded negatively to the question.
(LEHRER: 在和她交談中，你是否覺得她與毛澤東的婚姻——我記得是在1939年——是她一生中最重要的事件，還是說——她之前結過兩次婚——她是怎麽談論婚姻本身的，或者她是否談論過？
WITKE: 她對婚姻並不是很感興趣；當然，在見到毛澤東的妻子之前，你會考慮她的婚姻，或者你可能會考慮她之前的婚姻。我以前曾考慮過這個問題，但在和她在一起一段時間後，我就忘記了這個問題。我間接地問了她的一個助手她是否願意談論這個話題，因為我知道這可能會激怒她，而我不想看到那種情況，她對這個問題的回答是否定的)。
LEHRER: What did you ask her?
WITKE: I asked her if she would care to have the opportunity to speak about previous marriages.
（LEHRER: 你問了什麽問題？
WITKE: 我問她是否願意有機會談談之前的婚姻）。
LEHRER: Oh, I see.
WITKE: She didn`t care to have it.
（LEHRER: 哦，我明白了。
WITKE: 她並不在意談論）。
LEHRER: Right. What about her marriage with Mao?
WITKE: Well, that happened; it certainly wasn`t the most significant event in her life -- on her bio, so to speak -- but without that link, she would have had a fairly ordinary career, I suppose. It`s hard to say.
（LEHRER: 對了。那麽她和毛澤東的婚姻呢？
WITKE: 嗯，那件事發生了；從某種程度上來說，那並不是她一生中最重要的事件——就她的傳記而言——但如果沒有這個聯係，我想她的職業生涯可能會相當普通。這很難說）。
LEHRER: Did she speak in personal terms, the way wives are supposed to speak of their husbands, about Mao?
WITKE: Well, occasionally she remarked on certain of his habits, or the way he joshed her-about certain things -her having had so much bourgeois experience. She is much more knowledgeable in the arts, and she`s read many more novels and modern literature, and Russian literature and American literature and so forth -- French literature -- than Mao ever had; and I think that she lorded it over him a bit on that point. But she knew far less about ancient history, and they used to joke about that -- she remarked about that, or other habits that he had. But he was not her major subject of interest was any impression.
（LEHRER: 她在個人層麵上，像妻子一樣談論毛澤東嗎？
WITKE: 有時她會談論他的某些習慣，或者他拿她開玩笑——關於她曾有過很多資產階級的經曆之類的事情。她在藝術方麵更有知識，閱讀了更多的小說、現代文學、俄國文學、美國文學等等——還有法國文學——比毛澤東多得多；我覺得在這一點上她有點看不起他。但是她對古代曆史了解得遠遠不及他，他們常常開玩笑談論這一點——她會提到這個，或者提到他其他的習慣。但是毛並不是她主要感興趣的話題）
LEHRER: All right. Robin?
MacNEIL: So you wouldn`t classify her, then, as the traditional consort of a great main, the kind of intellectual concubine, perhaps, who drew her power only from him and her association with him?
WITKE: No.
LEHRER: 好的，Robin？
（MacNEIL: 那麽你不認為她是一個偉大男人的傳統伴侶，也就是那種隻從他和與他的關聯中獲得力量的知識女性，也許是智力上的姬妾？
WITKE: 不是）。
MaCNEIL: What gave you the feeling that she was her own person? That`s what I really want to know.
WITKE: She was quite imperious. When she spoke -- and she was unique in this respect among persons I spoke to in China -- I had the feeling that she had not asked anyone first whether it was all right to say that. She decided what was-correct, and she was not seeking permission from anywhere; of course, she was taking great risks in doing what she did.
（MaCNEIL: 是什麽讓你覺得她是獨立的個體？這才是我真正想知道的。
WITKE: 她相當專橫。當她講話時——在這一點上她與我在中國談過話的其他人不同——我感覺她並沒有先征求任何人的意見，就這樣說了出來。她決定什麽是正確的，她並不尋求任何地方的許可；當然，她這樣做冒著很大的風險）。
MacNEIL: In giving you these interviews, you mean.
WITKE: Yes; and saying so much about the past, but this was her only chance of getting this information out -- it had to go out of the country in order to get published. But her real interests, I think, were in controlling large numbers of people in power and in changing their lives -- not in Mao and his habits; certainly she respected his intellect very highly, and his method of revolution. She quoted no other revolutionary leader so prolifically as she did Mao. But her real interest lies in using the arts to change people`s consciousness.
（MacNEIL: 是指你們進行這些采訪時？
WITKE: 是的；並且談論了這麽多過去的事情，但這是她唯一能將這些信息傳出去的機會——這些信息必須離開國家才能被出版。但我認為她真正的興趣在於成為可以擁有很大的控製人的權力，改變他們的生活——而不是在毛和他的習慣上；當然，她非常尊重他的智慧，以及他的革命方法。在引用其他革命領袖方麵，她引用毛的數量是最多的。但她真正的興趣在於利用藝術改變人們的意識）。
MacNEIL: Why was it so important to her to get certain information out of the country?
WITKE: It`s not possible, in China, to publish a biography. You cannot write an autobiography in China and you cannot commission one to be published. When Mao was in Yenan in the late 1930`s, Yenan was open to some foreign journalists -- a variety of foreign journalists -- and Mao did give his story to Edgar Snow. Chiang Ching was not on the scene for a couple of years, until a couple of years after that had happened; so she had missed her opportunity, it was very clear, and this was her last chance.
（MacNEIL: 她為什麽如此重視將某些信息傳出國？
WITKE: 在中國，出版傳記是不可能的。你不能在中國寫自傳，也不能委托出版自傳。在1930年代後期毛澤東在延安時，延安對一些外國記者是開放的——各種各樣的外國記者——毛確實向埃德加·斯諾講述了他的故事。而江青在那段時間內並不在現場，直到那之後的幾年才進入，所以她錯過了機會，這是非常明顯的，也是她的最後機會）。
MacNEIL: And that would be discouraged so as not to encourage a cult of personality, or the egotistical satisfaction of having your own life story read by...
WITKE: Yes; the masses make history.
（MacNEIL: 那會被勸阻，以避免鼓勵個人崇拜或因為自己的生活故事被閱讀而滿足自我...
WITKE: 是的；群眾創造曆史）。
MacNEIL: I see. And what is significant in what she has told you, and you are going to publish, is just the details of her life story as she recounted them -- that`s the important thing, is it?
WITKE: Yes, I would say so; and struggles within the party, and how she`s had to fight for power, and how she won over cultural groups and how she taught herself music, for example, in order to write a symphony. She didn`t know how to play a clarinet or an oboe -- she learned. She taught herself, and people laughed at her. This was in the early 1960`s; she went to the Central Philharmonic Orchestra and told the conductor that she wanted to learn-the instrument so she could revolutionize his music. Of course, he was shocked.
（MacNEIL: 我明白了。她告訴你的內容，以及你將要出版的，最重要的就是她口述的生平細節，對嗎？
WITKE: 是的，我會這麽說；還有黨內的鬥爭，以及她為權力而鬥爭的經曆，以及她是如何贏得文化團體的支持，比如她自學音樂，為了創作交響樂。她不知道如何演奏單簧管或雙簧管——但她學會了。她自學，並且人們嘲笑她。這是在1960年代初期；她去了中央愛樂樂團，並告訴指揮家，她想學習樂器以便改革他的音樂。當然，他震驚了）。
MacNEIL: What was your relationship with her?
WITKE: I was her guest -- how also should I describe it? My relationship with her evolved...or I should say that my perception of it coalesced in the course of being with her two or three days before the interviews were over. I noticed, as she pointed out, she said that Mao used to criticize her for trying to do everything by herself. She should be more of a bureaucrat, he said, obviously joking, and she should learn how to delegate power. And so she pointed around the room to her various aides and doctors and so forth and said, "You see, I`ve surrounded myself with young people to whom I`ve delegated authority." And it was clear to me then that I was one of the people whom she had commissioned with a certain task.
(MacNEIL: 你和她的關係是怎樣的？
WITKE: 我是她的客人 — 這種關係該怎麽形容呢？我的關係隨著時間演變……或者我應該說，在接近采訪結束的兩三天裏，我對這種關係的看法逐漸清晰了起來。我注意到，正如她指出的那樣，她說毛過去常批評她試圖親力親為做所有事情。他開玩笑地說，她應該更像一個官僚，學會授權。於是她指著房間裏的助手和醫生等等說道：“你看，我圍繞自己和一些年輕人，給予他們權力。” 那時我明白了，我就是她委派了特定任務的人之一)。
MacNEIL: What do you suppose was her own personal motive in wanting to have this story told outside? How do you explain that to yourself?
WITKE: She has a strong sense of history. I think she was aware of the great risks she had taken in seeking such power as she possessed at that point and continued to possess, and there would be no other chance of her having her record set straight. And many of the people she had silenced or destroyed had published unfavorable stories about her past, and in the course of the cultural revolution a dossier was built up about her which was incriminating of her in many respects. And perhaps she thought that by having something published in a foreign country it would not be tampered with; it would be solid, in a sense. Of course, she didn`t make the task easy for me. She had to give me hints. She couldn`t say many things directly: If you read such an essay and see the point analogously, you`ll understand.
（MacNEIL: 你認為她想要把這個故事講出去，背後有什麽個人動機？你怎麽解釋這個情況？
WITKE: 她對曆史有著強烈的意識。我認為她意識到自己在追求權力時所承擔的巨大風險，尤其是她在那個時候擁有並一直保持著的權力。她意識到沒有別的機會能讓她的記錄得以真實地呈現。很多曾經被她整肅或摧毀的人發表了不利於她的言論，而在文化大革命期間，有一份她的檔案，從很多方麵都指控了她。也許她認為通過在外國出版一些東西，它就不會被篡改；在某種意義上，它會更加真實。當然，她也沒有讓這個任務變得簡單。她必須給我一些提示。她不能直接說很多事情：如果你讀了我的文章並類比其中的觀點，你就會明白的）。
MacNEIL: I see. She`s often described, I`ve read, as "resolute," as a person capable of taking her own fate in her hands; how does she show that, or how did she show that, in person?
WITKE: I`ve called her willful -- resolute, yes; extremely autonomous in her ways. She didn`t converse, really, with anyone; she made statements and conducted a monologue for hours on end, until three, four in the morning, starting a six or seven at night, breaking for a meal or perhaps a promenade or a game of pool, or something like that. But she was the sole mistress of the timing she would ask me how we should proceed, and so forth. I don`t think she really expected me to make the decision -- I always threw back the initiative to her. She was used to that.
（MacNEIL: 我明白了。我讀過她經常被描述為“堅決”的人，一個能夠掌握自己命運的人；她是如何展現這一點的，或者說她是如何在現實中展示這一點的？
WITKE: 我稱她為固執 — 是的，堅決，極其獨立。她真是不與任何人交談；她對我發表聲明，對我進行了數以小時的獨白，直到淩晨三四點，從晚上六七點開始，我們中間休息吃飯，或者散步，或者打一局台球，或者類似的事情。但她完全掌控著時間，她會問我，我們該如何繼續等等。我覺得她並不是真的期待我做決定 — 我總是將主動權交回給她。她習慣了這樣）
MacNEIL: Thank you. Jim?
LEHRER: You say that she wielded great power. What influence did she actually have, say, on society in China? Can you point to any particular things in the society there that changed as a result of her, specifically?
WITKE: Yes; well, let`s imagine that you were just an ordinary man on the street in Peking and you were in Peking in the early 1960`s. If that were the case, you could see a variety of movies on ancient and modern topics; you could see movies from foreign countries, you could see ancient and modern drama, you could see opera, you could listen to Chinese music. You might even listen to some Western symphonies at the same time. If you were a woman you might curl your hair and wear a dress, or if you were a man you might wear your hair rather long -- maybe the early `60`s is too early for that. There was a considerable freedom and cultural liberalism. And you might write a story of a type that you thought was fairly useful for the Revolution. Since the cultural revolution, all that ended. There are no foreign films in China. All the filmmakers who built up careers in the `30`s and the `40`s were silenced -- what "silenced" means I`m not sure -- and the only films and dramas to appear were those that were constructed by Chiang Chin...and symphonies. The so-called "model operas" and "model ballets -- there are about three model ballets and five or six model operas -- and these were designed really to establish classics for a new era. The Chinese are very historically minded, as you know, and I think that they have conceived of this particular regime or dynasty, whatever you`d like to call it -- a founders` regime -- as starting afresh, with ideas, views of the past and views of the future in conception of human nature; and to do that a new literature and a new drama and a new language has been conceived.
（MacNEIL: 謝謝。吉姆？
LEHRER: 你說她擁有巨大的權力。她實際上對中國社會有什麽影響？你能指出她具體導致了中國社會發生了哪些特定變化嗎？
WITKE: 是的，我們來想象一下，假設你是北京街頭的普通人，而且是在1960年代初期的北京。如果是這樣的話，你可以看到各種關於古代和現代主題的電影；你可以看到來自外國的電影，可以看戲劇，可以看戲曲，可以聽中國音樂。甚至可能聽到一些西方的交響樂。如果你是女性，你可能會弄卷發，穿裙子。如果你是男性，你可能留著比較長的頭發 — 或許60年代初期這些都還有可能。那時有相當多的自由和文化自由主義。你可能會寫一個你覺得對革命相當有用的故事。自文化大革命以來，所有這些都結束了。中國沒有外國電影。所有在30年代和40年代建立起職業生涯的電影製片人都被禁言了 — “禁言”是什麽意思我不太確定 — 出現的唯一電影和戲劇是由江青構建的……還有交響樂。所謂的“樣板戲”和“樣板芭蕾舞劇” — 大約有三個樣板芭蕾舞劇和五六個樣板戲 — 這些實際上是為了為新時代確立經典作品。中國人對曆史非常在意，你知道的，我想他們認為這個特殊的政權或朝代，無論你願意稱之為什麽 — 是一個創始人的政權 — 在觀念上重新開始，對過去和未來的觀點以及對人性的理解；為了實現這一點，他們構想出了新的文學、新的戲劇和新的語言）。
LEHRER: And she, literally, was the judge of all this, right, as to what was acceptable?
WITKE: She was the major animist behind this.
（LEHRER: 確切地說，她是這一切的裁判，對什麽是可接受的？
WITKE: 她是這一切背後的主要推動者）
LEHRER: Did she have any special problems rising to power, or getting all of this done that you just went through, because she was a woman?
WITKE: Yes, I would say of course she had. For one thing, never in Chinese history has a woman been an authority on culture; men have always been authorities on culture. She was formally an actress -- actresses were despised. Not until very recent years were actresses accepted, but it`s because they`ve been under very tight political control.
（LEHRER: 她在上台掌權或完成你剛剛提到的所有事情時，作為一個女性，是否遇到過特殊的問題？
WITKE: 是的，我可以說她當然遇到了。首先，在中國曆史上，從來沒有女性成為文化權威；男性一直是文化權威。她以前是一名女演員 — 女演員曾經備受鄙視。直到最近幾年，女演員才開始被接受，但這是因為她們一直受到非常嚴格的政治控製）。
LEHRER: Are the women of China liberated, in whatever comparative way you can give us -- compared, say, with society here, women in American society or Western society?
WITKE: It`s so hard to compare -- the same with men, it`s hard to compare men`s lib in China and America.. I think that women benefit from the expectation that they are to work, and that their marriages shouldn`t be a burden on them and that their children shouldn`t be a burden. And in that respect, they are liberated from many of the drags and extra responsibilities that women have in other countries.
（LEHRER: 中國的婦女在解放方麵如何，能否給我們做個比較 — 比如說，與美國或西方社會的婦女相比？
WITKE: 這很難比較 — 和男性一樣，在中國和美國男性解放方麵也很難比較。我認為婦女受益於人們對她們工作的期望，他們的婚姻不應成為負擔，他們的孩子也不應成為負擔。在這方麵，她們可以從許多其他國家婦女所麵臨的諸多困擾和額外責任中解放出來）。
LEHRER: So you don`t believe -- not in a big way, at least -- that the fact that Madame Mao is a woman kept her from accomplishing what she wanted to accomplish. Obviously, it didn`t, because look at all she did accomplish.
WITKE: Yes. You see, that was a revolutionary act in itself. No one in China, however, has ever commended her for doing all of that and being a woman, too; but there is no other woman among the Chinese leaders with an equal, or even nearly-equal power, that she has held. And so she has been unique in that respect. I don`t think that we can call her a straw in the wind of women`s liberation in China, necessarily.
（LEHRER: 所以你不認為 — 至少不是在很大程度上 — 毛夫人是一位阻止了她實現自己想要實現目標的女性。顯然不是，因為看看她所取得的成就。
WITKE: 是的。你看，這本身就是一個革命性的行為。然而，在中國，沒有人因為她是做了所有這些事情的女性而稱讚過她；但在中國領導人中，沒有其他女性具有像她擁有的同等甚至近乎相等的權力。因此，在這方麵，她是獨一無二的。我不認為我們必然可以說她是中國婦女解放風潮中的一個象征）。
LEHRER: She was just one of a kind, and there aren`t any others there...
WITKE: She`s one of a kind. She was married to the right man at the right time, with the right particular temper that she`s had, and training in the arts and extreme great skills in managing and manipulating people.
（LEHRER: 她隻是獨一無二的，那裏沒有其他人……
WITKE: 她是獨一無二的。她在恰當的時間找對了人結婚，加上她所具備的特質，以及她在藝術上的訓練和極其出色的管理和操縱人的技能）。
LEHRER: All right. Robin?
MacNEIL: In her account of modern Chinese history, did she say anything that startled you, or gave you a very fresh view, a reinterpretation that gave you a different view of the developments since the success of the Communist Party and the rise of Mao -- the victory over the Kuomintang, and so on?
WITKE: I wish I had an easy answer to that. My answers, or my reactions, were gradual in formulating. I think that one impression is that of the extraordinary power that the individual leaders have held, and what a personal government it has always been. Until recent years -- the last few years -- the same people have been more or less in control of the country, and they`ve known each other very well and they`ve managed very informally at the top; their particular titles have not been terribly important. And the correct line -- or the truth -- has always laid with Mao. What the difference now, of course, is that Mao is not there to re-establish what is the correct line and who are the deviationists from that line, with the result now that we find, only a few months ago T`ung Hsiao-ping, for example, as was Liu Shao-ch`i before him, maligned as a capitalist roture. Now, Chiang Ching, who was thought to be so ultra-left and radical and so forth, and pure proletarian has been called a capitalist roture. Well, what does capitalist roture" mean? It`s like calling a cat a cur -- it`s just names now. So I suppose what I`m so impressed by is how the leaders who have wanted to sustain power have used language in kind of directional signals about political terminology to support some and suppress others, and this goes on and on.
（LEHRER: 好的。羅賓？
MacNEIL: 在她關於現代中國曆史的描述中，有沒有什麽讓你震驚的事情，或者給了你一個非常新穎的觀點，一個讓你對對共產黨取得成功和毛澤東崛起以來的發展有了看法或重新解讀—包括對國共戰爭的勝利等等？
WITKE: 我希望能給出一個簡單的答案。我的回答或反應是逐漸形成的。我認為一個印象是個別領導人所持有的非凡權力，以及這是個一直以來都是個人統治的政府。直到最近幾年 — 最近幾年 — 同樣的人或多或少控製著那個國家，他們彼此非常了解，在高層管理非常不正式；他們的特定頭銜並不是非常重要。而確定的路線 — 或者說真相 — 總是掌握在毛澤東手中。現在當然的不同之處在於，毛澤東不在了，無法重新確立什麽是正確的路線，以及誰是偏離這條路線的人，結果現在我們發現，就在幾個月前，比如說鄧小平就像之前的劉少奇一樣，被誹謗為資本主義的走狗。現在，曾被認為是極端左派和激進主義者，純粹無產階級的江青，被稱為資本主義的走狗。那麽，“資本主義走狗”是什麽意思？這就像把貓叫做狗 — 現在隻是個名字而已。所以我想我所感到印象深刻的是，那些想要維持權力的領導人如何利用語言來給予某些人政治術語上的支持，以及壓製其他人，而這種情況一直在不斷地進行著）。
MacNeil: There are those in this country who appear to applaud her downfall in the sense that the victory of the other faction -the moderates, if you like, under Chairman Hua -- would be good for China`s relations with the United States. Do you have a view on that, yourself?
WITKE:I think that`s rather hard to say. As I perceive the rivalry now, it`s mainly over men and women, it`s over power positions and it`s over priorities and ideas in domestic development. The foreign consequences, I think, are rather hard to read.
（MacNeil: 在中國有些人似乎對她的倒台感到欣喜，因為是另一個派係的勝利 — 如果你願意，可以稱之為溫和派，在華主席領導下 — 對中國與美國的關係可能是有利的。你對此有什麽看法嗎？
WITKE：我認為這相當難說。就我現在看到的競爭來說，主要是關於男人和女人，關於權力地位，以及國內發展中的優先事項和觀念。我認為外交上的後果相當難以預測）。
MacNEIL: You don`t think that the period since the cultural revolution -- the various phases of that, of keeping China`s feet to the fire, ideologically -- introduced an element of irrationalism in the country, which made it less a part of the world community, if you like?
WITKE: Yes, but of course it`s only since the cultural revolution that Americans were welcomed in such droves to observe the wonders of the cultural revolution -- the barefoot doctors, the egalitarian schools, the happy children, and so forth. And the cultural revolution made China extremely attractive, too. One of the things I think we should watch for in China -- and this is an area which I find extremely interesting -- is what happens in the arts and in intellectual dissent; will there be intellectual dissent, or will there be a thaw in China, as there was after Stalin`s death, some years afterwards?
（MacNEIL: 你不認為文化大革命以來 — 在那之後的各個階段，對中國進行意識形態上的施壓 — 在那個國家引入了一種非理性因素，使其在某種程度上不再是世界社區的一部分？
WITKE: 是的，當然正是自文化大革命以來，美國人才看到如此大規模的文化大革命的奇跡 — 赤腳醫生，平等的學校，快樂的孩子等等。文化大革命也使中國變得極具吸引力。我認為我們應該密切關注中國的一個領域 — 這是一個我覺得非常有趣的領域 — 就是藝術和持不同觀點的異己知識分子發生了什麽；會有知識分子的異議嗎？或者中國會像斯大林去世後的幾年那樣出現解凍？）。
MacNEIL: And will there be a thaw towards the Soviet Union?
WITKE: Possibly, or just in terms of personal expression. The cultural revolution put wraps on that -- constrained people -- and Chiang Ching was as responsible as anyone for that. If she is overthrown, indeed overthrown, will her works and her policies be overthrown, and will there be more democratic expression in the country? It will be slight, whatever it is, but more.
（MacNEIL: 會不會對蘇聯也出現解凍？
WITKE: 可能，或者僅僅是在個人表達方麵。文化大革命對此施加了限製 — 約束了人們 — 而江青對此負有同樣的責任。如果她被推翻，確實被推翻了，她的作品和政策會不會被廢除，國家內會不會有更多民主表達？無論怎樣，程度都會很輕微，但會更多一些）。
MacNEIL: Do you have a view on that, or are you just in a position to ask the questions?
WITKE: I`m in a position to ask the questions.
（MacNEIL: 你對此有什麽看法，還是你隻是提問的立場？
WITKE: 我隻是提問的立場）。
MacNEIL: Jim?
LEHRER: Speaking of questions, I have one, too, about Madame Mao. What happens to her now? Assume that she`s overthrown, that she`s out of power - - what do the new Chinese leaders do with her?
Do they execute her? Do they send her to the United States A la Solzhenitsyn, or does she disappear and we never hear from her again?
WITKE: (Laughing.) San Clemente.
LEHRER: What do you think?
WITKE: I think if she were executed she might become a martyr; she has had a considerable following, though the following doesn`t control public opinion right now. She might be kept comfortably; I can`t her imagine her enjoying comforts, though. She might be poisoned, and her death might be attributed to natural causes; I doubt that she would be exiled.
（MacNEIL: 吉姆？
LEHRER: 談到問題，我也有一個關於毛夫人的問題。她現在會發生什麽？假設她被推翻，她失去了權力 — 新的中國領導人會怎麽對待她？他們會處決她嗎？會像索爾仲尼琴那樣將她送到美國，或者她會消失，我們再也聽不到她的消息？）。
WITKE: （笑了笑）San Clemente（不懂含義）。
（LEHRER: 你認為呢？
WITKE: 我覺得如果她被處決，她可能會成為一個烈士；她有相當多的追隨者，盡管這些追隨者目前並不能控製輿論。她可能會被舒適地軟禁；雖然我無法想象她享受舒適，但也有可能。她可能會被毒死，死因可能被歸因於自然原因；我懷疑她會被流放）。
LEHRER: Well, do you think it`s possible for her to ever -assuming they don`t execute her and they don`t give her poison -- do you think it`s ever possible for her to ever regain the power and influence that she once had, or has she had it?
WITKE: It wouldn`t be the same sort of thing. Of course, T`ung Hsiao-ping was criticized during the cultural revolution; he was banned from the environment -- abused -- and then he was submitted to some sort of thought reform and corrected, and brought out in Chou En-tai`s during the time he was ill. Chiang Ching told me that he was one of those who had received a pounding during the cultural revolution and that scar tissue was tougher than natural tissue, and persons like him were treasures to the people. Of course, his thought reform didn`t stick.
（LEHRER: 那麽，你認為她有可能重新獲得她曾經擁有的權力和影響力嗎？假設他們不處決她，不給她毒藥？
WITKE: 那不會是同樣的情況。當然，鄧小平在文化大革命期間受到批評；他被排斥在環境之外 — 遭到了虐待 — 然後他被進行了一些思想改造和糾正，並在周恩來時期被帶到公眾視野中，當時周恩來生病了。江青告訴我，鄧小平是在文化大革命中受到了抨擊的人之一，傷疤組織比天生的組織更堅韌，像他這樣的人是人民的財富。當然，他的思想改造沒有持續下去）。
MacNEIL: And now he`s gone again.
WITKE: Yes, but one hears rumors of his being back in the capital, perhaps waiting for another appointment.
（MacNEIL: 現在鄧小平又離開了。
WITKE: 是的，但有傳言說他回到了首都，也許在等待另一個任命）。
MacNEIL: Very quickly -- is the fact that they`re having to mount such a huge propaganda campaign against her and her colleagues` evidence that there are millions of Chinese who need persuading and re-education...
WITKE: Of course.
（MacNEIL: 很快地 — 他們不得不對她及她的同僚展開如此龐大的宣傳攻勢，這是否證明有數百萬中國人需要說服和重新教育...
WITKE: 當然）。
MacNEIL: ...and that she has considerable support still?
WITKE: If there is a movement, it`s in order to change mass opinion, and without the change of mass opinion, there`s no change of leadership.
（MacNEIL: …所以她仍然有相當大的支持？
WITKE: 如果有運動，那就是為了改變大眾輿論，而沒有大眾輿論的改變，就沒有領導層的改變）。
MacNEIL: We have to leave it there. Thank you very much. Thank you, Jim. Jim Lehrer and I will be back tomorrow evening. I`m Robert MacNeil. Good night.
（MacNEIL: 我們不得不到此為止了。非常感謝。謝謝你，吉姆。吉姆·勒爾和我明晚會再回來。我是羅伯特·麥克尼爾。晚安）。
9月9日 到 10月6日 隻有28天（4 周），你的算術還有待提高。